Immaculate conception of Mary?

[prodromos]

Well we disagree about that. But is it true that the Orthodox celebrate the Conception of Mary

Yes, and the conception of John the Baptist.

and see her as the New Eve, and as All-Holy?

Most holy and first among the saints. Only God is All-Holy. Yes to new Eve.

 

[patricius79]

Yes, and the conception of John the Baptist.

Most holy and first among the saints. Only God is All-Holy. Yes to new Eve.

So we agree that Mary is the New Eve. I thought that the Orthodox called Mary "Panagia", and I thought that meant "All-Holy".

I didn't know that you celebrate the conception of John the Baptist. We might, too. I'm not sure.

Since Mary is the New Eve, wouldn't she be without Original Sin, like the first Adam and Eve (before they fell), and like Christ our Lord, the New Adam?

 

[prodromos]

Since Mary is the New Eve, wouldn't she be without Original Sin, like the first Adam and Eve (before they fell), and like Christ our Lord, the New Adam?

No, why would you think that?

 

[patricius79]

No, why would you think that?

I noticed that you didn't respond to my question about whether the Orthodox call Mary "Panagia", which I think means "All-Holy".

As to your question, it would seem obvious that the New Eve would be completely unstained by Original Sin and any sin. Didn't the Church fathers like St. Ephrem and St. Germanus and St. Proclus teach that Mary was completely immaculate. I believe I read that St. Proclus said she was "formed without any stain of sin".

 

[prodromos]

I noticed that you didn't respond to my question about whether the Orthodox call Mary "Panagia", which I think means "All-Holy".

Since I had alresdy told you what it means, I did not think it necessary to respond again. Do you know Greek? If not, then what you think it means is immaterial.

As to your question, it would seem obvious that the New Eve would be completely unstained by Original Sin and any sin. Didn't the Church fathers like St. Ephrem and St. Germanus and St. Proclus teach that Mary was completely immaculate. I believe I read that St. Proclus said she was "formed without any stain of sin".

We believe that when Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit she was made pure.

 

[patricius79]

Since I had alresdy told you what it means, I did not think it necessary to respond again. Do you know Greek? If not, then what you think it means is immaterial.

Do you know Greek? What does "panagia" mean?

We believe that when Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit she was made pure.

But didn't St. Proclus say that she was "formed without any stain"?

I mean, even the first Eve was formed without Original Sin. Wouldn't the New Eve be formed without any stain? In other words, how could the New Eve be inferior to the first Eve in any way?

 

[prodromos]

Do you know Greek? What does "panagia" mean?

Yes. I told you already.

But didn't St. Proclus say that she was "formed without any stain"?

Doctrine is not formed on the basis of individual's statements

 

[laternonjuror]

Do you know Greek? What does "panagia" mean?



But didn't St. Proclus say that she was "formed without any stain"?

I mean, even the first Eve was formed without Original Sin. Wouldn't the New Eve be formed without any stain? In other words, how could the New Eve be inferior to the first Eve in any way?

Hello again,!! Councils.

For Traditional Anglicans the magisterium is Christ's Revelation,Scripture, the Bishops in Council,(Seven Ecumenical Councils.) The latter being guided as I understand by the Holy Ghost!
The Councils , at least three of them declared or defined the Lady Mary as the Mother of God, the Theotokos, telling us further that she is, Spotless , Immaculate and Ever Virgin . These things come to us from the teaching of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and has been a constant in the faith of the Church. There's no teaching for The Lady being immaculately conceived.

 

[patricius79]

Yes. I told you already.

I don't remember that. What does it mean?

Doctrine is not formed on the basis of individual's statements

No, but St. John Damascene also believed in the Immaculate Conception, didn't he?

 

[patricius79]

Hello again,!! Councils.

For Traditional Anglicans the magisterium is Christ's Revelation,Scripture, the Bishops in Council,(Seven Ecumenical Councils.) The latter being guided as I understand by the Holy Ghost!
The Councils , at least three of them declared or defined the Lady Mary as the Mother of God, the Theotokos, telling us further that she is, Spotless , Immaculate and Ever Virgin . These things come to us from the teaching of the One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church and has been a constant in the faith of the Church. There's no teaching for The Lady being immaculately conceived.

Amen to Mary being the Mother of God!

Amen to Mary being Spotless, Immaculate, and Ever-Virgin!

 

[prodromos]

I don't remember that. What does it mean?

Go back 10 posts
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/immaculate-conception-of-mary.7856209/page-14#post-68269319

No, but St. John Damascene also believed in the Immaculate Conception, didn't he?

What makes you say that?

 

[patricius79]

Go back 10 posts
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/immaculate-conception-of-mary.7856209/page-14#post-68269319

Hey Prodromos,

You are saying that "Panagia" means "Most-Holy", but NOT "All-Holy"?

What makes you say that?

Quotations I've seen from St. John Damascene, who called Mary the "Spotless Seed" He said, "O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew."

 

[patricius79]

On this night, the eve of the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (Dec 8), praise be to God for giving us Mary, the Immaculate Conception!

 

[bbbbbbb]

On this night, the eve of the Feast of the Immaculate Conception (Dec 8), praise be to God for giving us Mary, the Immaculate Conception!

I have always been puzzled by the conflation of the person of Mary with the method of her conception. It is rather like saying President Obama the Columbia University.

 

[patricius79]

I have always been puzzled by the conflation of the person of Mary with the method of her conception. It is rather like saying President Obama the Columbia University.

Why is it like saying President Obama is the Columbia University? Or why is being immaculately conceived a "method"?

 

[Albion]

I have always been puzzled by the conflation of the person of Mary with the method of her conception..

It is an interesting question, and I haven't been able to find the answer. Yes, it's easy to find when it started (Middle Ages), and what it means (Mary's conception, not Jesus'), and so on, but why she would be said to "be the" Immaculate Conception like that remains unexplained.

You know the mythology, I'm sure, where Mary is believed to have described herself that way during one of her apparitions (Lourdes, I think)...but this happened after the term was already in use.

 

[patricius79]

It is an interesting question, and I haven't been able to find the answer. Yes, it's easy to find when it started (Middle Ages),.

What do you mean, exactly, when you say that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception started in the Middle Ages? When exactly did it start in your mind, and who exactly started it, and how?

 

[Albion]

What do you mean, exactly, when you say that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception started in the Middle Ages?

It is recorded as starting during the Dark Ages and becoming well established around AD1100, which would be the time when Chivalric Romance and the 'Cult of the Virgin' were in full force. If you check your own church's saints, sources, and websites you'll see that this is the case.

 

[patricius79]

It is recorded as starting during the Dark Ages and becoming well established around AD1100, which would be the time when Chivalric Romance and the 'Cult of the Virgin' were in full force. If you check your own church's saints, sources, and websites you'll see that this is the case.

Can you offer any evidence for your claims?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Why is it like saying President Obama is the Columbia University? Or why is being immaculately conceived a "method"?

Barack Obama graduated from Columbia University, but that is merely like saying that Mary was immaculately conceived. If you take the immaculate conception and conflate it with the person of Mary it is like taking the institution of education and conflating it with one of its alumni.

Immaculate conception is one means (or method, if you will) of conception. It is not at all a normal means, as I am sure you agree.