Immaculate conception of Mary?

[patricius79]

I put the evidence you requested right in front of your nose and you ask where it is.
.

Would you also claim that Protestantism "started" in the 1500s?

Maybe you could give one or two pieces of your best evidence and explain why they support your oral tradition that belief in the Immaculate Conception began in the Middle Ages.

 

[prodromos]

Albion is correct.
The feast day celebrating the conception of Mary started much earlier, but it was not until much later that the name was changed by the Catholic Church to the feast of the "immaculate conception". Similarly they changed the feast of the dormition of Mary to the assumption of Mary and we now have the situation where many Catholics actually refuse to believe she actually died, despite the fact that their Church celebrated the fact for centuries.

 

[concretecamper]

Albion is correct.
The feast day celebrating the conception of Mary started much earlier, but it was not until much later that the name was changed by the Catholic Church to the feast of the "immaculate conception".

Good grief, now we are playing word games. The teaching that Mary was free from Original Sin can be found in the earliest teachings of the Church. Just because the term "Immaculate Conception" wasn't used until much later is inconsequential.

 

[patricius79]

Albion is correct.
The feast day celebrating the conception of Mary started much earlier, but it was not until much later that the name was changed by the Catholic Church to the feast of the "immaculate conception"..

Albion's claim was not that the Catholic Church changed the name of the feast, but that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception "started" in the Middle Ages.

As far as the Feast of the Conception of Mary... do you think Mary's Conception was holy before this Feast of her Conception was celebrated?

Also, when--from the Eastern Orthodox perspective--did the Church's primary name become "Orthodox" rather than "Catholic"?

Here is some of the evidence--as cited by concretecamper--that the early Church did believe in the Immaculate Conception:


"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one."Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).

"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever." Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).


http://scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-II

 

[justinangel]

It is an interesting question, and I haven't been able to find the answer. Yes, it's easy to find when it started (Middle Ages), and what it means (Mary's conception, not Jesus'), and so on, but why she would be said to "be the" Immaculate Conception like that remains unexplained.

Ignorance is bliss!

The Holy Virgin is herself both an honourable temple of God and a shrine made pure, and a golden altar of whole burnt offerings. By reason of her surpassing purity [she is] the Divine incense of oblation ( = προθέσεως),and oil of the holy grace, and a precious vase bearing in itself the true nard; [yea and] the priestly diadem revealing the good pleasure of God, whom she alone approacheth holy in body and soul. [She is] the door which looks eastward, and by the comings in and goings forth the whole earth is illuminated. The fertile olive from which the Holy Spirit took the fleshly slip (or twig) of the Lord, and saved the suffering race of men. She is the boast of virgins, and the joy of mothers; the declaration of archangels, even as it was spoken: "Be thou glad and rejoice, the Lord with thee"; and again, "from thee"; in order that He may make new once more the dead through sin.
Gregory Thaumaturgus, Homily concerning the Holy Mother of God (ante A.D. 270)

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother."
Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370)

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin."
Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388)

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."
Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446)

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."
Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446)

"The very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary."
Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521)

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay."
Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650)

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation."
Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733)

"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever."
Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733)

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew."
John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749)

"To be deep in history, is to cease being Protestant."
Cardinal John Henry Newman

You know the mythology, I'm sure, where Mary is believed to have described herself that way during one of her apparitions (Lourdes, I think)...but this happened after the term was already in use.

Are all the 7,000 officially recorded miracles that have occurred at Lourdes since the time of Mary's apparitions a myth?

St. Bernadette of Lourdes died 16 April 1879. This is how her body reposes today.

What is a myth is the idea that the Anglican Church was founded by Christ the King. History proves otherwise.

 

[Albion]

Ignorance is bliss!

Yes, I often think that as I read the posts directed to me.

Some posters appear not even to know what "Medieval" or "Dark Ages" mean as terms, while others are absolutely convinced that if something is similar to what they're arguing for, well, it must be the same thing! Most of the passages you quoted are examples of that.

 

[patricius79]

Yes, I often think that as I read the posts directed to me.

Some posters appear not even to know what "Medieval" or "Dark Ages" mean as terms, while others are absolutely convinced that if something is similar to what they're arguing for, well, it must be the same thing! Most of the passages you quoted are examples of that.

I'm glad you agree that that some in the early Church believed similarly to those who believe in the Immaculate Conception.

Apparently there is no evidence that belief in the Immaculate Conception "started" in the Dark Ages.

Do you think Protestantism "started" in the 1500s?

St. Augustine wrote:

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."


I don't know how one could claim that St. Augustine DIDN'T believe in the Immaculate Conception, when he preached about Original Sin and its profound weakening of our will, yet AT THE SAME TIME categorically insisted that Mary never sinned.

 

[prodromos]

Albion's claim was not that the Catholic Church changed the name of the feast, but that the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception "started" in the Middle Ages.

As far as the Feast of the Conception of Mary... do you think Mary's Conception was holy before this Feast of her Conception was celebrated?

Also, when--from the Eastern Orthodox perspective--did the Church's primary name become "Orthodox" rather than "Catholic"?

Here is some of the evidence--as cited by concretecamper--that the early Church did believe in the Immaculate Conception:


"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one."Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary." Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother." Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).

"O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides." Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin." Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin." Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).

"As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain." Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made." Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary." Jacob of Sarug (ante A.D. 521).

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay." Theotokos of Livias, Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6 (ante A.D. 650).

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation." Andrew of Crete, Sermon I, On the Birth of Mary (A.D. 733).

"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all, not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as excelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever." Germanus of Constantinople, Marracci in S. Germani Mariali (ante A.D. 733).

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew." John of Damascus, Homily I (ante A.D. 749).


http://scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#tradition-II

For your homework, please provide the greater context for all of the above quotes, ie. links to each of the texts which have been referenced.

 

[patricius79]

For your homework, please provide the greater context for all of the above quotes, ie. links to each of the texts which have been referenced.

Are you having trouble looking them up?

As far as the Feast of the Conception of Mary... do you think Mary's Conception was holy before this Feast of her Conception was celebrated?

Also, when--from your perspective--did the Church's primary name become "Orthodox" rather than "Catholic"?

 

[prodromos]

Are you having trouble looking them up?

Why? Are you?
I'm not going to waste my time looking them up as I was not the one who put them out there in the first place. Since you present them as evidence, it is incumbent on you to provide the means for others to read them in their context.

As far as the Feast of the Conception of Mary... do you think Mary's Conception was holy before this Feast of her Conception was celebrated?

As holy as the conception of St John the Baptist, which the Church also celebrates.

Also, when--from your perspective--did the Church's primary name become "Orthodox" rather than "Catholic"?

The Church was referred to as Orthodox a number of times prior to the schism.

 

[patricius79]

Why? Are you?
I'm not going to waste my time looking them up as I was not the one who put them out there in the first place. Since you present them as evidence, it is incumbent on you to provide the means for others to read them in their context.

As holy as the conception of St John the Baptist, which the Church also celebrates.

The Church was referred to as Orthodox a number of times prior to the schism.

I don't think you and i are very scholarly, but we both believe that we are members of the one Church.

Do the Orthodox believe that the Conception of the Mother of God is no holier than the conception of St. John the Baptist?

I believe that the Conception of Mary is holier than the holiness of all the saints together.

 

[concretecamper]

I find it very curious thay many saints venerated by the Orthodox claim Mary was Immaculate, pure, without stain.....what has changed?

 

[patricius79]

I find it very curious thay many saints venerated by the Orthodox claim Mary was Immaculate, pure, without stain.....what has changed?

I don't know this for sure, but I suspect that there are many Orthodox who still believe that Mary was always Immaculate.

I believe that the Orthodox priest, John Meyendorff said that the Byzantines probably would have accepted the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception if they had believed in Original Sin the way the West does.

 

[justinangel]

Yes, I often think that as I read the posts directed to me.

Some posters appear not even to know what "Medieval" or "Dark Ages" mean as terms, while others are absolutely convinced that if something is similar to what they're arguing for, well, it must be the same thing! Most of the passages you quoted are examples of that.

It is the same thing, but only expressed in different terms. I suppose the best you can do is make up a convenient argument against the historical facts which refute your blind conjecture.

 

[justinangel]

The Church was referred to as Orthodox a number of times prior to the schism.

With a capital O? The Church Fathers drew distinctions between orthodox and unorthodox teachings in their apologetic works and used the word to qualify the true faith, but it doesn't appear that any of them called the Church "Orthodox". What they unanimously did do was call the Church "Catholic" with a capital C.

http://scripturecatholic.com/the_church.html#scripture_II

 

[prodromos]

I find it very curious thay many saints venerated by the Orthodox claim Mary was Immaculate, pure, without stain.....what has changed?

Nothing has changed, you simply read their statements through the lense of the Latin doctrine regarding "original sin", thus you understand them differently.

I take it no one is willing to provide links to the works those quotes have been taken from. Why does this not surprise me.

 

[prodromos]

With a capital O?

Yes, with a capital O.

What they unanimously did do was call the Church "Catholic" with a capital C.

Are you sure about that? It seems to me that "catholic" wasn't used as a noun for a very long time.

 

[Albion]

It is the same thing, but only expressed in different terms. I suppose the best you can do is make up a convenient argument against the historical facts which refute your blind conjecture.

"Blind Conjecture" That's a good one, especially since I provided the references, including from Roman Catholic sources, showing that I was right.

 

[justinangel]

"Blind Conjecture" That's a good one, especially since I provided the references, including from Roman Catholic sources, showing that I was right.

What references might those be?

 

[justinangel]

Yes, with a capital O.

Citations, please.

Are you sure about that? It seems to me that "catholic" wasn't used as a noun for a very long time.

I'm absolutely sure. I provided a link which lists the writings of the East and West Church Fathers. Obviously you ignored it.