I'm very interested in becoming a Lutheran.

[Parogar]

I feel like there's a fine print here that Christians don't like to mention.

At first I had been led to believe that I can "find salvation through Christ"--end of story. And I was okay with that. Christians really make it seem as if all it takes is a solemn belief in Christ and his acceptance as our savior, and doing that results in salvation.

But then, when you dig deeper into it, it turns out that that's not all it takes to be saved. You also have to believe in a whole bunch of other stuff, stuff that I'm not debating (because this is the wrong place), but I don't believe nonetheless.

I can handle believing in Jesus, but not if it also means I have to believe in all the OT stuff.

Also, not one time in the entire bible did I find anything that said we actually had to believe that the history written within was literal. It only says we have to believe in Christ.

 

[DaRev]

But who is Christ? Why did He come? From what do you need to be saved? All of this comes from the OT and starts with Creation. John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word...". What is that talking about?

If you remove Creation and the foundation which is the OT, you don't even have Christ.

The Holy Spirit has led you to Christ. Now take the opportunity to fully learn what your faith is and what it entails. Don't try to construct a "faith" of your own making. You'll only end up lost.

Salvation comes from Christ alone, but it's the true Christ revealed through all the words of Scripture, not just the ones you want to accept at the expense of the rest. That's not saving faith. Anyone who tells you otherwise is leading you down a dangerous path.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Not only what DaRev mentions, you have to understand the reasons WHY we need to believe. Without the OT, or creation, there's no need for a savior. None. You can't just take parts of the bible and say "I like this part but I don't like this part so I'm not gonna buy into that". It's kind of an all-or-nothing thing. You either believe the word of God or you don't.

 

[LilLamb219]

Not only what DaRev mentions, you have to understand the reasons WHY we need to believe. Without the OT, or creation, there's no need for a savior. None. You can't just take parts of the bible and say "I like this part but I don't like this part so I'm not gonna buy into that". It's kind of an all-or-nothing thing. You either believe the word of God or you don't.

You know, in a way, I totally agree with what you've written.

But I also grew up in a church where we were told that maybe a lot of what happened in the OT did and maybe it really didn't but were just stories to help teach us. And I still believed in the Savior who died for my sins.

Even having a skewed belief in the OT as I once did, I was still a strong Christian depending on Jesus for my salvation. It was up to God to increase my faith...and that He did when He brought me to my current church. The OT fell more into place as my learning went on.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

You know, in a way, I totally agree with what you've written.

But I also grew up in a church where we were told that maybe a lot of what happened in the OT did and maybe it really didn't but were just stories to help teach us. And I still believed in the Savior who died for my sins.

Even having a skewed belief in the OT as I once did, I was still a strong Christian depending on Jesus for my salvation. It was up to God to increase my faith...and that He did when He brought me to my current church. The OT fell more into place as my learning went on.

Totally see what you mean here, Lambie!

 

[HarrietS]

I was raised Lutheran. Once teenagers got confirmed they
quit coming to church. I was a lutheran until I was 25.
Then I checked out other denominations.

I'm learning it isn't about the religion; it's about a relationship
with Jesus.

Most important go to a church that preaches Jesus
as Lord, goes by the bible and talks about the Holy Spirit.

Harriet

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I was raised Lutheran. Once teenagers got confirmed they
quit coming to church. I was a lutheran until I was 25.
Then I checked out other denominations.

I'm learning it isn't about the religion; it's about a relationship
with Jesus.

Lutherans are caught up in baby baptism and confirmation.
Baptism doesn't save us. Even though there is a verse
that says so. Adult baptism is an act of obedience of our faith.

Stay away from ELCA. They are going along with women
pastors and homosexuality.

LCMS is getting away from the Lord too. There may be
a few good ones out there yet.

If you really want to grow in your faith go to a baptist
or non denomination church.

Most important go to a church that preaches Jesus
as Lord, goes by the bible and talks about the Holy Spirit.

Harriet

This post stands in violation of the Congregational rules. Please edit it.

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[LilLamb219]

Thankfully Lutherans ARE Christ-centered.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

Thankfully Lutherans ARE Christ-centered.

 

[Moses Medina]

I was raised Lutheran. Once teenagers got confirmed they
quit coming to church. I was a lutheran until I was 25.
Then I checked out other denominations.

I'm learning it isn't about the religion; it's about a relationship
with Jesus.

Most important go to a church that preaches Jesus
as Lord, goes by the bible and talks about the Holy Spirit.

Harriet

You are right. Its a relationship, and that is exactly what lutherans teach. The relationship of God and man, what he has done for us. And his gifts he gives to us. Word and sacrament. Also you will find the gospel purely preached, not that once we are saved we are to be better christians, but rather that christ died and ressurected for us. We are forgiven, so rejoice.

If that's what you meant then you are right and its awesome. God is merciful indeed!

 

[Chainless]

Coming from more contemporary churches I am finding Lutheran churches to be a breath of fresh air. The churches I went to didn't give God the reverence He deserves. It was more about "Come have coffee and donuts in our cafe then sing and dance. You'll feel great!"

Lutheran church has been a huge culture shock. But in a good way. Contemporary churches don't even have bible studies. I went to a bible study at a Lutheran church I visited and was so excited when I saw how scripture was being discussed.

 

[LilLamb219]

Coming from more contemporary churches I am finding Lutheran churches to be a breath of fresh air. The churches I went to didn't give God the reverence He deserves. It was more about "Come have coffee and donuts in our cafe then sing and dance. You'll feel great!"

Lutheran church has been a huge culture shock. But in a good way. Contemporary churches don't even have bible studies. I went to a bible study at a Lutheran church I visited and was so excited when I saw how scripture was being discussed.

Good points...invite your friends so they can be a part too

 

[Parogar]

I understand what all you guys are saying, but here's the question I'm asking that's only partially being answered.

Many of you are saying (and this is coming through loud and clear) that I should believe in the OT. But my question is--what if I don't?

For example: Suppose I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, his sacrifices towards us, and believe in him 100% fully. When I die, will God say, "Okay, you DID accept Jesus as your savior, but you didn't believe that six creation days meant six literal, twenty-four-hour creation days, and you thought that the section about Adam and Eve was allegorical and not meant to be interpreted as a literal history. So you're going to hell for that even though you gave yourself to Jesus."

That's what I'm asking. Is it 100% necessary to the point that salvation is lost without believing it? Or is it just something that you should do, such as, I don't know, umm ... holding the door for people or saying please and thank you.

By that I mean is it something that would be the right choice to make, or is it something that, if not done (believing in the OT), results in eternal damnation regardless of belief in Jesus.

The bible never once says that the stories in the OT are not allegorical. I could understand if the OT was important to learn lessons from: disobeying God, temptation, sin, etc.

But I don't see why it has to be believed on a level that says, "Okay, the earth is only six-thousand-years old and if you don't agree with that you burn in hell forever."

It's almost sad that something like this is holding me up from becoming a Christian, but until I clear up my issues with the OT, I don't see how I can move forward.

 

[DaRev]

I understand what all you guys are saying, but here's the question I'm asking that's only partially being answered.

Many of you are saying (and this is coming through loud and clear) that I should believe in the OT. But my question is--what if I don't?

For example: Suppose I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, his sacrifices towards us, and believe in him 100% fully. When I die, will God say, "Okay, you DID accept Jesus as your savior, but you didn't believe that six creation days meant six literal, twenty-four-hour creation days, and you thought that the section about Adam and Eve was allegorical and not meant to be interpreted as a literal history. So you're going to hell for that even though you gave yourself to Jesus."

That's what I'm asking. Is it 100% necessary to the point that salvation is lost without believing it? Or is it just something that you should do, such as, I don't know, umm ... holding the door for people or saying please and thank you.

By that I mean is it something that would be the right choice to make, or is it something that, if not done (believing in the OT), results in eternal damnation regardless of belief in Jesus.

The bible never once says that the stories in the OT are not allegorical. I could understand if the OT was important to learn lessons from: disobeying God, temptation, sin, etc.

But I don't see why it has to be believed on a level that says, "Okay, the earth is only six-thousand-years old and if you don't agree with that you burn in hell forever."

It's almost sad that something like this is holding me up from becoming a Christian, but until I clear up my issues with the OT, I don't see how I can move forward.

Where in the Old Testament does it say that the universe is 6000 years old? It doesn't. But it also does not support a billions of years old universe either.

In order to believe in Jesus you have to know who He is. You have to know why He came. You seem to want to create a Jesus of your own. That's idolatry. You need to be careful of that. Simply believing and "accepting" a Jesus is not going to save anybody. If you believe in the true God and the true Christ, that means you believe His word. If you reject His word, are you then rejecting Christ? The only sin that condemns one to hell is unbelief.

You said, "the bible never once says that the stories in the OT are not allegorical." Actually, it does tell us what parts are allegorical and what parts are factual and historical. It's called context. When read in the proper context it's actually very clear.

Recognizing your need for the Savior is a wonderful thing. You have done that. And you also recognize who that Savior is. The Holy Spirit is working in you. Now that you have heard the Gospel and can call upon His name, this is when you need to be involved in a serious Bible study in order to understand what God is telling us in His word, and why He tells us what He does. That sounds like where you are now. You just need to learn the 'why'.

 

[Luther073082]

I understand what all you guys are saying, but here's the question I'm asking that's only partially being answered.

Many of you are saying (and this is coming through loud and clear) that I should believe in the OT. But my question is--what if I don't?

For example: Suppose I accept Jesus Christ as my lord and savior, his sacrifices towards us, and believe in him 100% fully. When I die, will God say, "Okay, you DID accept Jesus as your savior, but you didn't believe that six creation days meant six literal, twenty-four-hour creation days, and you thought that the section about Adam and Eve was allegorical and not meant to be interpreted as a literal history. So you're going to hell for that even though you gave yourself to Jesus."

That's what I'm asking. Is it 100% necessary to the point that salvation is lost without believing it? Or is it just something that you should do, such as, I don't know, umm ... holding the door for people or saying please and thank you.

By that I mean is it something that would be the right choice to make, or is it something that, if not done (believing in the OT), results in eternal damnation regardless of belief in Jesus.

The bible never once says that the stories in the OT are not allegorical. I could understand if the OT was important to learn lessons from: disobeying God, temptation, sin, etc.

But I don't see why it has to be believed on a level that says, "Okay, the earth is only six-thousand-years old and if you don't agree with that you burn in hell forever."

It's almost sad that something like this is holding me up from becoming a Christian, but until I clear up my issues with the OT, I don't see how I can move forward.

No belief in those things are not absolutely necessary for salvation.

However I think the problem is without understanding the framework that the OT provides for Christ, it's very difficult to grow as a Christian.

A true faith will eventually push a person to do more then what is necessary for salvation which includes Christian learning and growth as well as obedience to God's will and service to others.

 

[Parogar]

No belief in those things are not absolutely necessary for salvation.

However I think the problem is without understanding the framework that the OT provides for Christ, it's very difficult to grow as a Christian.

A true faith will eventually push a person to do more then what is necessary for salvation which includes Christian learning and growth as well as obedience to God's will and service to others.

True faith can be a dangerous thing, and I know I'm not crazy when I say there is justification in fearing such.

While it's true that having absolute faith and conviction can lead to a better, more peaceful world of love and understanding, it's also true that the same thing can lead to (and I apologize if this is offensive as it's not meant to be) Islamic extremism, which brings death and destruction down on people.

So I hope people here can understand my desire to be cautious.

 

[DaRev]

True faith can be a dangerous thing, and I know I'm not crazy when I say there is justification in fearing such.

While it's true that having absolute faith and conviction can lead to a better, more peaceful world of love and understanding, it's also true that the same thing can lead to (and I apologize if this is offensive as it's not meant to be) Islamic extremism, which brings death and destruction down on people.

So I hope people here can understand my desire to be cautious.

It depends on the object of your faith. If it's in the one true God, it will bring peace, joy, and life. If it's a man made faith object, then it will lead to death and destruction.

It sounds like you are afraid of commitment. We will continue to pray for you.

 

[cerette]

Parogar, how are you doing these days?

 

[Parogar]

Parogar, how are you doing these days?

Hey again. Sorry, I know it's been a while since I've posted here.

Truthfully? Not very happy. I've seen some things the last few days which has made me wonder if the world is heading to a moral level of decay that no amount of effort can begin to heal.

Okay, I don't know how to state this nicely, so I'm going to just out and say it bluntly.

On the website where I write, there is a new trend going on. It is so horrible that I lost my cool and almost got myself banned attacking one of the authors of this trend.

Basically, 14-year-old girls are now writing rape stories, where they imagine themselves being raped by famous people. These stories are hugely popular, and THOUSANDS of other 11-16 year-old girls are reading them and saying how awesome they are.

This is a level of sickness and disgust that it so powerful that it shatters even the slightest shadow of a doubt I have that there must be some evil force like Satan in this world. These children are actively fantasizing about being raped.

Now, what I did (and I don't know if this is moral or not) is I chose to publicly ridicule one of these stories in front of my thousands of followers by insulting it in a youtube video. This nearly got me kicked off the website as it counts as "bullying."

But was what I did really so immoral?

I just don't understand how, if Jesus is who you all say he is, is allowing these thoughts to even enter the brains of CHILDREN. Little girls, who are actually lusting to be raped!

Not just one, two, or three, either, but THOUSANDS of them.

Read this at your own peril this is just one of thousans:one direction slave Chapter2 - Wattpad

And there are people in here who are commenting on this who are Christian and they are supporting this book and finding it "hot."

There is no longer a battle with Satan as far as I'm concerned; he has won.

 

[Parogar]

Does the bible say anything about this sort of thing? I mean, in the prophecies.