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Major1

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What I find odd was your comment after just being corrected. Unless I'm misunderstanding this reply, you still have it wrong. They (Lutherans and Anglicans) do indeed believe in the real presence in the Eucharist.

That is what I have said all along. The point is, Transubstantiation is a product of the RCC and is not a Biblical doctrine in any way.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines this doctrine in section 1376:

"The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: ‘Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation.’"

Those who follow that doctrine are doing so in the spirit and knowledge of the RCC and not the Word of God IMO. That is all I have argued on the subject. If anyone wants to believe this RCC doctrine then wonderful, do it. But it can not be done so on the claim that it is a Biblical doctrine.

The most serious reason transubstantiation should be rejected is that it is viewed by the Roman Catholic Church as a "re-sacrifice" of Jesus Christ for our sins, or as a “re-offering / re-presentation” of His sacrifice. This is directly in contradiction to what Scripture says, that Jesus died "once for all" and does not need to be sacrificed again.
 
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Major1

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So then if a "Mystery" is given a leash and allowed to run its course, it is like a river going down the mountain. It will always follow the path of least resistance and when a man in charge or a particular church is in command, the people who DO NOT KNOW what the mystery is, will follow it or him and the result in the past has always been a disaster.

John 17:17......
"Sanctify them with truth, for thy Word is truth".

No mystery there my dear friends.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Sigh .... no.

You are reading things into it. While not actually hearing what I AM saying. Presumably you wish to read these things into it.

In 2000 years it hasn't happened.
 
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~Anastasia~

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Incidentally, the "man in charge" is the reason we are a conciliar Church, as we have been since the time of the book of Acts.

No man can do such a thing. This is exactly why we are not in communion with the Pope of Rome.
 
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FenderTL5

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Erose

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This is where you are completely wrong. The Catholic Church DOES NOT view the Mass as a re-sacrifice. This is false, and complete misrepresentation of the teaching of the Catholic Church. We believe that it is a representation of the ONE sacrifice that Jesus gave at Calvary.
 
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All4Christ

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Ultimately, we believe it is the true Body and Blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit. That's the dogma.

The liturgy explains our Theology.

 
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Erose

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Incidentally, the "man in charge" is the reason we are a conciliar Church, as we have been since the time of the book of Acts.

No man can do such a thing. This is exactly why we are not in communion with the Pope of Rome.
You are no longer in communion with the Pope of Rome for other things, primarily political, and not this. The Pope of Rome does not have the authority to change or invent his own doctrines. Even the Pope of Rome will admit this. The office of St. Peter has always been a defense for the faith, and not the other way around. Again it boggles my mind, how falsely people see the Catholic Church.
 
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Major1

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One of us is wrong that is for sure. I have to say to you with all respect that I disagree with you.

Please follow the process with me and I hope it will help you understand what I am saying.
The term "Real Presence," when used by Roman Catholics, refers to Christ's physical presence in the form of the bread and the wine that have been transubstantiated into His literal body and blood.
Is that not correct??????

Now since that is the case, those who take part in this event of transubstantiation, they are in the presence of Christ himself, Catholics and others who do this then worship and adore the elements.
The Mass contains a series of rituals leading up to the Lord's Supper which also contains a reenactment of the sacrifice of Christ.

Furthermore, transubstantiation states that the substance of the elements are miraculously changed even though their appearance is not. In other words, the bread and wine will appear as bread and wine under close scientific examination, but the true substance is mystically the Body and Blood of Christ. Synonymous with Transubstantiation is the doctrine of the Real Presence.

The denominations who practice this doctrine, whether they be RCC, or Othodox or Luthern respond by saying that Jesus had instituted the new and everlasting covenant in which the sacrificed body and blood of Christ was reality. Therefore, because it was a new covenant, it was also the sacrificed body and blood. But this cannot work because the new covenant could not yet be instituted until after the death of Christ as the Scriptures state.

Heb. 9:15-16.................
"And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance. 16 For where a covenant is, there must of necessity be the death of the one who made it,".
 
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~Anastasia~

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Ultimately, we believe it is the true Body and Blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit. That's the dogma.

The liturgy explains our Theology.
You are making me want to be in the Liturgy!

Though we sing "One is Holy" at a slightly earlier point, and the people say the "amens" ... we have no Deacon.
 
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Major1

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Ultimately, we believe it is the true Body and Blood of Christ, changed by the Holy Spirit. That's the dogma.

The liturgy explains our Theology.

I completely understand your theology. My whole point all of this time is that any church has the ability to do what its members choose to do. However, it can not be claimed to be Biblical when it is not Biblical.
 
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All4Christ

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I completely understand your theology. My whole point all of this time is that any church has the ability to do what its members choose to do. However, it can not be claimed to be Biblical when it is not Biblical.
I'm not convinced that you understand our theology. We cannot do whatever our members choose to do. We must follow what has been upheld from the apostolic Church up through today. Nothing can and nothing does conflict with Scripture.

Holy Scripture is the center and most important part of Holy Tradition. Nothing can conflict, but we also can't just come up with our own interpretation.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I completely understand your theology. My whole point all of this time is that any church has the ability to do what its members choose to do. However, it can not be claimed to be Biblical when it is not Biblical.
Actually, you may not realize it, but you repeatedly demonstrate that you do not understand.

I won't speak for exactly what Catholics believe. I could be wrong. But when you lay out in the post as you did above and assume we believe all of that - well, we don't.

So I am sorry, but you really do not understand what we believe.

I'm not sure why you insist that you do? Except that you wish to dismiss it. That's really a strawman you are creating though.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I understand the difference of opinion. Forgive me.

I'm not sure this us the place to go into it. But I know that Catholics see their teaching as all rooted in the early Church. We disagree on what we see, very much so on the Filioque, and on the supreme authority of the Pope, for example, and there are historic examples we see to support our understanding. I'm quite sure Catholics see things differently, otherwise you wouldn't be Catholic. But I forgot that we do have that difference, and stated our own view.

We CAN go into those if you want, but I'm never looking to argue, so we can also drop it. But sometimes I forget to fully put myself in another's place when I reply.

And yes, there were certainly varied reasons we are not in communion with the Pope. But I think basically "doing their own thing and claiming authority to do so" is really the basic reason? Again, from our point of view. Forgive me, I know we won't see things in quite the same way.
 
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Major1

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Really?

With all due respect to you, you are the one who posted that most of your own faith's laity do not know what they believe.

You have stated that the process of Transubstantiation is a "mystery" to you.

I find it rather interesting that knowing all of that that you would say ..........
" but you repeatedly demonstrate that you do not understand."
 
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All4Christ

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I completely understand your theology. My whole point all of this time is that any church has the ability to do what its members choose to do. However, it can not be claimed to be Biblical when it is not Biblical.
I need to alter my previous statement. I know you don't completely understand our theology when you say what you say here. I know you think you understand it, but your description of what we believe and what we can do is inaccurate. Also, your understanding of what is Biblical is your interpretation.
She did not say that they do not know what they believe. She said they do not concern themselves with what other people believe. There is a big difference.

Don't misrepresent what she said.
 
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All4Christ

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Also, accepting something as being a mystery is not saying we don't know what we believe. It is accepting that we aren't told exactly how everything happens via Scripture.

Do you think the exact mechanics of the Holy Trinity is a mystery? Accepting some things as a mystery is accepting that we are human and aren't told exactly how everything works. We believe and we trust God. We have very strong beliefs but we don't try to define details that aren't necessary to define.

Don't accuse us of not knowing what our church teaches, just as we don't accuse you of not knowing what your church teaches.

We are, however, more authoritative sources on the Orthodox Church's beliefs, just as you are a more authoritative source on your church's beliefs.
 
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Erose

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Okay, much of this is correct, but you are missing a point here. The Mass, in Catholic belief and understanding, is the New Passover; and one cannot fully understand the Mass without a solid understanding of the Passover. Every Passover is a re-presentation of the original Passover, as Ex 12 points out. The language of the rituals used in the Passover, their intent, is to re-present the original Passover. To bring that which happened in the past to the present and to a certain extent to bring that which is in the present back into the past. The Mass is the same. In the Mass the Sacrifice of the Cross is re-presented upon the altar of the Church.
 
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Major1

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The actual comment from her in #366 was......................
"But no, I've never met an Orthodox layperson or clergy who concerned themselves overmuch. To be honest, most of our parish are cradle Orthodox, and they care so little that not only do they not really know the differences between us and Catholics, they don't even know the differences between us and Protestants, and most assume that Protestant is like a united denomination of sorts, as if all Protestants believed the exact same things."
 
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All4Christ

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Exactly. They don't concern themselves overmuch with the beliefs of others outside themselves. It was in the context of knowing what Protestants or Catholics believe, not in knowing what they believe.
 
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