Imagery in Revelation, what should it be based on?

[DavidPT]

Assuming much of what is recorded in Revelation is imagery rather than literal events, what should the imagery be based on? Something logical, or something illogical?

Some examples.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Let's assume we all agree, though we actually don't, but for now let's pretend we do, that none of this is meaning in a literal sense, but that it's all just imagery. What then is this imagery depicting? It is depicting someone being cast into a dungeon, then chained up inside of it, then locked up. IOW, it paints a picture of someone who is is unable to do anything but remain in a hopeless situation while in the dungeon.

If one were to then say that while this person is depicted shut off from the world like that, that this person was also walking about outside of the dungeon and causing havoc to those on the outside at the same time, this imagery would now be depicting something that is illogical, rather than logical. This imagery would be depicting something that only God is capable of doing, that being, that this would mean this person chained up in the dungeon is omnipresent like God is.

Here's what the NT says about satan, as an example.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


No one would take this in a literal sense, that it is meaning satan is a literal lion. The point would be this then. What does this imagery depict? Does it depict someone that is omnipresnt like God is, thus satan can be depicted chained up and locked up in a pit and also be depicted walking about freely at the same time? How can that not be a depiction of omnipresense? Why would anyone want to interpret Scripture in such a manner that it makes satan out to be omnipresent like God is?

Another example.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Assuming this is imagery rather than something literal, what is this imagery depicting? It is depicting satan casting some into a prison while he himself has been cast into another prison where he is currently chained up and locked up inside. So once again this paints a picture that satan is omnipresent. Once again, if these things all true at the same time, the imagery is based on something illogical rather than logical.

What is the solution? As to satan and being bound in a pit, it is meaning a literal pit and that he is confined there for exactly 1000 years. This is the only way that doesn't depict satan being omnipresent instead. Maybe there are no literal chains involved, but that doesn't mean the pit can't be literal, though.

An example.

It is raining cats and dogs outside. Obviously the cats and dogs are not literal. Does that then mean, because the cats and dogs are not literal, neither is the rain nor the outside literal either? Doesn't this example at least prove that something can be both literal and non literal at the same time?

 

[timothyu]

It was simply based upon the symbolism of the day that was widely understood during those times. Who has studied that rather than re-interpreting over the centuries. Where is there a list defining those original codes? I doubt the intention was to have man continually redefine it as the centuries progressed.

 

[DavidPT]

It was simply based upon the symbolism of the day that was widely understood during those times. Who has studied that rather than re-interpreting over the centuries. Where is there a list defining those original codes? I doubt the intention was to have man continually redefine it as the centuries progressed.

Can you provide some examples of this and show how they would have understood during those times?

 

[timothyu]

Can you provide some examples of this and show how they would have understood during those times?

This is why I asked if there is a list of the symbolic meanings as they were known at the time. It was their figurative speech, not ours or even of the gentiles. It is said many of the words can be found in the old testament so perhaps the meaning can be compared. Perhaps the are defined in the Encylopaedia Judaica. We assume words like horns mean nations, or a sword in the mouth meaning truth that cuts through lies, harlots are those that exchange something to attain power (as when the gentile institutional church whored itself to Rome under Constantine) or beasts are evil powers. Is the thousand years literal or figurative? Was the entire book about dealing with the Roman Empire and any other oppressive state in the future or something more mystical than that? I doubt anyone has a clear answer except to their own thinking.

 

[DavidPT]

The following is something I already typed up and was planning on submitting in this thread, therefore this is not in reply to post #2 nor post #4. Though I did somewhat reply to post#2, I haven't gotten around to replying to post #4 as of yet.


When comparing satan's binding with that of satan being depicted as a roaring lion, that walketh about, seeking whom he may devour at the same time he is depicted shut up in a prison, the typical argument is thus. Revelation 20 only indicates that he is in the pit so that he can no longer deceive the nations while in the pit. It says zero about him also being in the pit so that he can't walk freely about, as a rouring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

If someone went around driving while drunk, thus getting into numerous accidents with ppl, and is then apprehended and cast into prison so that he can no longer drive around drunk causing accidents, until he is released from prison, one is to seriously believe that that is the only thing he is unable to do while in prison? What if he had a full time job before he got locked up, for example? Could he go to work at that job if he is locked up in prison instead?

Obviously, the point is, just because getting locked up prevents a certain thing from happening while locked up, that doesn't mean it can't also prevent other things from taking place while one is locked up, as well. So, just because the text only makes mention that satan is unable to deceive the nations while depicted shut up in a prison, that doesn't mean it can't also prevent other things from taking place while satan is locked up, unless one wants to argue that my analogy was illogical, thus this person would not be prevented from going to work while locked up in prison, he would instead only be prevented from driving drunk and causing accidents while locked up, since that is what he got locked up for, and not, that he also got locked up for going to work everyday.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Assuming much of what is recorded in Revelation is imagery rather than literal events, what should the imagery be based on? Something logical, or something illogical?

That's the wrong question to be asking in my view. Scripture is not required to be logical to the fallible human mind in order to be true. It's not logical to the human mind that someone can rise from the dead, but it happened. It's not logical that the Red Sea could be parted in two, but it was. This is your problem. You try to interpret scripture with fallible human logic and wisdom instead of using spiritual discernment as Paul said to do.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

What is the solution? As to satan and being bound in a pit, it is meaning a literal pit and that he is confined there for exactly 1000 years. This is the only way that doesn't depict satan being omnipresent instead. Maybe there are no literal chains involved, but that doesn't mean the pit can't be literal, though.

That seems awfully convenient for you to acknowledge that the chains might not be literal but at the same time insist that the pit is literal. You talk a lot about logic, but I don't see any logic in acknowledging that the chains might not be literal but at the same time the pit somehow has to be literal.

 

[grafted branch]

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


No one would take this in a literal sense, that it is meaning satan is a literal lion. The point would be this then. What does this imagery depict? Does it depict someone that is omnipresnt like God is, thus satan can be depicted chained up and locked up in a pit and also be depicted walking about freely at the same time? How can that not be a depiction of omnipresense? Why would anyone want to interpret Scripture in such a manner that it makes satan out to be omnipresent like God is?

Mark 4:15 says Satan <4567> cometh immediately and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. Satan <4567> is the exact same word used in 1 Peter 5:8 and Revelation 20.

What happens if the word is sown at the same time in 2 people, one in U.S.A. the other in Australia? Unless Satan is omnipresent he couldn’t immediately take the word away from both individuals.

I would say that sometimes the word Satan<4567> means the Adamic nature. Another example would be in Mark 8:33 where Jesus says get thee behind me Satan.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The following is something I already typed up and was planning on submitting in this thread, therefore this is not in reply to post #2 nor post #4. Though I did somewhat reply to post#2, I haven't gotten around to replying to post #4 as of yet.


When comparing satan's binding with that of satan being depicted as a roaring lion, that walketh about, seeking whom he may devour at the same time he is depicted shut up in a prison, the typical argument is thus. Revelation 20 only indicates that he is in the pit so that he can no longer deceive the nations while in the pit. It says zero about him also being in the pit so that he can't walk freely about, as a rouring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

If someone went around driving while drunk, thus getting into numerous accidents with ppl, and is then apprehended and cast into prison so that he can no longer drive around drunk causing accidents, until he is released from prison, one is to seriously believe that that is the only thing he is unable to do while in prison? What if he had a full time job before he got locked up, for example? Could he go to work at that job if he is locked up in prison instead?

Obviously, the point is, just because getting locked up prevents a certain thing from happening while locked up, that doesn't mean it can't also prevent other things from taking place while one is locked up, as well. So, just because the text only makes mention that satan is unable to deceive the nations while depicted shut up in a prison, that doesn't mean it can't also prevent other things from taking place while satan is locked up, unless one wants to argue that my analogy was illogical, thus this person would not be prevented from going to work while locked up in prison, he would instead only be prevented from driving drunk and causing accidents while locked up, since that is what he got locked up for, and not, that he also got locked up for going to work everyday.

Everything you're saying is based on the assumption that the dragon being chained and locked up in a pit is meant to be understood in a literal sense of Satan himself (a spirit being) being somehow literally locked up in a literal pit. Your default is to assume that everything in a highly symbolic book is literal unless it's spelled out to you otherwise. I don't think that's wise.

 

[timothyu]

Satan <4567> is the exact same word used in 1 Peter 5:8 and Revelation 20.

Satan according the the Encylopaedia Judaica means adversary to the will of God. We are all satans to some degree or another. Diabolos was a false accuser. The Tempter was made by God to test the allegiance of man to God's will. Man prefers to blame all of them rather than take responsibility for our own actions for we all posses the same abilities.

 

[grafted branch]

Satan according the the Encylopaedia Judaica means adversary to the will of God. We are all satans to some degree or another. Diabolos was a false accuser. The Tempter was made by God to test the allegiance of man to God's will. Man prefers to blame all of them rather than take responsibility for our own actions for we all posses the same abilities.

I agree with you, I realized after I made my post that 1 Peter 5:8 uses the word devil<1228> not Satan<4567>. I had a thread some time ago about weather Satan can cast out Satan and I came to the conclusion that very often the word Satan is the Adamic nature that is in all of us.

 

[timothyu]

Diabolos (devil) ... false accuser.

 

[DavidPT]

That's the wrong question to be asking in my view. Scripture is not required to be logical to the fallible human mind in order to be true. It's not logical to the human mind that someone can rise from the dead, but it happened. It's not logical that the Red Sea could be parted in two, but it was. This is your problem. You try to interpret scripture with fallible human logic and wisdom instead of using spiritual discernment as Paul said to do..

You're looking at some of these things the wrong way, IMO. Per your examples you apparently forgot to factor in that there is a God, therefore, everything you mentioned is absolutely 100% logical, no doubt whatsoever.

The point of the OP is this, what the imagery is depicting, the fact a lot of it is based on real world examples, the imagery has to match reality. In reality, no one can be locked up in solitary confinement, which is how satan is depicted during the thousand years, then still be walking freely about on the outside of the prison at the same time.

That seems awfully convenient for you to acknowledge that the chains might not be literal but at the same time insist that the pit is literal. You talk a lot about logic, but I don't see any logic in acknowledging that the chains might not be literal but at the same time the pit somehow has to be literal. .

Why is it convenient on my part when I also used an example where something involves something literal and non literal at the same time?

 

[DavidPT]

I agree with you, I realized after I made my post that 1 Peter 5:8 uses the word devil<1228> not Satan<4567>. I had a thread some time ago about weather Satan can cast out Satan and I came to the conclusion that very often the word Satan is the Adamic nature that is in all of us.

Why should that matter when we already have Scriptures clearly telling that the devil and satan, these are one and the same?

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years

 

[DavidPT]

What happens if the word is sown at the same time in 2 people, one in U.S.A. the other in Australia? Unless Satan is omnipresent he couldn’t immediately take the word away from both individuals.

I understand your logic here, and that it is a reasonable point you bring up. Should we then assume, since the example you did provide is at least possible that something like that can happen at the same time, therefore, it's not that satan is one being that can be in multiple places at the same time like God can, it's that he consists of multiple beings, IOW, multiple different beings equal what satan is, and not that he is just a singular being instead? Maybe like a nation? In that sense. A nation is a singular thing yet consists of multiples of peoples. Or maybe even better yet, satan and his angels, these are meaning satan the same way everyone living in the USA are meaning one nation? When you think about it though, there is not a single mention of satan's angels also being cast into the LOF in Revelation 20:10, yet, they obviously have to also get cast into there at the time.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

Assuming much of what is recorded in Revelation is imagery rather than literal events, what should the imagery be based on? Something logical, or something illogical?

Some examples.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Let's assume we all agree, though we actually don't, but for now let's pretend we do, that none of this is meaning in a literal sense, but that it's all just imagery. What then is this imagery depicting? It is depicting someone being cast into a dungeon, then chained up inside of it, then locked up. IOW, it paints a picture of someone who is is unable to do anything but remain in a hopeless situation while in the dungeon.

If one were to then say that while this person is depicted shut off from the world like that, that this person was also walking about outside of the dungeon and causing havoc to those on the outside at the same time, this imagery would now be depicting something that is illogical, rather than logical. This imagery would be depicting something that only God is capable of doing, that being, that this would mean this person chained up in the dungeon is omnipresent like God is.

Here's what the NT says about satan, as an example.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


No one would take this in a literal sense, that it is meaning satan is a literal lion. The point would be this then. What does this imagery depict? Does it depict someone that is omnipresnt like God is, thus satan can be depicted chained up and locked up in a pit and also be depicted walking about freely at the same time? How can that not be a depiction of omnipresense? Why would anyone want to interpret Scripture in such a manner that it makes satan out to be omnipresent like God is?

Another example.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Assuming this is imagery rather than something literal, what is this imagery depicting? It is depicting satan casting some into a prison while he himself has been cast into another prison where he is currently chained up and locked up inside. So once again this paints a picture that satan is omnipresent. Once again, if these things all true at the same time, the imagery is based on something illogical rather than logical.

What is the solution? As to satan and being bound in a pit, it is meaning a literal pit and that he is confined there for exactly 1000 years. This is the only way that doesn't depict satan being omnipresent instead. Maybe there are no literal chains involved, but that doesn't mean the pit can't be literal, though.

An example.

It is raining cats and dogs outside. Obviously the cats and dogs are not literal. Does that then mean, because the cats and dogs are not literal, neither is the rain nor the outside literal either? Doesn't this example at least prove that something can be both literal and non literal at the same time?

Basically all imagery in Revelation can be found in the Old Testament. Just need to dig deeper.
Be blessed.

 

[DavidPT]

Basically all imagery in Revelation can be found the the Old Testament. Just need to dig deeper.
Be blessed.

Does this mean you might know exactly where? What about the imagery involving satan being bound in the pit for a thousand years? Where do propose that can be found? I tend to think in Isaiah 24:22, for one---meaning this---And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.


And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit---meaning the thousand year binding of satan and his angels.

and after many days shall they be visited---meaning after the thousand year binding and that satan and his angels are loosed, thus meaning satan's little season. And when they are visited, meaning--and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them(Revelation 20:9)---And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone(Revelation 20:10)

 

[grafted branch]

I understand your logic here, and that it is a reasonable point you bring up. Should we then assume, since the example you did provide is at least possible that something like that can happen at the same time, therefore, it's not that satan is one being that can be in multiple places at the same time like God can, it's that he consists of multiple beings, IOW, multiple different beings equal what satan is, and not that he is just a singular being instead? Maybe like a nation? In that sense. A nation is a singular thing yet consists of multiples of peoples. Or maybe even better yet, satan and his angels, these are meaning satan the same way everyone living in the USA are meaning one nation? When you think about it though, there is not a single mention of satan's angels also being cast into the LOF in Revelation 20:10, yet, they obviously have to also get cast into there at the time.

It could be possible that Satan is referring to a group that consists of multiple people similar to the body of Christ only in this case the body of Satan. I don’t know if I would embrace that idea, the only reference I can think of that might suggest something like this is in Mark 5:8-9 where the unclean spirit is Legion: for we are many.

I agree with you on the point that Satan (as a single spiritual entity) is not omnipresent. The way the word “Satan” is used in Mark 4:15 leads me to believe that something else is in view here. To me, the Adamic nature seems to be the most likely way to define Satan in this verse.

If you know of any other verses that would support the idea of a body of Satan or have another way of looking at how Satan is used in Mark 4:15, I would like to examine it.

 

[Marilyn C]

Assuming much of what is recorded in Revelation is imagery rather than literal events, what should the imagery be based on? Something logical, or something illogical?

Some examples.

Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Let's assume we all agree, though we actually don't, but for now let's pretend we do, that none of this is meaning in a literal sense, but that it's all just imagery. What then is this imagery depicting? It is depicting someone being cast into a dungeon, then chained up inside of it, then locked up. IOW, it paints a picture of someone who is is unable to do anything but remain in a hopeless situation while in the dungeon.

If one were to then say that while this person is depicted shut off from the world like that, that this person was also walking about outside of the dungeon and causing havoc to those on the outside at the same time, this imagery would now be depicting something that is illogical, rather than logical. This imagery would be depicting something that only God is capable of doing, that being, that this would mean this person chained up in the dungeon is omnipresent like God is.

Here's what the NT says about satan, as an example.

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:


No one would take this in a literal sense, that it is meaning satan is a literal lion. The point would be this then. What does this imagery depict? Does it depict someone that is omnipresnt like God is, thus satan can be depicted chained up and locked up in a pit and also be depicted walking about freely at the same time? How can that not be a depiction of omnipresense? Why would anyone want to interpret Scripture in such a manner that it makes satan out to be omnipresent like God is?

Another example.

Revelation 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


Assuming this is imagery rather than something literal, what is this imagery depicting? It is depicting satan casting some into a prison while he himself has been cast into another prison where he is currently chained up and locked up inside. So once again this paints a picture that satan is omnipresent. Once again, if these things all true at the same time, the imagery is based on something illogical rather than logical.

What is the solution? As to satan and being bound in a pit, it is meaning a literal pit and that he is confined there for exactly 1000 years. This is the only way that doesn't depict satan being omnipresent instead. Maybe there are no literal chains involved, but that doesn't mean the pit can't be literal, though.

An example.

It is raining cats and dogs outside. Obviously the cats and dogs are not literal. Does that then mean, because the cats and dogs are not literal, neither is the rain nor the outside literal either? Doesn't this example at least prove that something can be both literal and non literal at the same time?

Hi David,

Good question. Some thoughts -

To reveal Christ to us in Revelation, there are over three hundred & thirty references to the figures, shadows, symbols, types, patterns, persons, & buildings of the Old Testament.

This unveiling is the culmination of all the truths expressed from Genesis to Revelation, for all scripture is centered on one purpose and that is to reveal Christ to us in all His Glory.

As to Satan being `bound` that is by God`s word. That is the most powerful `chain, judgment,` there ever is. Nothing can revoke what God says.

`For the word of God is living and powerful...` (Heb. 4: 12)
`He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God..` (Rev. 19: 13)

Marilyn.

 

[Douggg]

Assuming much of what is recorded in Revelation is imagery rather than literal events, what should the imagery be based on? Something logical, or something illogical?

I think it is more appropriate to say "imagery rather than literal things".

 

[timothyu]

It could be possible that Satan is referring to a group that consists of multiple people similar to the body of Christ only in this case the body of Satan.

There are 7 billion plus satans in this world, adversarial to the will of God, preferring the will and governance of man instead. Any self serving will of man human is anti-Christ in nature because Jesus taught a counter-culture focused only on the will of the Father and not even Himself. Today we have a global movement of governance called Corporatism built upon the premise of gain at the expense of others, the ultimate one world governance of man that accepted the offer all this can be yours, and supported by the people,. Talk about a conglomerate of satans doing adversarial work to the will of God.