I'm trying to understand this part of Arminianism

[Andrewn]

God does choose atheists /wave hi ex atheist here. God chooses from every tribe, people and nation.

There still a lot of people whom He does not choose. Whether they're a majority or a minority is beside the question.

I'd rather say that God offers His grace and knowledge to all people and some reject Him just as in Romans 1 & 2.

 

[Radagast]

I'd rather say that God offers His grace and knowledge to all people

I'm sure that you would rather say that, but that doesn't make you right.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm sure that you would rather say that, but that doesn't make you right.

Yes. Despite what sentimental folks wish to think, the vast majority of humanity throughout human history have had not the slightest scintilla of knowledge of either the Jewish or the Christian faith.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Yes. Despite what sentimental folks wish to think, the vast majority of humanity throughout human history have had not the slightest scintilla of knowledge of either the Jewish or the Christian faith.

Really? I'm talking major empires here but a lot of major empires of the world had knowledge of the true God.

The villages of Sodom and Gamorah had knowledge of the Jewish God because apparently they cried out to him before God brought down judgement on them (Genesis 18:20-21). The Egyptians knew about the Jewish God because they enslaved his people and he later chose Moses to free them from their slavery. They probably have knowledge of him before that but I'm just talking about what can be proven with scripture. The Romans knew about him for many, many years. The Goths knew about him, The Mongolian Empire, The Hunnic Empire, The Chinese/Japanese the list just goes on. Every tribe and nation not only has saved people from that nation but also, knowledge of God. Also, Pre flood everyone knew about the true God of the universe but many rejected him. Thanks to the spread of Christianity and the spread of Rumors of just how powerful the Israelic God was, People have had knowledge of the true God of the universe for millennia, it's whether or not they accept him that's the question. I think what you're going for is more on the level of "Few accepted him from a majority of the population." Which, might be true in the past. But, I'm sorry I believe God when he said that our descendants come from every tribe, people, and nation. When I think of salvation being a large number of people I think of Humanity as a whole over the last 6,000 ish years of our worlds history. People have always had knowledge of God, they've rejected or accepted him based on God rather than themselves.

Now that literally billions of people believe in the true God of the universe (I'm aware not everyone claiming faith is truly born again. But, I do in fact believe each generation now probably has at the very least hundreds of millions of born again Christians and Jews alike). If you add up all the born again people with the people of old I do believe we have an uncountable number here from every nation well into the billions or maybe it surpasses even *MY* wildest dreams and could be in the Trillions. I don't know, I'll find out one day. But, that's what God promised us, and that's what I believe. I don't believe the saved are a small number because scripture doesn't say so. When God said few find the path he was trying to talk in the terms of just how small the way to salvation was. There literally only is one way, Jesus Christ. If you don't go through Jesus Christ than, you cannot be saved. Not only that but if you do not go through God's plan for salvation you cannot be saved either. It's a VERY small path.

But, that's just IMO.

 

[Neostarwcc]

There still a lot of people whom He does not choose. Whether they're a majority or a minority is beside the question.

I'd rather say that God offers His grace and knowledge to all people and some reject Him just as in Romans 1 & 2.

As I said in my reply above that depends on the time of history. Ever since Protestantism was founded we've seen a lot more converts to Christianity and compared to several hundred years ago a lot more people live on Earth today. Like I said, almost half of the worlds population today claims faith in Jesus Christ. At the very least hundred of millions of those have to be "true" converts.

Honestly, Christianity has spread like wildfire. When I'm evangelizing 90% of the time I meet people who are Christians already. Probably 90% of those are actual true converts in my eyes. But, you're right this era also has a lot of atheists and people who believe in other Gods. But, think about it, in the 17-1800s virtually everyone either believed in God or in the Christian God. Probably more people believed in Christ than others. There were very few atheists around. Like today, I'm not saying everyone of those people who believed in Christ were true converts, but a majority of them probably were. The last generation? I don't have a single grandparent who didn't believe in the Christian God and most of them were born in the 20s and are with Christ now. Most of thier 13 children also are believers. My father isn't and a few of my aunts and uncles aren't and fell away from their Protestant upbringing. It really isn't until this generation that Atheism really became prevalent and those raised in the Christian faith are deserting it. I'm not saying it didn't happen before, it just was more unlikely.


But also in this generation we're nearing the end of the world in my opinion. The world is becoming more anti-Godly with each and every passing breath. People like you and me who want to keep the Christian faith in the world and want to live by the bible are getting fewer and fewer and with each generation from us, it's going to get worse and worse. There will ALWAYS be Godly people out there but, pretty soon they will be very few. But, you cannot see those few and say "God only chose very few people." you forget the billions of people that were saved before that period of time and are with Christ now.

 

[Andrewn]

It really isn't until this generation that Atheism really became prevalent and those raised in the Christian faith are deserting it. I'm not saying it didn't happen before, it just was more unlikely. But also in this generation we're nearing the end of the world in my opinion. The world is becoming more anti-Godly with each and every passing breath.

I think in previous generations there were more hypocrites who went to church bec of social pressure. There is no more social pressure and those who are atheists in heart are able to declare their unbelief.

This having been said, I completely agree with you that unbelief is exponentially increasing. I think we are witnessing the Great Apostasy spoken of in 2Th 2 as we get closer to the end of this world.

 

[Neostarwcc]

I think in previous generations there were more hypocrites who went to church bec of social pressure. There is no more social pressure and those who are atheists in heart are able to declare their unbelief.

This having been said, I completely agree with you that unbelief is exponentially increasing. I think we are witnessing the Great Apostasy spoken of in 2Th 2 as we get closer to the end of this world.

Some of them yes, the Church forced you to believe or you would be executed but also, we had a lot more Godly people back then interested in living out scripture. Laws were based on scripture, they just were times for God really.

Also I hate to admit it but America after they had seceded from England also made their own Godly laws that counteracted the "bad" ones that existed in England. (I don't agree with the American Revolution at all. But, I never did for almost my whole life this isn't a new belief.) The early American people wanted to counteract the bad teachings in the church in those days and have freedom of Christian religion.

It's true that even Calvin used force to gain converts. But, these are bad events in our worlds history. It's also true that Americans enslaved the blacks, Massacred the Indians. The crusades are also true, it's also true that Joan of Arc probably one of the best Christians who ever existed who was probably the most on fire for God, was burned at the stake by the British for being a witch.

Our history isn't perfect and I didn't mean to claim it was. I was just claiming Godly people were more common back then.

Today, laws are based on what Satan says, the common belief of life after death is blackness or "we become ghosts" or "All Good people go to heaven." Even the pope who is supposed to be the head of the Catholic church said "Even atheists go to heaven." in an effort to gain the support of people and to convert as many people as possible.

Many sections of the Church aren't based on the Bible at all but are again based on gaining as many converts as possible. But, today there still are a lot of Godly churches out there. Interested on preaching the word of God for what it is, and what they believe scripture says, across all denominations. Come 300 years in the future that won't be the case as much, but we are at least holding onto the fundamental teachings of Christianity. There still is hope for the world.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Really? I'm talking major empires here but a lot of major empires of the world had knowledge of the true God.

The villages of Sodom and Gamorah had knowledge of the Jewish God because apparently they cried out to him before God brought down judgement on them (Genesis 18:20-21). The Egyptians knew about the Jewish God because they enslaved his people and he later chose Moses to free them from their slavery. They probably have knowledge of him before that but I'm just talking about what can be proven with scripture. The Romans knew about him for many, many years. The Goths knew about him, The Mongolian Empire, The Hunnic Empire, The Chinese/Japanese the list just goes on. Every tribe and nation not only has saved people from that nation but also, knowledge of God. Also, Pre flood everyone knew about the true God of the universe but many rejected him. Thanks to the spread of Christianity and the spread of Rumors of just how powerful the Israelic God was, People have had knowledge of the true God of the universe for millennia, it's whether or not they accept him that's the question. I think what you're going for is more on the level of "Few accepted him from a majority of the population." Which, might be true in the past. But, I'm sorry I believe God when he said that our descendants come from every tribe, people, and nation. When I think of salvation being a large number of people I think of Humanity as a whole over the last 6,000 ish years of our worlds history. People have always had knowledge of God, they've rejected or accepted him based on God rather than themselves.

Now that literally billions of people believe in the true God of the universe (I'm aware not everyone claiming faith is truly born again. But, I do in fact believe each generation now probably has at the very least hundreds of millions of born again Christians and Jews alike). If you add up all the born again people with the people of old I do believe we have an uncountable number here from every nation well into the billions or maybe it surpasses even *MY* wildest dreams and could be in the Trillions. I don't know, I'll find out one day. But, that's what God promised us, and that's what I believe. I don't believe the saved are a small number because scripture doesn't say so. When God said few find the path he was trying to talk in the terms of just how small the way to salvation was. There literally only is one way, Jesus Christ. If you don't go through Jesus Christ than, you cannot be saved. Not only that but if you do not go through God's plan for salvation you cannot be saved either. It's a VERY small path.

But, that's just IMO.

You will search all the scriptures of Hinduism (and there are many) in vain to find any concept of a monotheistic being who we know as God. Although Hindu theology is vastly complex as is their pantheon of deities, the closest one might come would be the god, Krishna, who is considered to be highly significant, but does not share most of the characteristics of the Judeo-Christian god.

Bhuddism, which is an off-shoot of Hinduism, is even further removed from any form of theism. The primary belief is that enlightenment is achieved primarily through meditation and asceticism and that when enlightenment is achieved one attains a state of nirvana, which is non-existence, which is quite the opposite of Christian heaven. Various branches of Bhuddism have developed over the centuries, but none resemble Christian thought at all.

As for native American religions, the field is quite vast and one might associate the "Great Spirit" of some with the God of the Bible, but the religions practiced by the major empires, such as the Inca, Toltec, and Maya did not contain much, if anything, related to an understanding of God.

 

[Neostarwcc]

How could he have been "tempted in all ways as we are and yet without sin" if in fact he had no choice? (1 Corinthians 10:13)

Exactly, if Jesus Christ did not live a sinless life than humanity would have had zero chance at salvation. Jesus HAD to live a perfect life and be tempted in all of the ways as humanity was in order for God to forgive us. There is no forgiveness without the perfection and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. He was tempted with power by the devil, he was tempted to disobey God, he was tempted by greed, he was tempted in each and every way where humanity falls massively short of God's perfection. Not only was it necessary but it also allowed Jesus Christ to understand exactly what humanity goes through each and everyday of our lives. It allowed him to become our mediator to God.

 

[Neostarwcc]

The whole point of Arminianism is to deny that, at least partly.

I suppose so. But, it's a foreign concept to me. Considering how complex this world is, there has to be either a complete random chance of evolution (And yet that random chance functions perfectly) or a smart designer and sustainer. And not just Earth either, look out in space all of the stars, planets and galaxies. There are probably an infinite amount of galaxies out there that are apparently constantly expanding and yet, it all functions perfectly.

I know you agree with me, just kind of befuddles me how people can deny this. I get wanting to reject that God chose the saved and lost and coming up with an alternate theology to counteract the old belief. I don't get get rejecting the sovereignty of God over at least the universe and all that's in it. The Bible talks about God's Sovereignty over all over and over again (Colossians 1:16-17, Job 42:2, Proverbs 16:33 ... just all over the place). Hmm idk. I guess I'll never fully understand theology lol.

*edit* oops I just realized my browser was messing up and I'm quoting stuff that was posted a week ago. *blush*

 

[Neostarwcc]

You will search all the scriptures of Hinduism (and there are many) in vain to find any concept of a monotheistic being who we know as God. Although Hindu theology is vastly complex as is their pantheon of deities, the closest one might come would be the god, Krishna, who is considered to be highly significant, but does not share most of the characteristics of the Judeo-Christian god.

Bhuddism, which is an off-shoot of Hinduism, is even further removed from any form of theism. The primary belief is that enlightenment is achieved primarily through meditation and asceticism and that when enlightenment is achieved one attains a state of nirvana, which is non-existence, which is quite the opposite of Christian heaven. Various branches of Bhuddism have developed over the centuries, but none resemble Christian thought at all.

As for native American religions, the field is quite vast and one might associate the "Great Spirit" of some with the God of the Bible, but the religions practiced by the major empires, such as the Inca, Toltec, and Maya did not contain much, if anything, related to an understanding of God.

I'm not talking about the various religions I was mostly talking about the people living in each Empire. We cannot expect every religion that's ever existed to match Judaism or Christianity. Especially when we as humans have the tenancy to create or own and follow pagan gods. Scripture proves though that there are saved Romans, Greeks, and various other empires that existed shortly after Christ's death thanks to the work of the apostle Paul. I do believe there are saved Egyptians as well not counting Moses who would be the most famous of them all, and Egypt was probably the most pagan nation of all time. When God said every nation on Earth would be blessed by Abraham, I believe him. I see it today and I believe it happened in history.

But you are right, Hinduism has no concept of a monotheistic god. However, there are Christians that live in India. It's their third largest religion actually. Christianity in India - Wikipedia

Also while Buddhism is a major religion in China and Japan, Christians do in fact live in both countries and are openly allowed to express their religion there (afaik). Although they're a very small minority of the population. You're right, most Japanese people are of the Shinto or Buddhist faith.

There are also Christian Native Americans I know of a few in a native reservation near where I live. While salvation for all nations might not have existed in all periods of time, it has existed for all nations.

Christianity has spread throughout the entire world there really isn't a native tribe or small section of the earth these days that hasn't been given a Bible and doesn't know about Jesus Christ and they all have people who believe in him. But before Christ died, Nations had an idea of the Jewish God. Many were afraid of him like I said. Just most people didn't believe in him. I do believe however, that some did. The exception might be Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't know, that's a grey area.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I'm not talking about the various religions I was mostly talking about the people living in each Empire. We cannot expect every religion that's ever existed to match Judaism or Christianity. Especially when we as humans have the tenancy to create or own and follow pagan gods. Scripture proves though that there are saved Romans, Greeks, and various other empires that existed shortly after Christ's death thanks to the work of the apostle Paul. I do believe there are saved Egyptians as well not counting Moses who would be the most famous of them all, and Egypt was probably the most pagan nation of all time. When God said every nation on Earth would be blessed by Abraham, I believe him. I see it today and I believe it happened in history.

But you are right, Hinduism has no concept of a monotheistic god. However, there are Christians that live in India. It's their third largest religion actually. Christianity in India - Wikipedia

Also while Buddhism is a major religion in China and Japan, Christians do in fact live in both countries and are openly allowed to express their religion there (afaik). Although they're a very small minority of the population. You're right, most Japanese people are of the Shinto or Buddhist faith.

There are also Christian Native Americans I know of a few in a native reservation near where I live. While salvation for all nations might not have existed in all periods of time, it has existed for all nations.

Christianity has spread throughout the entire world there really isn't a native tribe or small section of the earth these days that hasn't been given a Bible and doesn't know about Jesus Christ and they all have people who believe in him. But before Christ died, Nations had an idea of the Jewish God. Many were afraid of him like I said. Just most people didn't believe in him. I do believe however, that some did. The exception might be Sodom and Gomorrah. I don't know, that's a grey area.

I understand. You are limiting your narrative to, at best, 10% of humanity. Thus, you have limited Paul's discourse in Romans 1 to only 10% of humanity, thus throwing wide open the door for semi-universalism. If the other 90% of humanity which I described above, never had any concept of God and thus never rejected that concept and embraced all of the sins and idolatry described in Romans 1, then God would be manifestly unjust to condemn them to an eternity in the lake of fire, would he not?

Although the entire Bible has been translated into languages understood by most people in the world, the fact remains that the vast majority of people today either have no access to reading it for various reasons (government interference, religious intolerance, and illiteracy being the primary reasons). It is an unknown book for the vast majority of the 1.4 billion people of China, the 1.2 billion or so people of India, and the untold hundreds of millions of Muslims, the majority of "Orthodox" Christians in countries such as Russia, and the vast majority of Roman Catholics just to mention the the primary groups that do have the Bible translated into their languages.

Not only are these people quite ignorant of the Bible they, at best, harbor only the slightest knowledge of God as revealed in the Bible.