I'm very interested in becoming a Lutheran.

[FireDragon76]

It's surprising I've heard conservative Lutherans will confessionalize a 24 hour day in creation- many of the early Christians would find that idea strange, as would many Jews throughout history. It's bringing a precision to the biblical text that is quite foreign to the Ancient Near East worldview.

 

[DaRev]

I agree he could, but why would he make an earth in which the scientific evidence in it appeared as though it was billions of years old and with the rest of the universe being trillions of years old.

Only human reason comes to that conclusion. It's kinda like Nicodemus' conversation with Jesus in John 3. Nicodemus could not comprehend Jesus' statement of being born "again / from above". His question about how a man can re-enter the womb to be born a second time confirms his inability to think outside of his human reason.

There are stars and galaxies we can see now that we should not be able to see if the universe is 10,000 years old or less because they are more then 10,000 light years away.

Anyways I don't want to argue the merits of it because I agree scripture does indicate that the earth and everything was created in 6 days. The problem I have and will probably always have is that the outside evidence just does not support that.

Again, if one views the "outside evidence" through the word of God, it makes perfect sense.

For example, the notion that the universe cannot be "young" because it would take ten's of thousands of years or more for the light to reach the earth. But what does God's word say? After the creation of the "heavens and the earth" what was the first thing God created? Light. The light was here first. Later the stars came into being. What was the reason for creating the stars? To give light to the earth. First light, then sun and stars to continue to provide that light. Many tend to forget that God also created the light.

When the evidence is viewed through the word of God, it makes perfect sense.

It's surprising I've heard conservative Lutherans will confessionalize a 24 hour day in creation- many of the early Christians would find that idea strange, as would many Jews throughout history. It's bringing a precision to the biblical text that is quite foreign to the Ancient Near East worldview.

Whether or not ancient human worldviews understood it that way is moot. Human logic is flawed because of the Fall. The notion of 6 consecutive 24 hour days in Creation comes directly from the context of Scripture. There is nothing in the context that suggests it means anything other than what it says.

 

[FireDragon76]

God created light and darkness- day and night, ie, time. Ancients wouldn't think of time in terms of quartz crystals, atomic clocks, or digital wristwatches, but the moving of the sun and moon in the sky. I find that the most compelling interpretation.

Whether or not ancient human worldviews understood it that way is moot. Human logic is flawed because of the Fall.

and yet, human logic and natural science have allowed us to communicate on this forum, something that I'm pretty sure the authors of Genesis 1 would consider magic.

I would urge you not to put stumbling blocks in front of non-Christians. Our justification is rooted in Christ's saving work, not in our understanding of biblical texts.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

God created light and darkness- day and night, ie, time. Ancients wouldn't think of time in terms of quartz crystals, atomic clocks, or digital wristwatches, but the moving of the sun and moon in the sky. I find that the most compelling interpretation.



and yet, human logic and natural science have allowed us to communicate on this forum, something that I'm pretty sure the authors of Genesis 1 would consider magic.

I would urge you not to put stumbling blocks in front of non-Christians. Our justification is rooted in Christ's saving work, not in our understanding of biblical texts.

I'm not sure where he's putting up a stumbling block here. Can you explain that?

 

[Tangible]

Heb 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

1 Cor 2:14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Parogar]

Why does Jesus care if I believe in creation? Why isn't it enough if I just love and worship Jesus and still not believe the OT?

Is it really blasphemy? Does it actually say in the bible that believing the OT is a requirement to believing in Jesus?

Wouldn't it be enough if I just stuck to the new testament and loved Jesus, his teachings, and his laws, and ignored the OT?

I'm struggling here, because on the one hand I've got Jesus, and I'm ready to put my soul in his hands. But on the other end of things, I've got this story about Adam and Eve, and it just makes me suffer with doubt.

 

[Parogar]

I thought Lutheranism was about, "Through Jesus and through Jesus alone"

And I feel like I can do that. And it always seems so possible at first. But then I'm reminded that it's not really just through Jesus and Jesus alone. I have to force myself to believe stuff, but the problem is that, like you guys said, belief isn't a choice.

No one can "make" themselves believe anything. If that were possible, then we'd all choose to believe we're perfectly happy and rich, and that nothing bad has ever happened to us.

Except we can't. We can't actively and consciously choose what we believe in. And I've sat there and mulled over the Adam and Eve and creation story for a great deal of time, and I just don't ... I don't believe it. Not because I choose not to, but because my mind just doesn't. I want to believe it--I really do. But I can't make myself.

I prayed to Jesus (still new at that) and asked him to help me believe, but all that did was make me feel an even greater sense of doubt, because I remembered that the NT was written a great deal AFTER the OT, and it has been susceptible to a great deal more mistakes, errors, etc.

I believe that God exists, when I used to not believe. And I'm starting to genuinely believe that Jesus Christ is our lord and savior.

But I don't think I can be a lutheran as I had originally planned, because I simply can't believe in creationism. Again, not by choice--but because my mind says "no".

 

[Parogar]

Christians talk a lot about "faith" and "belief."

But to me, (and this is just me) I'm starting to feel that things like evolution, creation, Noah, etc... these are ALL "beliefs" and "belief" is not the same as "faith."

To ME, faith is the feeling I've been getting as of late when I put all my hopes, dreams, desires, and love in Christ. And I honestly feel that Jesus doesn't care whether or not I believe God used this method or that method to create the earth. I don't think faith in Christ has anything to do with what technical forces God used to create vegetables. I think it's about knowing we have a savior.

And that's why I feel I need to ignore the OT. Because the OT and creationism threatens to take me away from Jesus. Maybe I can come back to it some day in the future.

But right now, I can't do both: I can either have faith in Jesus and ignore the OT, or I can not have faith in Jesus.

I can't have both Jesus and the OT. I simply can't.

 

[FireDragon76]

To ME, faith is the feeling I've been getting as of late when I put all my hopes, dreams, desires, and love in Christ. And I honestly feel that Jesus doesn't care whether or not I believe God used this method or that method to create the earth.

Yes, that is what faith is about, at least "saving faith", I see no problem with your understanding there. It is not just about agreeing to facts about God or the Bible. This kind of faith is transformative (in the in Greek, John the Baptist and Jesus talk about metanoia - repentance is an iffy translation, but having a new mind or change of heart about things is closer to what he's saying), and that is what salvation is really about.

To be clear, I believe God is the Creator, but how this reconciles with the theory of evolution I believe is a matter that is relatively indifferent to my salvation and your salvation. Many early Christians had various interpretations of the early chapters in Genesis, as did some Jews, such as Philo of Alexandria. Christians disagree about these things precisely because they aren't that essential. Part of the joy of a life of faith is not having all the answers and having the freedom to not have to figure it all out.

The important bit is that God created the world for good, but its been damaged by evil. That is why Jesus has to enter the picture, to set things right. Of course Jesus himself has to pay a price for being here - a good guy in a bad world, and that's what the Cross is all about and why Christians believe its part of our salvation. In a mysterious way Christ's sacrifice on the cross and his resurrection has redemeed the world and we are in fact living in that reality right now, but it is not yet fully completed.

And that's why I feel I need to ignore the OT. Because the OT and creationism threatens to take me away from Jesus. Maybe I can come back to it some day in the future.

The Old Testament provides the context for the Gospels in the New Testament. They can be difficult to read and understand. I think the Old Testament is valuable but it can be very challenging to read and understand- it's a very different culture with different assumptions about everything.

You are very correct, we cannot force ourselves to believe. I do think, however, we can do things that dispose ourselves to belief, but it cannot be forced. Faith is ultimately a gift. A long time ago I had the same issues, but they gradually went away after I had experience actually relating to God, everything fell into place.

 

[Luther073082]

Why does Jesus care if I believe in creation? Why isn't it enough if I just love and worship Jesus and still not believe the OT?

Is it really blasphemy? Does it actually say in the bible that believing the OT is a requirement to believing in Jesus?

Wouldn't it be enough if I just stuck to the new testament and loved Jesus, his teachings, and his laws, and ignored the OT?

I'm struggling here, because on the one hand I've got Jesus, and I'm ready to put my soul in his hands. But on the other end of things, I've got this story about Adam and Eve, and it just makes me suffer with doubt.

You are not required to believe in creationism to believe in Jesus. A lot of people who believe in Jesus don't believe in creationism.

I typically avoid the question myself because while I want to believe in scripture at the same time I have a very hard time believing in a 6 day creation.

I would caution you against ignoring the OT entirely though.

 

[DaRev]

God created light and darkness- day and night, ie, time. Ancients wouldn't think of time in terms of quartz crystals, atomic clocks, or digital wristwatches, but the moving of the sun and moon in the sky. I find that the most compelling interpretation.

But that's only a portion of it. Don't limit God or His word that way.

and yet, human logic and natural science have allowed us to communicate on this forum, something that I'm pretty sure the authors of Genesis 1 would consider magic.

Moot to the current subject.

I would urge you not to put stumbling blocks in front of non-Christians. Our justification is rooted in Christ's saving work, not in our understanding of biblical texts.

And yet our understanding of Christ's saving work comes from the texts that God gave us as His revelation. Proper understanding of the texts can and does effect our faith. It is of utmost importance.

 

[DaRev]

Why does Jesus care if I believe in creation? Why isn't it enough if I just love and worship Jesus and still not believe the OT?

Why do you love and worship Jesus? For what reason did Jesus come to save you? Where do we find the prophetic promises of the Messiah who would come to save us? What did Jesus come to save us from? To what depths has the human race sunk that made it necessary for God to come Himself and save it?

All found in the OT.

Is it really blasphemy? Does it actually say in the bible that believing the OT is a requirement to believing in Jesus?

Wouldn't it be enough if I just stuck to the new testament and loved Jesus, his teachings, and his laws, and ignored the OT?

It starts a slippery slope. When you begin to pick and choose what you want to believe, are you really submitting yourself totally to Christ, or are you only willing to submit based on the terms of your own making? And if it's the latter, do you really love Christ or a "god" of your own creation? See where that can go?

I'm struggling here, because on the one hand I've got Jesus, and I'm ready to put my soul in his hands. But on the other end of things, I've got this story about Adam and Eve, and it just makes me suffer with doubt.

You need to spend some more time in prayer and the word of God. Without Adam and Eve there is no Jesus.

You are not required to believe in creationism to believe in Jesus. A lot of people who believe in Jesus don't believe in creationism.

I typically avoid the question myself because while I want to believe in scripture at the same time I have a very hard time believing in a 6 day creation.

I would caution you against ignoring the OT entirely though.

This leads to that slippery slope I mentioned earlier. If one rejects the Creation account as revealed in God's word, what else are they willing to disregard? Look at the liberal Christian traditions and see what they believe and what they reject.

 

[Parogar]

I'm really sorry, DaRev, but I just can't do it. I tried--really, I did.

If you're saying that it's a slippery slope, and that I can't have Jesus in my life without believing in Adam and Eve, then I guess I'll just have to go back to not having Jesus in my life.

I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time on here, but I really did try. I just simply don't believe in Adam and Eve, or the Noah's ark and stuff.

Christ was what attracted me to Christianity, and I really felt a connection to Him and His sacrifice. But if I can't worship him without also believing in the other stuff, then so be it. I'm sorry for wasting the time of everyone on here so much.

Why do you love and worship Jesus? For what reason did Jesus come to save you? Where do we find the prophetic promises of the Messiah who would come to save us? What did Jesus come to save us from? To what depths has the human race sunk that made it necessary for God to come Himself and save it?

All found in the OT.



It starts a slippery slope. When you begin to pick and choose what you want to believe, are you really submitting yourself totally to Christ, or are you only willing to submit based on the terms of your own making? And if it's the latter, do you really love Christ or a "god" of your own creation? See where that can go?



You need to spend some more time in prayer and the word of God. Without Adam and Eve there is no Jesus.



This leads to that slippery slope I mentioned earlier. If one rejects the Creation account as revealed in God's word, what else are they willing to disregard? Look at the liberal Christian traditions and see what they believe and what they reject.

 

[Mediaeval]

Maybe go through the NT and see what Christ's own attitude was toward the OT.

 

[LilLamb219]

You'll give up so quickly?

Sometimes it takes awhile to believe things from scripture. Some denominations even teach the kids that those are only "stories" from the Bible...yet they still end up believing in Christ and the forgiveness of sins.

Of course, believing what the Old Testament says helps to strengthen those beliefs. The Old Testament does show why we need a Savior and how God set aside His people for the line of the Savior.

I'm really sorry, DaRev, but I just can't do it. I tried--really, I did.

If you're saying that it's a slippery slope, and that I can't have Jesus in my life without believing in Adam and Eve, then I guess I'll just have to go back to not having Jesus in my life.

I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time on here, but I really did try. I just simply don't believe in Adam and Eve, or the Noah's ark and stuff.

Christ was what attracted me to Christianity, and I really felt a connection to Him and His sacrifice. But if I can't worship him without also believing in the other stuff, then so be it. I'm sorry for wasting the time of everyone on here so much.

 

[DaRev]

I'm really sorry, DaRev, but I just can't do it. I tried--really, I did.

If you're saying that it's a slippery slope, and that I can't have Jesus in my life without believing in Adam and Eve, then I guess I'll just have to go back to not having Jesus in my life.

I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time on here, but I really did try. I just simply don't believe in Adam and Eve, or the Noah's ark and stuff.

Christ was what attracted me to Christianity, and I really felt a connection to Him and His sacrifice. But if I can't worship him without also believing in the other stuff, then so be it. I'm sorry for wasting the time of everyone on here so much.

Don't give up on Jesus. He didn't give up on you. And don't be so quick to give up on the word of God. Just start with what you can understand and then, through study, work your way through it. You're not going to gain a full understanding in such a short period of time. It will be a lifelong process.

You may not quite understand all of it, but just don't dismiss it and walk away from it. Let the Holy Spirit guide you to the truth. patience is a virtue.

 

[Drew1986]

One thing that usually helps for me is recognizing that Jesus is all over the OT. One of the most obvious is Isaiah 53:

Who has believed what he has heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 For he grew up before him like a young plant,
and like a root out of dry ground;
he had no form or majesty that we should look at him,
and no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men;
a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief;
and as one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he has borne our griefs
and carried our sorrows;
yet we esteemed him stricken,
smitten by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions;
he was crushed for our iniquities;
upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace,
and with his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth;
like a lamb that is led to the slaughter,
and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he opened not his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away;
and as for his generation, who considered
that he was cut off out of the land of the living,
stricken for the transgression of my people?
9 And they made his grave with the wicked
and with a rich man in his death,
although he had done no violence,
and there was no deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the will of the Lord to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many,
and he shall divide the spoil with the strong,
because he poured out his soul to death
and was numbered with the transgressors;
yet he bore the sin of many,
and makes intercession for the transgressors.

 

[Chainless]

Parogar, you sound like me at the beginning of my Christian life. I was born-again in my twenties. I grew up in an agnostic/atheist household. "Raised" by bikers. I never heard much about God. When I was born-again I knew next to nothing about anything in the bible. Yet, someone shared the gospel and I was transformed. I started digging into scripture. I stumbled over Genesis, Adam and Eve, and more. Everything I was ever told and taught was contrary. I came to a point where I said to myself "If I never receive answers to all my questions, that's ok". It took awhile, though. It came down to Christ being more than enough. God is so big. If I go to my grave with a million questions then so be it. Even 13 years after being born-again I am receiving answers to questions I had in the beginning. Which makes me wonder what answers I will receive 13 years from now. I have questions too, brother. Even so, Christ is Lord. I have to keep in mind that my mind in comparison to God is laughable.

Bottom-line: I know Christ is Lord. Therefore, all scripture is true and perfect whether or not I grasp a particular piece. I'm not saying that trying to understand God's word is pointless. On the contrary, it is one of the greatest things we can do.

 

[PreachersWife2004]

I'm really sorry, DaRev, but I just can't do it. I tried--really, I did.

If you're saying that it's a slippery slope, and that I can't have Jesus in my life without believing in Adam and Eve, then I guess I'll just have to go back to not having Jesus in my life.

I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time on here, but I really did try. I just simply don't believe in Adam and Eve, or the Noah's ark and stuff.

Christ was what attracted me to Christianity, and I really felt a connection to Him and His sacrifice. But if I can't worship him without also believing in the other stuff, then so be it. I'm sorry for wasting the time of everyone on here so much.

Then you give up too easily. You can't just take the easy parts and call it good, my friend.

We'll continue to pray for you.

 

[Parogar]

I just don't understand why it matters whether or not I believe in creation, Noah, etc.

Why would God even care? I thought the whole point of Christianity/Lutheranism was through Christ and through Christ alone. Why does it matter to God what I believe about what essentially is a story of "history" and has nothing to do with the most important bits about Jesus Christ, and the way he died for our sins.

The Old Testament says things that don't make sense. For example: it says that things didn't die until after the sin with the garden of Eden.

But here's the thing: everything about our bodies, from our digestive system to the we break down food--all of it has to do with life and death. Every last bit of the human body is a nonstop process of cells dying and being born, along with bacteria, and energy being created then released, etc.

But none of that really matters--doesn't it? Isn't the most important thing here that Jesus died so that we could be saved? Isn't the whole point of "through Christ and through Christ alone" that it doesn't matter whether or not I believe the earth is billions of years old and that God created life through the use of self-replicating RNA?

Isn't the point that Jesus died for our sins, and in that sacrifice we can be saved?