How could he have been "tempted in all ways as we are and yet without sin" if in fact he had no choice? (1 Corinthians 10:13)
Can you narrow down to actually one question? You have about fourteen of them.Okay so my question is this, you know how many times in our lives we meet the right people that God wants us to meet? We're in the places where God wants us to be and not only many times do we make really good friends but we also succeed in bringing people to Christ? How does an Arminian view this? Is this God's sovereignty working in our lives or is this just pure chance? If its pure chance how does the same exact sheep that God wants to save from before the foundation of the world up being saved?
Where does God's sovereignty fit in the Arminian world? Surely you dont reject God's sovreignty and power which is plastered all over the Bible? God has to be in control of some things (let alone everything) or he isn't God. God has to be in control of DNA, molecules, or debris or how would our world function? How do you think you met your spouse? Or got into the perfect job that you got into? Graduated from college at just the right time cementing whatever career you wanted for yourself? How does God know your name and know what college you went to and everything about you if hes not sovereign?
Yes, God can see the future so naturally he'd know these things but dlnt you believe in Election just a little bit? You cannot deny that election is taught in the Bible. God's election doesnt just stop at David, Moses, Joeseph, Daniel ...etc right? If you do reject that than why WERE they chosen by God if every human has freewill? If Moses had the freewill decisions couldnt he have chosen to not listen to God and not free Israel from slavery? Couldnt Adam and Eve have not disobeyed God? Or Noah not built the arc? Why did all of the important men of history obey God exactly the way God wanted them to?
I'm not trying to turn this into a Calvinism vs Arminian debate again. I'm just curious as to how the mind of an Arminian works in this sense. I'm actually kind of befuddled that someone could not believe in God's sovereignty when its plastered throughout the Bible? Not only that but God's sovereignty can be seen in our everyday lives if we just examine the moments. There are moments in our lives that ONLY God could have setup.
Because if they hadn't we would be reading about completely different people.Yes, God can see the future so naturally he'd know these things but dlnt you believe in Election just a little bit? You cannot deny that election is taught in the Bible. God's election doesnt just stop at David, Moses, Joeseph, Daniel ...etc right? If you do reject that than why WERE they chosen by God if every human has freewill? If Moses had the freewill decisions couldnt he have chosen to not listen to God and not free Israel from slavery? Couldnt Adam and Eve have not disobeyed God? Or Noah not built the arc? Why did all of the important men of history obey God exactly the way God wanted them to?
David committed adultery. Was that God' sovereign will?
Interesting take on the situation.It was against God's command.
It was part of God's plan. Jesus was meant to be born from Bathsheba.
Okay so my question is this, you know how many times in our lives we meet the right people that God wants us to meet? We're in the places where God wants us to be and not only many times do we make really good friends but we also succeed in bringing people to Christ? How does an Arminian view this? Is this God's sovereignty working in our lives or is this just pure chance? If its pure chance how does the same exact sheep that God wants to save from before the foundation of the world up being saved?
Where does God's sovereignty fit in the Arminian world? Surely you dont reject God's sovreignty and power which is plastered all over the Bible? God has to be in control of some things (let alone everything) or he isn't God. God has to be in control of DNA, molecules, or debris or how would our world function? How do you think you met your spouse? Or got into the perfect job that you got into? Graduated from college at just the right time cementing whatever career you wanted for yourself? How does God know your name and know what college you went to and everything about you if hes not sovereign?
Yes, God can see the future so naturally he'd know these things but dlnt you believe in Election just a little bit? You cannot deny that election is taught in the Bible. God's election doesnt just stop at David, Moses, Joeseph, Daniel ...etc right? If you do reject that than why WERE they chosen by God if every human has freewill? If Moses had the freewill decisions couldnt he have chosen to not listen to God and not free Israel from slavery? Couldnt Adam and Eve have not disobeyed God? Or Noah not built the arc? Why did all of the important men of history obey God exactly the way God wanted them to?
I'm not trying to turn this into a Calvinism vs Arminian debate again. I'm just curious as to how the mind of an Arminian works in this sense. I'm actually kind of befuddled that someone could not believe in God's sovereignty when its plastered throughout the Bible? Not only that but God's sovereignty can be seen in our everyday lives if we just examine the moments. There are moments in our lives that ONLY God could have setup.
It was against God's command.
It was part of God's plan. Jesus was meant to be born from Bathsheba.
Nevertheless, under the predestination model, David's adultery was not David's choice.
Under predestination (like Calvinism) we bring NOBODY to Christ. NOTHING we do matters. No choices matter. No acts matter. It's all just a pre-scripted puppet play, where God does everything. We are just helpless spectators who have no responsibility for our acts, because they are not our acts. They are merely a program, we are merely robots, no will, no choices, no responsibility. If there is no choice, there is no responsibility, it is that simple. Responsibility requires the ability to make a choice.
Nevertheless, under the predestination model, David's adultery was not David's choice.
The flip side of the problem is that if Jesus did have complete freedom to choose and had chosen to sin would He have actually been the sinless Son of God?
Jesus was unique in that His nature was not tainted by the sin that all humans inherit from Adam. That's what makes the virgin birth so special. And of course, He is also divine so His nature is only wanting non-sinful things, perfectly with obeying with the Fathers will and wanting to do so. That makes Him the only person to never sin or even want to, but He was still tested like us all, and even more so- by Satan himself. So he succeeded where Adam failed.
Adam and Eve had the most 'free will" any of us could of ever had, and they chose to disobey God when tested, and this was before they had a sin nature. Why? Because their nature was not spiritual to start with but earthy, and they were not divine. Not that wanting and needing things of the earth is bad, it's just we tend to make idols out of them.We all would of did the same thing in their place, and now we are all under the curse of sin, children of darkness, and cannot choose God and must be enabled by the Holy Spirit to come to Him in faith.
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So also it is written, “The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual. 47The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven. 48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly. 49Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.
9What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10as it is written,
“THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
13“THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,”
“THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”;
14“WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”;
15“THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.”
18“THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES.”
And,
1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
But the kicker is angels are spiritual beings and even they were either chosen by God to be either the elect angels, or not, which failed the test too- following Satan not God.
21I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of His chosen {elect} angels, to maintain these principles without bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.
So in my mind the words of Jesus in John 6 cannot be refuted that God has to grant any created being to come to Him in faith. We are all hopelessly lost, blind, and under Satan's control in our natural state, not seeking after God. Jesus did not have to want to come to God, to seek God, because He is God.
It's a hard doctrine to understand and accept because we as mankind want to be in control of our destiny. It's humbling to know that if we are trusting in Christ to save our souls it wasn't our plan.
I use to hold to Arminian teachings until I read John 6, and Romans 3, Eph. 2, and of course Romans 9. I thought it was my plan that I came to Christ, but I saw the error of my thinking.
It's not about us being robots, it's about being grateful that God has chosen us and trusting He will draw and save all His chosen ones, and being part of His plan to do so. This should not be a stumbling block. Let God be God and man be man, and keep both in their proper place. It's all about trusting in Gods plan and not thinking we are better than God or know more than God.
60Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this said, “This is a difficult statement; who can listen to it?” 61But Jesus, conscious that His disciples grumbled at this, said to them, “Does this cause you to stumble? 62“What then if you see the Son of Man ascending to where He was before? 63“It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life. 64“But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. 65And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”
66As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
Because if they hadn't we would be reading about completely different people.
Take a look at those people you mention. David committed adultery. Was that God' sovereign will?
Moses got angry. Was that God's Sovereign will?
1. Yes it was his sovereign will because maybe for David to repent and for the rest of God's plans and promises for him to come true (the resurrection of David, David reigning with Christ forever ...etc) he had to sleep with Bethsheba and kill his best friend. I'm not God I cannot say exactly what goes through his mind and his mind far surpasses our wildest dreams. But this is a possibility that David had to sin for David to come to God and for David's wonderful future to come true not to mention the birth of King Solomon. If David didnt cheat Solomon never would have been born. The Bible does says that God sometimes means evil for good (Genesis 50:20, also a psalm somewhere forget where I apologize).
An example would be our trials. We all go through trials God means our trials and our suffering through our trials for good. One day we will be rewarded beyond our wildest dreams for enduring our trials as Peter and Paul and even Christ promise. Joseph's imprisonment into the Pitt and being sold into slavery was predestined by God. Because that evil had go happen for Joseph to come into Pharoahs favor and for him to save his brothers from starvation.
So I can go out and commit adultery and then murder someone and it's all fine because God has preordained it?
So I can go out and commit adultery and then murder someone and it's all fine because God has preordained it?
(I’m new to this forum and this is my first post, so please bear with me if I inadvertently break protocol or step on anybody’s toes.)
The issue is not whether Arminians believe in God’s sovereignty, since they categorically do. The issue is to determine what God in His sovereignty has actually ordained. Roger E. Olson in his book Arminian Theology: Myths and Reality (available for free at Z-Library. The world's largest ebook library.) writes, “Classical Arminianism interprets God’s sovereignty and providence differently than Calvinism without in any way denying them; God is in charge of everything without controlling everything.” Going to the original sources, rather than depending on secondhand information which might be distorted, Jacob Arminius himself wrote, “I declare that it [God’s providence] preserves, regulates, governs and directs all things, and that nothing in the world happens fortuitously or by chance”, (The Writings of James Arminius, Vol. I, 210). Dr. Norman Geisler, who describes himself as a moderate Calvinist and is an excellent source of balanced information, writes in his Systematic Theology, “God’s providence relates to the means by which He controls His creation so as to accomplish His sovereign will for it… Providence stands between two extremes: fatalism and indeterminism. The former maintains certainty but denies freedom, while the latter maintains spontaneity but denies certainty. Divine providence, however, maintains both certainty and liberty.” (Systematic Theology in One Volume, 880, 881).
Imagine the history of humanity as if it were like an open chess tournament in which God has decided to participate and win. He can win all His games in this tournament in one of two ways: 1) When God sits at the chessboard to play a game against His opponent, He not only makes His own moves but He also makes all of His opponents moves too, thereby insuring that He wins the game, or 2) God sits at the chessboard and allows His opponent to make his own moves, but God is able to out-maneuver and counter every move His opponent makes and win the game. Either way, God wins the chess tournament as He had determined to do. Calvinists will tend to think that God won the tournament by using the first method, while Arminians will think that God won by the second method. But both groups had no doubt that when God decided to win the tournament, the outcome was certain.
Yeah, me too!Thank you for the excellent post. One of the difficulties with your chess game analogy is that in the second scenario God may allow his opponent to free make his own moves, but God, being omniscient, has known all of the moves his opponent will make and thus is easily able to outwit His opponent, thereby having done so at the distinct disadvantage of the opponent. I, for one, would not take on a chess opponent who has foreknown my moves since eternity.
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