Immaculate conception of Mary?

[Albion]

Can you offer any evidence for your claims?

Yes. As I suggested, you can easily look it up online.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yes. As I suggested, you can easily look it up online.

I have discovered that there are folks here who are either unwilling or unable to do their own research, especially when it might prove them wrong. Perhaps you might be willing to go the extra mile in this case and provide some links for him to read it for himself.

 

[Standing Up]

For the Roman Catholic Church the dogma of the Immaculate Conception gained additional significance from the reputed apparitions of Our Lady of Lourdes in 1858. At Lourdes a 14-year-old girl, Bernadette Soubirous, claimed that a beautiful woman appeared to her and said, "I am the Immaculate Conception". Many believe the woman to have been the Blessed Virgin Mary and pray to her as such.[47]

Pope Pius IX defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception "not so much because of proofs in Scripture or ancient tradition, but due to a profound sensus fidelium and the Magisterium".[48]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception

Albion looks spot on.

 

[Albion]

I have discovered that there are folks here who are either unwilling or unable to do their own research, especially when it might prove them wrong. Perhaps you might be willing to go the extra mile in this case and provide some links for him to read it for himself.

You're thinking that this is a case where it would make any difference? I haven't seen any hint of that, but I do agree with you that there are people who are openminded and also might need a little help with the sources.

 

[concretecamper]

Can you offer any evidence for your claims?

here is some stuff wayyyyyy before 1,100's.

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption." Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one." Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns." Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).

"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever." Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).


http://scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-II

 

[patricius79]

Barack Obama graduated from Columbia University, but that is merely like saying that Mary was immaculately conceived.

If you take the immaculate conception and conflate it with the person of Mary it is like taking the institution of education and conflating it with one of its alumni.

I don't see an analogy between Barak Obama graduating from Columbia University and the woman destined to be God's Mother being conceived immaculately.

 

[patricius79]

You're thinking that this is a case where it would make any difference? I haven't seen any hint of that, but I do agree with you that there are people who are openminded and also might need a little help with the sources.

Can you provide any specifics or evidence for your idea that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception "started" in the "Dark Ages"?

Or is this merely an oral tradition that you feel comfortable with?

 

[concretecamper]

Or is this merely an oral tradition that you feel comfortable with?

you hit the nail on the head!

 

[concretecamper]

I don't see an analogy between Barak Obama graduating from Columbia University and the woman destined to be God's Mother being conceived immaculately.

he was attempting to be clever....a rather poor attempt but a an attempt none the less.

 

[Albion]

Can you provide any specifics or evidence for your idea that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception "started" in the "Dark Ages"?

Read this from Christianity.com:

'In general Christians insist that any major doctrine must be clearly backed up by some Scripture. Catholics require the same. Yet, as the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture." Edward O'Connor, compiling a massive defense of the belief went even further, acknowledging that the idea was not even a tradition of the early church, coming to the fore about only 1100 AD.

According to O'Connor, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was "handicapped by the lack of any clear Scriptural evidence (or, even...any explicit patristic tradition) in its favor, but it even seemed to go counter to the clear teaching of St. Paul...and Christ's own declaration..."

What is more, many of the greatest fathers of the church and its "doctors," explicitly rejected the idea. How could this belief be accepted when it is not taught in Scripture, had at best a weak early tradition, and was explicitly rejected by theologians of the highest rank?

Although the early church recognized that God chose Mary for a special place in His plan, countless sources both east and west show that she was not considered sinless.

 

[Albion]

and here's an except from an article you can read at Catholic.org:

'This feast was introduced in the West around the 10th century, and it celebrates explicitly the Conception of Mary without original sin. The feast was extended to the universal calendar by Sixtus IV in 1476 with a very beautiful formulation, but sadly reduced to a simple memorial of the "Conception of Mary" in the Missal of 1570.'

 

[Albion]

Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia article:

"A feast of the Conception of the Most Holy and All Pure Mother of God was celebrated in Syria on 8 December perhaps as early as the 5th century. Note that the title of achrantos (spotless, immaculate, all-pure) refers to the holiness of Mary, not specifically to the holiness of her conception."

 

[Albion]

Here's part of the article in cogwriter.com:

"The older feast of the Conception of Mary (Conception of St. Anne), which originated in the monasteries of Palestine at least as early as the seventh century, and the modern feast of the Immaculate Conception are not identical in their object.

Originally the Church celebrated only the Feast of the Conception of Mary, as she kept the Feast of St. John’s conception, not discussing the sinlessness. This feast in the course of centuries became the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, as dogmatical argumentation brought about precise and correct ideas, and as the thesis of the theological schools regarding the preservation of Mary from all stain of original sin gained strength."

 

[patricius79]

Read this from Christianity.com:

'In general Christians insist that any major doctrine must be clearly backed up by some Scripture. Catholics require the same. Yet, as the Catholic Encyclopedia admits: "No direct or categorical and stringent proof of the dogma can be brought forward from Scripture." Edward O'Connor, compiling a massive defense of the belief went even further, acknowledging that the idea was not even a tradition of the early church, coming to the fore about only 1100 AD.

According to O'Connor, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was "handicapped by the lack of any clear Scriptural evidence (or, even...any explicit patristic tradition) in its favor, but it even seemed to go counter to the clear teaching of St. Paul...and Christ's own declaration..."

What is more, many of the greatest fathers of the church and its "doctors," explicitly rejected the idea. How could this belief be accepted when it is not taught in Scripture, had at best a weak early tradition, and was explicitly rejected by theologians of the highest rank?

Although the early church recognized that God chose Mary for a special place in His plan, countless sources both east and west show that she was not considered sinless.

And how do the assertions of Christianity.com show that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception "started" in the "Dark Ages"?

Do you have any actual evidence for your oral tradition?

 

[patricius79]

and here's an except from an article you can read at Catholic.org:

'This feast was introduced in the West around the 10th century, and it celebrates explicitly the Conception of Mary without original sin. The feast was extended to the universal calendar by Sixtus IV in 1476 with a very beautiful formulation, but sadly reduced to a simple memorial of the "Conception of Mary" in the Missal of 1570.'

And how does this show that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception "started" in the "Dark Ages"?

 

[patricius79]

Here's an excerpt from the Wikipedia article:

"A feast of the Conception of the Most Holy and All Pure Mother of God was celebrated in Syria on 8 December perhaps as early as the 5th century. Note that the title of achrantos (spotless, immaculate, all-pure) refers to the holiness of Mary, not specifically to the holiness of her conception."

How does this Wikipedia assertion support your oral tradition that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception "started" in the "Dark Ages"?

 

[patricius79]

Here's part of the article in cogwriter.com:

"The older feast of the Conception of Mary (Conception of St. Anne), which originated in the monasteries of Palestine at least as early as the seventh century, and the modern feast of the Immaculate Conception are not identical in their object.

Originally the Church celebrated only the Feast of the Conception of Mary, as she kept the Feast of St. John’s conception, not discussing the sinlessness. This feast in the course of centuries became the Feast of the Immaculate Conception, as dogmatical argumentation brought about precise and correct ideas, and as the thesis of the theological schools regarding the preservation of Mary from all stain of original sin gained strength."

Again, I'm looking for actual evidence for your idea that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception started in the Middle Ages.

Do you also claim that Protestantism started in the 1500s?

 

[Albion]

I put the evidence you requested right in front of your nose and you ask where it is.

I went the 'extra mile' since bbbbbbb suggested it and you acted like you had no idea what a Google search is; you responded by toying with me. So now the game is over.

 

[concretecamper]

And how does this show that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception "started" in the "Dark Ages"?

It doesn't. At least there was an attempt.

On the other hand....if O'Conner said it, it must be true. Too funny

 

[concretecamper]

Oh Mary conceived without sins, pray for us who have recourse to thee.