Imagery in Revelation, what should it be based on?

[grafted branch]

When satan is thrown down from heaven knowing his time was "short", he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male offspring, and then made war against the women's offspring (those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus).
Revelation 12:12, 13, 17 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you, knowing he has only a short time.” And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. And the dragon was enraged at the wo man, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

One point I would make here is that those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus fits both, people during the old covenant and new covenant because Jesus’s testimony is seen throughout the Old Testament.

The gospel of John confirms satan would be cast out and coming at the ascension of Christ.
John 12:31-32 Now judgment is upon this world; now the prince of this world will be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”
John 14:30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

I think John 14:30 can be argued that it was referring to Satan, after he entered Judas, coming for Jesus. So certainly we know the location of Satan at that time, which was in Judas, but I’m not sure this verse means Satan is coming into or for this world.

When I look at John 12:31-32 it appears to agree with Revelation 12:9-10. In Revelation 12:4 the dragon stood before the woman which was ready <3195 mello> to be delivered. I understand this to be Mary just prior to giving birth to Christ. If the woman is Mary and her flight into Egypt is the 1,260 days in Revelation 12:6, and Revelation 12 is in chronological order, then the woman in verse 13 which brought forth the man child doesn’t seem to be the same woman in verse 4.

So what I see is some kind of parallelism going on. Verses 3-4 have the stars of heaven being cast to the earth. Verses 4-6 have the woman fleeing into the wilderness to get away from the dragon. Verses 7-9 have war and again have what’s in heaven (Satan and his angels) being cast down to the earth. Verses 13-14 again have the woman fleeing into the wilderness. Verse 17 again has a war.

If Revelation 12 is the same group of events being repeated then Satan is cast to the earth once, which would mean that when the dragon drew a third part of the stars and cast them to the earth Satan was also cast down at that time. And if Satan is cast out of heaven prior to the birth of Christ then I would say the “cast out” in John 12:31-32 would be cast into the bottomless pit. In Luke 2:30 Simeon said “mine eyes have seen thy salvation” this passage could be what’s in view in Revelation 12:10 where it says “now is come salvation”.

The NT confirms that satan worked in the sons of disobedience, deceived by masquerading as an angel of light, acquired followers, prowled like a lion looking to devour, obstructed the apostles from preaching to the gentiles, had authority pergamum where antipas was killed, and many antichrists had appeared, all in the 1st century.
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience.
2 corinthians 11:14-15 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions.
1 timothy 5:15 For some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
1 Peter 5:8 Be sober-minded and alert. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
1 timothy 2:18 For we wanted to come to you—indeed I, Paul, tried again and again—but Satan obstructed us.
Revelation 2:13 I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits. Yet you have held fast to My name and have not denied your faith in Me, even in the day when My faithful witness Antipas was killed among you, where Satan dwells.
1 john 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

I completely agree with this happening in the first century; however there is a problem with how to define the word Satan<4567>. In Mark 4:15 it says “Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts”. Unless Satan is omnipresent this verse has to be referring to Satan as something other than a single spiritual entity. I think Satan in this verse is referring to the Adamic nature, similar to the phrase in Mark 8:33 get thee behind me Satan. I don’t think Peter was being called Satan or that Satan entered Peter as he did Judas.

In Revelation 20 the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan gets bound, I would say this is referring to a single spiritual entity. So I’m not certain the verses you’ve listed provide conclusive evidence of whether Satan was bound or not.

Now, notice, the apostles believed they were living in the last days, that Christ's parousia was at hand, and that the crushing of satan was soon to occur
Acts 2:16-17 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out My Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
1 corinthians 10:11 now these things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
1 peter 4:7 The end of all things has drawn near. Therefore be clear-minded and sober, so that you can pray.
Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, Christ would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
1 john 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.
James 5:8-9 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming has drawn near. 9Do not complain about one another, brothers, so that you will not be judged. Look, the Judge is standing at the door!
Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christe be with you.

I agree.

Based on this, I would argue that satan's release from the pit for a little season, in revelation 20, to gather those for battle against the saints is the same as satan's short time, in revelation 12, to make war against the saints following his casting out of heaven at Christ's ascension.

Additionally, I would agree that the 1,000 years must brought to completion prior to satan's little season. Therefore, I would argue the 1,000 years is not the "church age", but the resurrection of Christ and fulfillment of the davidic oath.

I have looked at a literal 1,000 years occurring from David to Christ. One of the problems I have with this is that once Satan is bound the nations are no longer deceived. The Davidic covenant can’t be what’s in view concerning the deception of the nations because that covenant is unconditional and Satan does deceive once again after the 1,000 years.

An argument can be made for Satan’s deception starting with Adam and Eve however I don’t think this is the deception of the nations. I think the deception of the nations started with Babylon and has to do with the beast kingdoms in Daniel. I would say that Satan used the nations for his purposes and he even offered them to Jesus in the wilderness. Which leads me to think Satan was bound from using his authority over the nations to destroy Jerusalem until 66 AD; then after 70 AD the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord.

I know there are issues with my view but I’m still studying it. In your view what is the deception that Satan is bound from during the 1,000 years?

 

[DavidPT]

In your view what is the deception that Satan is bound from during the 1,000 years?

This has to be the key right here as to how to determine when the thousand years are meaning. Simply find an era of time consisting of at least a thousand years or more from the time of the 1st coming through today, where no satanic deception of any kind happened at all involving nations. But, if one can't find such an era of time such as that, maybe there is a good reason why? That being that the thousand years haven't even begun yet.

Let's look at something here, something I have pointed out in the past.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

I doubt that anyone would apply this passage to a time period post the 2nd coming. That means this is something that precedes the 2nd coming or that the 2nd coming puts a stop to these sorceries. This says---for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived---can't imagine satan not being involved in this somehow. One thing is obvious then, none of these events pertaining to Revelation 18:23 can occur while satan is bound since that contradicts the fact that Revelation 18:23 indicates all nations were deceived at the time, something satan is prevented from doing while bound, that being deceiving the nations.

No one can deny, or at least shouldn't if they do, satan deceives the nations, not only once, but twice. We need to factor that in.

The question is, what is Revelation 18:23 pertaining to? Does what is recorded in Revelation 18:23 lead to him being bound, thus so he can deceive the nations no more for awhile, or is Revelation 18:23 pertaining to something he does once he is loosed after the thousand years, that being, once again he deceives the nations?

If the latter, as of Revelation 18:23, we are then at the end of the story in regards to satan since this would indicate he gets thrown into the LOF next. If the former, we are not at the end of the story yet, in regards to satan. He first has to get bound a thousand years, then loosed so that he can go out and deceive the nations once again, followed by his demise in the LOF.

 

[grafted branch]

This has to be the key right here as to how to determine when the thousand years are meaning. Simply find an era of time consisting of at least a thousand years or more from the time of the 1st coming through today, where no satanic deception of any kind happened at all involving nations. But, if one can't find such an era of time such as that, maybe there is a good reason why? That being that the thousand years haven't even begun yet.

Let's look at something here, something I have pointed out in the past.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

I doubt that anyone would apply this passage to a time period post the 2nd coming. That means this is something that precedes the 2nd coming or that the 2nd coming puts a stop to these sorceries. This says---for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived---can't imagine satan not being involved in this somehow. One thing is obvious then, none of these events pertaining to Revelation 18:23 can occur while satan is bound since that contradicts the fact that Revelation 18:23 indicates all nations were deceived at the time, something satan is prevented from doing while bound, that being deceiving the nations.

No one can deny, or at least shouldn't if they do, satan deceives the nations, not only once, but twice. We need to factor that in.

The question is, what is Revelation 18:23 pertaining to? Does what is recorded in Revelation 18:23 lead to him being bound, thus so he can deceive the nations no more for awhile, or is Revelation 18:23 pertaining to something he does once he is loosed after the thousand years, that being, once again he deceives the nations?

If the latter, as of Revelation 18:23, we are then at the end of the story in regards to satan since this would indicate he gets thrown into the LOF next. If the former, we are not at the end of the story yet, in regards to satan. He first has to get bound a thousand years, then loosed so that he can go out and deceive the nations once again, followed by his demise in the LOF.

In Revelation 18:23 it’s Babylon’s sorceries that deceived the nations. While it certainly could be that Satan works through Babylon and Babylon works through sorceries to deceive the nations; I don’t think Satan being bound wouldn’t necessarily prevent Babylon from continuing to use sorceries to deceive. Just as the arrest of an organized crime kingpin doesn’t prevent crimes from continuing.

So unless the Adamic nature itself is bound, deception can occur but if there is no Adamic nature in the 1,000 year period then a garden of Eden type of millennium has to occur which then leads to whether the knowledge of good and evil gets removed and so on.

I personally see far too many problems with the Adamic nature being bound in Revelation 20. So I think deceiving will occur in the millennium, it just won’t be Satan himself deceiving.

As you pointed out Satan’s deception (whatever we think it is) stops for the 1,000 year period then starts back up and continues for the little season. I think this is one of the difficult areas for the Amil view of Satan being bound from allowing the gospel to reach the nations; not that my own view doesn’t have its problems, I just don’t see Satan being bound having to do with salvation. I think tribulationsigns held the view that it will be impossible for anyone else to get saved during the little season because the fullness of the Gentiles occurs just prior to it but I don’t know if anyone else on this forum agreed with that.

 

[DavidPT]

I think tribulationsigns held the view that it will be impossible for anyone else to get saved during the little season because the fullness of the Gentiles occurs just prior to it but I don’t know if anyone else on this forum agreed with that.

I have reasoned along those lines as well, that that would have to be the logic if Amils are correct about the meaning of the first resurrection. It's the only thing that makes logical sense if Amils are correct that the first resurrection involves being born again.

Revelation 20 makes it crystal clear that every single person who has part in the first resurrection, they all reign with Christ a thousand years. Assuming that the first resurrection involves being born again, and assuming some are born again during satan's little season, that is a contradiction to what the first resurrection is supposed to involve, that being that everyone having part in the first resurrection, they reign with Christ a thousand years.

Obviously, no one can reign with Christ a thousand years during satan's little season if that thousand years are already in the past. Therefore, assuming Amil is the correct position, either they are understanding the first resurrection incorrectly, or that no one can be saved during satan's little season would have to be the logical conclusion to arrive at if they are understanding the first resurrection correctly.

 

[grafted branch]

I have reasoned along those lines as well, that that would have to be the logic if Amils are correct about the meaning of the first resurrection. It's the only thing that makes logical sense if Amils are correct that the first resurrection involves being born again.

Revelation 20 makes it crystal clear that every single person who has part in the first resurrection, they all reign with Christ a thousand years. Assuming that the first resurrection involves being born again, and assuming some are born again during satan's little season, that is a contradiction to what the first resurrection is supposed to involve, that being that everyone having part in the first resurrection, they reign with Christ a thousand years.

Obviously, no one can reign with Christ a thousand years during satan's little season if that thousand years are already in the past. Therefore, assuming Amil is the correct position, either they are understanding the first resurrection incorrectly, or that no one can be saved during satan's little season would have to be the logical conclusion to arrive at if they are understanding the first resurrection correctly.

All I can say is ever time I think I solve one eschatology problem area it creates several other problems that are not easily explained. Like I said earlier I’m still studying so I really don’t have a complete cohesive view.

 

[DavidPT]

All I can say is ever time I think I solve one eschatology problem area it creates several other problems that are not easily explained. Like I said earlier I’m still studying so I really don’t have a complete cohesive view.

As to me since I see all of these things involving events, regardless in what sense one should take these events to mean, they still involve chronology. One event leads to another event. That doesn't mean that there are not parallels in Revelation where the same event is shown from different angles. But even so, these events are still chronological, regardless. For instance, no reasonable person would conclude that satan's little season happens first, followed by the thousand years. The same logic has to apply of all of the other events recorded in Revelation.

For instance, the 7 trumpets. The events involving the 7th trumpet don't happen first, or even second or even third, they happen last. IOW, mathematically speaking, 1 comes before 2, 2 comes before 3, etc, therefore, the events recorded in trumpet 1 happen first, followed by the events recorded in trumpet 2, so on and so. Even if the events concerning trumpet 2 are shown from different angles, thus parallel, they are still chronological since 2 still comes after 1 and before 3, regardless.

By me reasoning things in a chronological manner like this, this has led me to conclude that the thousand years follow the 2nd coming, not precede it. This for one is proved via the following in Revelation 20:4---and I saw the souls of them--which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


Obviously, the thousand years precede the little season, and in a thousand years context we are informed, what I submitted from Revelation 20:4, which means that the beast that was still in the pit at the time John saw these visions, it has emerged from the pit in order to be behind the martyrdom I submitted from Revelation 20:4. Not only has that beast emerged, a 2nd beast coming out of the earth has also emerged. IOW, their martyrdom is meaning during the 42 month reign of the beast, and that they were martyred before the thousand years even begin. The 42 month reign of the beast only makes sense post a time John seeing these visions. The thousand years still have to follow this 42 month reign. Therefore, satan's little season is not even involving the beast that ascends out of the pit. That beast already ascended out of the pit before the thousand years even begin, thus is no longer in the picture once the thousand years begin, let alone after the thousand years expire.

 

[DavidPT]

I wanted to add to my last post in regards to what I concluded about the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, since I know many will have a dispute with that, mainly Amils. It makes perfect sense unless what is recorded in Revelation 20:4 concerning the following is a total lie---and I saw the souls of them--which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Anybody that is familiar with Revelation should super easily grasp that their martyrdom is pertaining to the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13. Which then means both beasts have to emerge first, obviously. Anyone that is familiar with Revelation(and we all are actually), yet denies this fact that the 2 beasts have to emerge first, their interpretation is making John out to be a liar in Revelation 20:4, since he plainly stated that they were martyred because they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--as to this part---neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--this is not even possible until a 2nd beast emerges from the earth first. That is easily proved per the following.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Clearly, there is no image or mark to get over until a beast rises out of the sea first, and another out of the earth, and that Revelation 13:15 and 16 are all fulfilled first. It is not reasonable, IMO, to think that the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4 that I submitted above, that none of that even involved the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13.

And if it does involve the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13, which it does, regardless that some disagree, this means that the beast that was in the pit when John saw these visions, the same beast that is to ascend out of the pit at a later time in history, it has already ascended out of the pit before the thousand years begin and not instead after the thousand years finish like many Amils mistakenly insist.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

This has to be the key right here as to how to determine when the thousand years are meaning. Simply find an era of time consisting of at least a thousand years or more from the time of the 1st coming through today, where no satanic deception of any kind happened at all involving nations. But, if one can't find such an era of time such as that, maybe there is a good reason why? That being that the thousand years haven't even begun yet.

Let's look at something here, something I have pointed out in the past.

Revelation 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

I doubt that anyone would apply this passage to a time period post the 2nd coming. That means this is something that precedes the 2nd coming or that the 2nd coming puts a stop to these sorceries. This says---for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived---can't imagine satan not being involved in this somehow. One thing is obvious then, none of these events pertaining to Revelation 18:23 can occur while satan is bound since that contradicts the fact that Revelation 18:23 indicates all nations were deceived at the time, something satan is prevented from doing while bound, that being deceiving the nations.

No one can deny, or at least shouldn't if they do, satan deceives the nations, not only once, but twice. We need to factor that in.

The question is, what is Revelation 18:23 pertaining to? Does what is recorded in Revelation 18:23 lead to him being bound, thus so he can deceive the nations no more for awhile, or is Revelation 18:23 pertaining to something he does once he is loosed after the thousand years, that being, once again he deceives the nations?

If the latter, as of Revelation 18:23, we are then at the end of the story in regards to satan since this would indicate he gets thrown into the LOF next. If the former, we are not at the end of the story yet, in regards to satan. He first has to get bound a thousand years, then loosed so that he can go out and deceive the nations once again, followed by his demise in the LOF.

Are you willing to even consider that your understanding of what it means for Satan to "deceive the nations" may be incorrect? You assume that it's talking about his ability to deceive at all. Is that really what it means? I don't believe so.

What impact do you believe Christ's death and resurrection had on Satan? Please answer this question. I've asked you and other premils this question a number of times in the past and I never get an answer. Do you not think passages like the following could have something to do with Satan's binding?

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Passages like these make it clear that Christ's death and resurrection had a tremendous impact on Satan. This is undeniable. Before Christ came, Satan was able to keep most of the world (except for Israel) in spiritual darkness and kept in bondage to their fear of death. As Hebrews 2:14-15 indicates, he formerly had the power of death over people and they were completely deceived and had no knowledge of the truth. They were "without hope and without God in the world".

But, once Christ came and died on the cross and rose again, that all changed. Christ's death and resurrection brought hope to the world. Christ's death broke "the power of him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil". Christ came to "destroy the devil's work" and He did not fail. That is what Satan's binding is about. Christ took away Satan's ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness and from having the hope of eternal life. Satan could not prevent the spread of the gospel of Christ from going out into the world. He was bound from doing so. Your understanding that his binding keeps him from doing anything at all is simply not what his binding is about.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I wanted to add to my last post in regards to what I concluded about the martyrs recorded in Revelation 20:4, since I know many will have a dispute with that, mainly Amils. It makes perfect sense unless what is recorded in Revelation 20:4 concerning the following is a total lie---and I saw the souls of them--which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Anybody that is familiar with Revelation should super easily grasp that their martyrdom is pertaining to the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13. Which then means both beasts have to emerge first, obviously. Anyone that is familiar with Revelation(and we all are actually), yet denies this fact that the 2 beasts have to emerge first, their interpretation is making John out to be a liar in Revelation 20:4, since he plainly stated that they were martyred because they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--as to this part---neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--this is not even possible until a 2nd beast emerges from the earth first. That is easily proved per the following.

Revelation 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Revelation 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Clearly, there is no image or mark to get over until a beast rises out of the sea first, and another out of the earth, and that Revelation 13:15 and 16 are all fulfilled first. It is not reasonable, IMO, to think that the martyrdom recorded in Revelation 20:4 that I submitted above, that none of that even involved the 2 beasts recorded in Revelation 13.

And if it does involve the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13, which it does, regardless that some disagree, this means that the beast that was in the pit when John saw these visions, the same beast that is to ascend out of the pit at a later time in history, it has already ascended out of the pit before the thousand years begin and not instead after the thousand years finish like many Amils mistakenly insist.

We've been over this before multiple times. In order for what you're saying here to be correct, "the sea" in Revelation 13:1 would have to be the same thing as "the pit" or "abyss" in Revelation 20. Please give me any evidence that you may have to prove that "the sea" is the same as "the pit". And please tell me why it doesn't just refer to "the pit" in Revelation 13:1 instead of "the sea", keeping in mind that "the pit" is referred to as, you know, "the pit" in Revelation 9, 17 and 20. Why would it be referred to as "the sea" instead of "the pit" in Revelation 13:1? Was John trying to confuse people or is "the sea" something different than "the pit"?

I think it makes more sense to understand "the sea" as referring to the sea of humanity rather than to the pit where spirit beings dwell. It can be seen as being equivalent to the many waters that the woman who rides the beast sits on which symbolically refer to "peoples, and multitudes, and nations and tongues".

Revelation 17:1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters: 2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. 3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns...15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

 

[grafted branch]

Anybody that is familiar with Revelation should super easily grasp that their martyrdom is pertaining to the two beasts recorded in Revelation 13. Which then means both beasts have to emerge first, obviously. Anyone that is familiar with Revelation(and we all are actually), yet denies this fact that the 2 beasts have to emerge first, their interpretation is making John out to be a liar in Revelation 20:4, since he plainly stated that they were martyred because they had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--as to this part---neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands--this is not even possible until a 2nd beast emerges from the earth first. That is easily proved per the following.

When I look at Revelation 20:4 the souls of them that were beheaded doesn’t mean that they are simply martyred. The word beheaded <3990> means to chop off as with an axe. So I associated this with verses such as Matthew 3:10 where the axe is laid unto the root of the trees.


Let’s suppose that Revelation 20:4 is still future to us and Christians know that if they are beheaded rather than accept the mark of the beast they will be the ones living and reigning with Christ.

First of all the mark of the beast can’t be something that true believers will disagree about; else a true believer might inadvertently accept the mark which is an impossibility. Currently there are hundreds if not thousands of ideas on what the mark will be.

Second the Antichrist or false prophet will surely be aware of Revelation chapters 13 and 20. He could easily set up medical clinics and order Christians to go, declare their allegiance to Christ, given an anesthetic, and then physically beheaded. All this could be done in a simple painless way for believers. For those who refuse to go to the clinics they would be shot and therefore not live and reign with Christ. You now have a scenario where believers will be rewarded for obeying the Antichrist.​

I have a hard time believing and understanding how the Premil view can work.

 

[DavidPT]

When I look at Revelation 20:4 the souls of them that were beheaded doesn’t mean that they are simply martyred. The word beheaded <3990> means to chop off as with an axe. So I associated this with verses such as Matthew 3:10 where the axe is laid unto the root of the trees.


Let’s suppose that Revelation 20:4 is still future to us and Christians know that if they are beheaded rather than accept the mark of the beast they will be the ones living and reigning with Christ.

First of all the mark of the beast can’t be something that true believers will disagree about; else a true believer might inadvertently accept the mark which is an impossibility. Currently there are hundreds if not thousands of ideas on what the mark will be.

Second the Antichrist or false prophet will surely be aware of Revelation chapters 13 and 20. He could easily set up medical clinics and order Christians to go, declare their allegiance to Christ, given an anesthetic, and then physically beheaded. All this could be done in a simple painless way for believers. For those who refuse to go to the clinics they would be shot and therefore not live and reign with Christ. You now have a scenario where believers will be rewarded for obeying the Antichrist.​

I have a hard time believing and understanding how the Premil view can work.

The way I tend to understand it, there are two groups of martyrs in Revelation 20:4, which can be shown in Revelation 6 and the 5th seal, and that they are martyred in different eras of time.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The two groups of martyrs in Revelation 20:4--

1) them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God

2) and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

In Revelation 6, 1) above is referring to these martyrs---I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held---which might include martyrs such as Stephen since he would have been martyred during a time when the beast was still in the pit.

In Revelation 6, 2) above is referring to these martyrs--their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled---and that they are martyred when the beast is no longer in the pit---IOW, this little season the martyrs under the altar are to rest for, this is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast back on earth. Yet, this can't be meaning the same little season after the thousand years though, if Revelation 20:4 is already informing us that this 42 months precede the beginning of the thousand years, the fact the martyrs in 2) can't be martyred for those reasons unless 2 beasts have already emerged first, one out of the sea and another out of the earth.

 

[claninja]

I have looked at a literal 1,000 years occurring from David to Christ. One of the problems I have with this is that once Satan is bound the nations are no longer deceived. The Davidic covenant can’t be what’s in view concerning the deception of the nations because that covenant is unconditional and Satan does deceive once again after the 1,000 years.

I’m not saying, nor do I believe, that the 1,000 years of revelation 20 are a literal period from David to Christ. I only believe the 1,000 years allude to it.

within the vision of revelation 20, the 1,000 years begin with Satan bound and end with Satan released to make war on the saints. Within the vision of revelation 20, the first resurrection = those living and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years. I think it’s important to notice that the first resurrection is not separate from the 1,000 years.

I view revelation 20 Within the context of the gospel and epistolic narrative: Satan is bound, cast out, and coming to make war in the saints all in association with Christ’s ministry, death, and resurrection.

therefore, since I believe the first resurrection should be interpreted as Christ’s resurrection, I interpret the 1,000 years in association with Christ resurrection, which, I would argue, is an allusion to the fulfillment of the Davidic oath. See Peter’s sermon on Christ’s resurrection fulfilling the Davidic oath (acts 2:30-32).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Assuming that the first resurrection involves being born again, and assuming some are born again during satan's little season, that is a contradiction to what the first resurrection is supposed to involve, that being that everyone having part in the first resurrection, they reign with Christ a thousand years.

Obviously, no one can reign with Christ a thousand years during satan's little season if that thousand years are already in the past. Therefore, assuming Amil is the correct position, either they are understanding the first resurrection incorrectly, or that no one can be saved during satan's little season would have to be the logical conclusion to arrive at if they are understanding the first resurrection correctly.

You're talking as if you think Christ stops reigning when the thousand years are over. Do you think Christ stops reigning when the thousand years are over? We know that can't be the case because scripture says He will reign forever (Isaiah 9:7). So, to me, saying that Amil can't be true unless no one is saved during Satan's little season is like saying that Christ stops reigning when the thousand years are over. But, it's Satan being loosed that marks the end of the thousand years (Rev 20:3,7), not the end of Christ's reign. I see no reason to think that there will be a period of time before the end of time where no one can be saved.

Also, this isn't just a dilemma for Amils. What is the Premil understanding of what occurs during Satan's little season? Do you think that anyone will be saved during that time? It seems like that is what you believe since you apparently only see people reigning with Christ during the thousand years and not after that.

 

[DavidPT]

Are you willing to even consider that your understanding of what it means for Satan to "deceive the nations" may be incorrect? You assume that it's talking about his ability to deceive at all. Is that really what it means? I don't believe so.

The first thing that needs to be determined, what is being meant by nations? How should we be understanding that? How are nations being used in other portions of Revelation? Let's look at some other places.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

What about a verse like this? Should one take this to mean---who was to rule all Gentiles with a rod of iron---which would indicate that this doesn't include the Jews as well.

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.


What about this verse? Should one take this to mean---for all Gentiles shall come and worship before thee--which then excludes any Jews as well.


It seems to me then, based on these two scriptures alone, nations in Revelation appear to be made up of both Jews and Gentiles, and not just one or the other instead. IOW, nations in Revelation 20 are not just about Gentiles as most Amils are known to insist.

What impact do you believe Christ's death and resurrection had on Satan? Please answer this question. I've asked you and other premils this question a number of times in the past and I never get an answer.

The binding in Revelation 20 is not permanent, it is only temporary, regardless when it is meaning. Your question then doesn't make sense to me in relation to his binding. But as to the impact Christ's death and resurrection had on satan, it means satan's days are numbered. Eventually he's going to be cast into the LOF since Christ defeated him at the cross, and that He rose soon after. This doesn't mean that there is no impact on satan in the meantime, but it would have zero to do with his binding since he doesn't stay bound until he is cast into the LOF. When he is loosed, assuming that happens in this age, in what way would Christ's death and resurrection be impacting satan during that period of time?

Do you not think passages like the following could have something to do with Satan's binding?

Hebrews 2:14 Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death.

1 John 3:8 The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.

Colossians 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Passages like these make it clear that Christ's death and resurrection had a tremendous impact on Satan. This is undeniable. Before Christ came, Satan was able to keep most of the world (except for Israel) in spiritual darkness and kept in bondage to their fear of death. As Hebrews 2:14-15 indicates, he formerly had the power of death over people and they were completely deceived and had no knowledge of the truth. They were "without hope and without God in the world".

But, once Christ came and died on the cross and rose again, that all changed. Christ's death and resurrection brought hope to the world. Christ's death broke "the power of him who holds the power of death--that is, the devil". Christ came to "destroy the devil's work" and He did not fail. That is what Satan's binding is about. Christ took away Satan's ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness and from having the hope of eternal life. Satan could not prevent the spread of the gospel of Christ from going out into the world. He was bound from doing so. Your understanding that his binding keeps him from doing anything at all is simply not what his binding is about.

What do those passages mean to you once satan is loosed, though? That assuming he is bound and loosed in this age. As for me, I'm not seeing a connection, at least not yet anyway.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The way I tend to understand it, there are two groups of martyrs in Revelation 20:4, which can be shown in Revelation 6 and the 5th seal, and that they are martyred in different eras of time.

Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The two groups of martyrs in Revelation 20:4--

1) them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God

2) and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands

In Revelation 6, 1) above is referring to these martyrs---I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held---which might include martyrs such as Stephen since he would have been martyred during a time when the beast was still in the pit.

In Revelation 6, 2) above is referring to these martyrs--their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled---and that they are martyred when the beast is no longer in the pit---IOW, this little season the martyrs under the altar are to rest for, this is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast back on earth. Yet, this can't be meaning the same little season after the thousand years though, if Revelation 20:4 is already informing us that this 42 months precede the beginning of the thousand years, the fact the martyrs in 2) can't be martyred for those reasons unless 2 beasts have already emerged first, one out of the sea and another out of the earth.

Now, wait a minute here. I've never seen you explain your view this way before. Before, you've always given the impression that you believe the ones who John saw that reign with Christ are only those who are martyred by the beast. And since you see the beast as only killing Christians in the future, you've used that as a way to try to disprove Amil which claims that the reign of Christ began almost 2,000 years ago.

But, now you are including even Stephen among the souls that John saw who live and reign with Christ. That's exactly what Amil believes as well. We believe that all Christian martyrs from all time are the ones who John saw and the ones he said live and reign with Christ. I don't understand how you can conclude that Amil can't be true when you agree with Amil that the souls John saw included all Christian martyrs going back to Stephen.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The first thing that needs to be determined, what is being meant by nations? How should we be understanding that? How are nations being used in other portions of Revelation? Let's look at some other places.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

What about a verse like this? Should one take this to mean---who was to rule all Gentiles with a rod of iron---which would indicate that this doesn't include the Jews as well.

Revelation 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.


What about this verse? Should one take this to mean---for all Gentiles shall come and worship before thee--which then excludes any Jews as well.


It seems to me then, based on these two scriptures alone, nations in Revelation appear to be made up of both Jews and Gentiles, and not just one or the other instead. IOW, nations in Revelation 20 are not just about Gentiles as most Amils are known to insist.

You lost me. I truly have no idea of what you're talking about here. You're definitely not talking about anything this Amil believes. It looks like you're making something simple into something convoluted. Even though the Greek word "ethnos" is translated as "nations" in Revelation 20, that is not the best translation of the word. In Revelation 20:8 it indicates that the number of the "ethnos" is "as the sand of the seashore". That can't refer to nations. The Greek word "ethnos" can also mean "people" or "heathen". Since they number as the sand of the seashore, it makes a lot more sense to translate the word that way instead of as "nations". And people or heathen can obviously be Jew or Gentile. I'm not so sure that you're right that most Amils insist that the nations refer to Gentiles.

The binding in Revelation 20 is not permanent, it is only temporary, regardless when it is meaning. Your question then doesn't make sense to me in relation to his binding. But as to the impact Christ's death and resurrection had on satan, it means satan's days are numbered. Eventually he's going to be cast into the LOF since Christ defeated him at the cross, and that He rose soon after. This doesn't mean that there is no impact on satan in the meantime, but it would have zero to do with his binding since he doesn't stay bound until he is cast into the LOF. When he is loosed, assuming that happens in this age, in what way would Christ's death and resurrection be impacting satan during that period of time?

Did you not read the verses I quoted and what I said about my understanding of Christ's impact on Satan? It doesn't seem like you did. If you did then I don't believe you would be asking me these questions because I already covered what you're asking about.

You are coming across as though you don't think Christ's death and resurrection had any impact on Satan during this New Testament period of time because the only thing you said regarding Christ's death and resurrection's impact on Satan is that it means Satan's days are numbered. Are you saying that the only impact that you believe Christ's death and resurrection had on Satan was to make it so that his days were numbered? If not, then please tell me what impact you believe His death and resurrection, and the subsequent preaching of the gospel of Christ, has had on Satan. You can refer to the passages I quoted for help in answering the question if you want.

What do those passages mean to you once satan is loosed, though? That assuming he is bound and loosed in this age. As for me, I'm not seeing a connection, at least not yet anyway.

It means that the gospel will be restricted during Satan's little season. It is more difficult to preach the gospel during that time without running into opposition. And it means that wickedness will not be restrained by the Holy Spirit during that time. I believe Paul refers to that time in 2 Thess 2 where he wrote about a time when wickedness would no longer be restrained.

The reason you're not seeing a connection is because you assume that a depiction of a dragon being bound with a chain in a pit/prison somehow has to correlate with a literal binding of a spirit being (Satan) to the extent that he is not able to do anything at all.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I’m not saying, nor do I believe, that the 1,000 years of revelation 20 are a literal period from David to Christ. I only believe the 1,000 years allude to it.

within the vision of revelation 20, the 1,000 years begin with Satan bound and end with Satan released to make war on the saints. Within the vision of revelation 20, the first resurrection = those living and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years. I think it’s important to notice that the first resurrection is not separate from the 1,000 years.

I view revelation 20 Within the context of the gospel and epistolic narrative: Satan is bound, cast out, and coming to make war in the saints all in association with Christ’s ministry, death, and resurrection.

therefore, since I believe the first resurrection should be interpreted as Christ’s resurrection, I interpret the 1,000 years in association with Christ resurrection, which, I would argue, is an allusion to the fulfillment of the Davidic oath. See Peter’s sermon on Christ’s resurrection fulfilling the Davidic oath (acts 2:30-32).

If only you knew how little sense your view makes to the vast majority of us.

Anyway, the thousand years is clearly a time period during which Christ reigns and Satan is bound. And even though it's not a literal thousand years, it is a time period with a beginning and an end, which you seemed to acknowledge when you said "the 1,000 years begin with Satan bound and end with Satan released".

You associate that time with "Christ's ministry, death, and resurrection". So, whether you acknowledge it or not, you are turning the "thousand years" into about 3 years. It obviously makes no sense to think that "a thousand years" could figuratively represent 3 years, even though I know that's not exactly what you're claiming. But, you instead try to say that the thousand years alludes to the time period from David to Christ, which makes no sense whatsoever since the text makes no allusion to that time period at all. Instead, it refers specifically to a time period during which Christ reigns and Satan is bound. That is what the thousand years refers to and not some other time period like the time period from David to Christ.

You have something in common with Premils in terms of your literal understanding of Satan's binding. Even though you are Amil, you understand his binding diffently from most Amils. Amils, including myself, typically see Satan's binding as having to do with his inability to stop the spread of the gospel of Christ throughout the world which gives the hope of eternal life to the world along with the chance to be set free from the fear of death, which was not possible before Christ died for our sins and rose again (Heb 2:14-15, Eph 2:11-13).

 

[claninja]

If only you knew how little sense your view makes to the vast majority of us.

satan being bound, cast out and making war with the saints as a result of Christ’s fulfillment of the Davidic oath through his resurrection makes no sense to you?

Anyway, the thousand years is clearly a time period during which Christ reigns and Satan is bound. And even though it's not a literal thousand years, it is a time period with a beginning and an end, which you seemed to acknowledge when you said "the 1,000 years begin with Satan bound and end with Satan released".

within the context of literally reading the parable/vision, yes, in the vision the 1,000 years is literally a period of time that begins with Satan being bound and ends with Satan making war on the saints. During the 1,000 years the first resurrection occurs, which = those living and reigning with Christ

You associate that time with "Christ's ministry, death, and resurrection". So, whether you acknowledge it or not, you are turning the "thousand years" into about 3 years. It obviously makes no sense to think that "a thousand years" could figuratively represent 3 years, even though I know that's not exactly what you're claiming. But, you instead try to say that the thousand years alludes to the time period from David to Christ, which makes no sense whatsoever since the text makes no allusion to that time period at all. Instead, it refers specifically to a time period during which Christ reigns and Satan is bound. That is what the thousand years refers to and not some other time period like the time period from David to Christ.

Within the context of the vision, the first resurrection = those living and reigning with Christ for 1,000 years.

Now, Not from literally reading the vision, but instead what/who do you “interpret” the first resurrection as?

You have something in common with Premils in terms of your literal understanding of Satan's binding.

how so? Can you elaborate by what you mean?

 

[Timtofly]

I have a hard time believing and understanding how the Premil view can work.

Being beheaded for avoiding the mark is more about being removed from the Lamb's book of life, than a Millennial reign with Crist. Those who take the mark will never be named in the Lamb's book of life. They are removed permanently. The mark is not accidental, nor for any other purpose.

The reason why amil reject the 1000 years in regards to the mark fact is because of two different resurrections. Amil claim they have to happen at the same time. These people are not even killed at the same time or the same way. I doubt the beheading will last the whole 42 months. The mark will start appearing immediately at the time of desolation. Those having the mark who even last the whole 42 months, will still die at Armageddon. It is these people who stay dead in Death for 1000 years.

Those who were beheaded are resurrected immediately following Armageddon. They do not wait to be resurrected more than 42 months. They were only beheaded during the previous 42 months.

 

[grafted branch]

Being beheaded for avoiding the mark is more about being removed from the Lamb's book of life, than a Millennial reign with Crist. Those who take the mark will never be named in the Lamb's book of life. They are removed permanently. The mark is not accidental, nor for any other purpose.

The reason why amil reject the 1000 years in regards to the mark fact is because of two different resurrections. Amil claim they have to happen at the same time. These people are not even killed at the same time or the same way. I doubt the beheading will last the whole 42 months. The mark will start appearing immediately at the time of desolation. Those having the mark who even last the whole 42 months, will still die at Armageddon. It is these people who stay dead in Death for 1000 years.

Those who were beheaded are resurrected immediately following Armageddon. They do not wait to be resurrected more than 42 months. They were only beheaded during the previous 42 months.

Let’s look at the Premil problem of front-running.

Front-running is trading stock or any asset by a broker who has inside knowledge of a future transaction that is about to affect its price substantially. Front-running is a form of deception and since the Premil positon believes that Satan is not yet bound, Satan is certainly aware of it and most likely the instigator of front-running.

Our souls can be looked at as the assets that are going to be involved with a future transaction. According to Premil Satan is not yet bound from anything so he knows what is written in Revelation. Revelation says nothing about faux marks of the beast. So why wouldn’t the Antichrist have multiple marks of the beast with only one of them being genuine? Wouldn’t he be trying to front-run by getting as many believers to receive the mark?

And what about a scenario where Antichrist would make it illegal to behead anyone thus there would be no beheaded souls or only a few souls who were beheaded illegally living and reigning with Christ? It seems to me that Satan tried to front-run Christ’s first coming but because it was not a physical kingdom that was going to be established, Satan failed. If the Premil position is correct then Satan will be successful at front-running Christ’s second coming. Premil doesn’t make logical sense to me, it takes thing too literally.