I'm trying to understand this part of Arminianism

[Neostarwcc]

Okay so my question is this, you know how many times in our lives we meet the right people that God wants us to meet? We're in the places where God wants us to be and not only many times do we make really good friends but we also succeed in bringing people to Christ? How does an Arminian view this? Is this God's sovereignty working in our lives or is this just pure chance? If its pure chance how does the same exact sheep that God wants to save from before the foundation of the world up being saved?

Where does God's sovereignty fit in the Arminian world? Surely you dont reject God's sovreignty and power which is plastered all over the Bible? God has to be in control of some things (let alone everything) or he isn't God. God has to be in control of DNA, molecules, or debris or how would our world function? How do you think you met your spouse? Or got into the perfect job that you got into? Graduated from college at just the right time cementing whatever career you wanted for yourself? How does God know your name and know what college you went to and everything about you if hes not sovereign?

Yes, God can see the future so naturally he'd know these things but dlnt you believe in Election just a little bit? You cannot deny that election is taught in the Bible. God's election doesnt just stop at David, Moses, Joeseph, Daniel ...etc right? If you do reject that than why WERE they chosen by God if every human has freewill? If Moses had the freewill decisions couldnt he have chosen to not listen to God and not free Israel from slavery? Couldnt Adam and Eve have not disobeyed God? Or Noah not built the arc? Why did all of the important men of history obey God exactly the way God wanted them to?

I'm not trying to turn this into a Calvinism vs Arminian debate again. I'm just curious as to how the mind of an Arminian works in this sense. I'm actually kind of befuddled that someone could not believe in God's sovereignty when its plastered throughout the Bible? Not only that but God's sovereignty can be seen in our everyday lives if we just examine the moments. There are moments in our lives that ONLY God could have setup.

 

[Tra Phull]

God is sovereign - sovereign enough to give man free will.
Predestination is according to foreknowledge, foreknowledge of who will believe and persist in believing.

 

[Neostarwcc]

God is sovereign - sovereign enough to give man free will.
Predestination is according to foreknowledge, foreknowledge of who will believe and persist in believing.

Yes I understand that argument. That predestination is based on God looking into the future.

You're admitting God's sovreignty. So I guess my question is now how does his sovreignty work if he's not sovreign over at least some things. I've brought up DNA and molecules and dust and the weather and whatnot. Ok you dont deny that at least. But what about the moments in our lives that cannot be denied that God was in control of that and set it up. In the Arminian world is God in control of everything except for our freewill choices of accepting Christ? If yes, Why would his sovreignty be only limited to that one thing? Because of God's love and not wanting us to be robots? I'm sorry again I'm only trying to understand the theology behind this I'm not trying to debate.

I know in Arminian Theology God looked into the future to see who would accept Christ but how are we able to accept Christ if God has to grant acceptance to us? Wouldnt God if he looked into the future just see his need to interfere with his completely fallen creation which he does in order for us to even accept him in the first place?

That's why Jesus came to Earth right? To die for our sins and have God be able to grant justification to his sheep. Gof obviously saw the need to interfere with his creation or he wouldnt have seen the need to die for us would he? Without Christs death there IS no salvation.

 

[Tra Phull]

You fantasize of "the Arminian world" and perhaps do not understand that there are differences among Arminians. There are OSAS Arminians and OSnAS Arminians.

I would not say God HAS TO GRANT this or that.

Prevenient Grace is a concept of God enabling fallen man to believe and be saved. I am not sure if I could explain it adequately to you, in fact I am not sure if I could say anything that would enable you to "get inside the mind of an Arminian" - if you could do that fully, you would perhaps become an Arminian.

 

[Neostarwcc]

You fantasize of "the Arminian world" and perhaps do not understand that there are differences among Arminians. There are OSAS Arminians and OSnAS Arminians.

I would not say God HAS TO GRANT this or that.

Prevenient Grace is a concept of God enabling fallen man to believe and be saved. I am not sure if I could explain it adequately to you, in fact I am not sure if I could say anything that would enable you to "get inside the mind of an Arminian" - if you could do that fully, you would perhaps become an Arminian.

Oh I'm aware which is why I was hoping to get replies from everyone eventually. I dont think Protestants who reject OSAS would have different things to say about this issue though. *shrug*

If God doesnt have to grant the ability to accept Christ why did he have to die for us and why did God say that God the Fathrr has to grant it to the person being saved? If we could accept God as sinners wouldnt God just have come to earth and said "accept me and you will live, reject me and you will die?" He would have had no need to die.

Naturally we have to be cleansed of our sinful nature right? We cant enter God's presence as sinners or we would all be living with God today.

 

[Tra Phull]

God chooses to enable people to believe.
No one can come to me unless my Father draws him.
I would not say that that DRAWING is being dragged against their wills; I believe there is a SYNERGY of things on God's part and on man's part.

 

[eleos1954]

Okay so my question is this, you know how many times in our lives we meet the right people that God wants us to meet? We're in the places where God wants us to be and not only many times do we make really good friends but we also succeed in bringing people to Christ? How does an Arminian view this? Is this God's sovereignty working in our lives or is this just pure chance? If its pure chance how does the same exact sheep that God wants to save from before the foundation of the world up being saved?

Where does God's sovereignty fit in the Arminian world? Surely you dont reject God's sovreignty and power which is plastered all over the Bible? God has to be in control of some things (let alone everything) or he isn't God. God has to be in control of DNA, molecules, or debris or how would our world function? How do you think you met your spouse? Or got into the perfect job that you got into? Graduated from college at just the right time cementing whatever career you wanted for yourself? How does God know your name and know what college you went to and everything about you if hes not sovereign?

Yes, God can see the future so naturally he'd know these things but dlnt you believe in Election just a little bit? You cannot deny that election is taught in the Bible. God's election doesnt just stop at David, Moses, Joeseph, Daniel ...etc right? If you do reject that than why WERE they chosen by God if every human has freewill? If Moses had the freewill decisions couldnt he have chosen to not listen to God and not free Israel from slavery? Couldnt Adam and Eve have not disobeyed God? Or Noah not built the arc? Why did all of the important men of history obey God exactly the way God wanted them to?

I'm not trying to turn this into a Calvinism vs Arminian debate again. I'm just curious as to how the mind of an Arminian works in this sense. I'm actually kind of befuddled that someone could not believe in God's sovereignty when its plastered throughout the Bible? Not only that but God's sovereignty can be seen in our everyday lives if we just examine the moments. There are moments in our lives that ONLY God could have setup.

God is indeed sovereign ... no doubt about it .... no one I know dismisses that fact ... however He chooses to deal with humanity out of Love ... in fact states ... the greatest of these is Love.

Why did all of the important men of history obey God exactly the way God wanted them to?

They did not .... they all had their faults ... though faulty He gave them grace out of His love for them.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

John 3:16 ESV / 18 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Election

Romans 8:28-29. What does God call us to? What does He choose us for?

This passage specifically states that God predestined humans to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is not saying that God predestines us either to be saved or to be condemned, and that we have no choice in the matter.

In other words, the election is for the purpose of our transformation. We are to be changed to reflect the Son of God. This transformation is then promised in the following verse (Rom. 8:30), in which Paul, the author, states that those whom God calls He also justifies (makes us righteous) and glorifies (sanctifies). Thus we are not left to transform ourselves, but rather, God promises to accomplish this transformation by His power.

Romans 9:1-33. What kind of election or call of God is described in this chapter?

In Romans chapter 9 Paul discusses God’s election to a specific task. The Israelites were chosen to bring the good news about God to the world. The phrase “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated” (Rom. 9:13, NKJV) is commonly misunderstood to mean that God loved only one of the brothers.

However, in the context of this passage, Paul is saying that Jacob was chosen but Esau was not. What was Jacob chosen for? To be the father of the Israelite nation. Thus, there are two types of election/choosing that God does.

First, God chooses every single one of us for salvation and wants us to be transformed into the image of Jesus. Second, God chooses different people for specific tasks.

 

[Gregorikos]

Okay so my question is this, you know how many times in our lives we meet the right people that God wants us to meet? We're in the places where God wants us to be and not only many times do we make really good friends but we also succeed in bringing people to Christ? How does an Arminian view this? Is this God's sovereignty working in our lives or is this just pure chance? If its pure chance how does the same exact sheep that God wants to save from before the foundation of the world up being saved?

Where does God's sovereignty fit in the Arminian world? Surely you dont reject God's sovreignty and power which is plastered all over the Bible? God has to be in control of some things (let alone everything) or he isn't God. God has to be in control of DNA, molecules, or debris or how would our world function? How do you think you met your spouse? Or got into the perfect job that you got into? Graduated from college at just the right time cementing whatever career you wanted for yourself? How does God know your name and know what college you went to and everything about you if hes not sovereign?

Yes, God can see the future so naturally he'd know these things but dlnt you believe in Election just a little bit? You cannot deny that election is taught in the Bible. God's election doesnt just stop at David, Moses, Joeseph, Daniel ...etc right? If you do reject that than why WERE they chosen by God if every human has freewill? If Moses had the freewill decisions couldnt he have chosen to not listen to God and not free Israel from slavery? Couldnt Adam and Eve have not disobeyed God? Or Noah not built the arc? Why did all of the important men of history obey God exactly the way God wanted them to?

I'm not trying to turn this into a Calvinism vs Arminian debate again. I'm just curious as to how the mind of an Arminian works in this sense. I'm actually kind of befuddled that someone could not believe in God's sovereignty when its plastered throughout the Bible? Not only that but God's sovereignty can be seen in our everyday lives if we just examine the moments. There are moments in our lives that ONLY God could have setup.

Arminians still believe in the sovereignty of God. This is written from an Arminian perspective:

The Bible is clear about the fact that God is omniscient (i.e., he knows everything, Ps 44:21; 139:1-6; 147:5), and he is actively involved in people’s lives and in the world he created (Ac 17:26-28). The Bible is equally clear, however, that people have a choice whether or not to follow God (Dt 30:19; Jos 24:15; Jn 1:12; 6:37; 13:20); and that choice determines whether or not they will spend eternity with him (Jn 3:36; 5:40; Rev 16:9). The fact that God knows all possibilities and the eventual outcome of any given situation (cf. Isa 42:9; Ac 2:23; 1Pe 1:2) does not mean that he causes the outcome. God is aware of everything that has taken place in the past and everything that will happen in the future, yet this does not mean that God causes everything to happen that he knows will happen–including our choices and actions. God created us with a free will to make our own decisions (Ge 2:16), which means that people are still responsible for their choices and the consequences that result (Mt 12:36; Ro 14:12; Heb 4:13). Ephesians 1:16 (Fire Study Bible)

 

[bbbbbbb]

I think the issue can probably be better examined as being that of monergism vs. synergism. Using that dichotomy, to what extent does God require the assistance of people in order to save them (synergism) with the corollary question being, does God do anything to save people, other than having sent Jesus Christ to die for the sins of the world? If God does not do anything, is it because He is incapable of doing anything, or is He merely unwilling to do anything?

 

[Neostarwcc]

I'm sorry guys I literally only have a few minutes left to get ready. I'll try to reply later today I've skimmed a few of your answers. I have to send my sleep study back to the company so they can send it to the doctor and he can hopefully give me my pressures within the next week or so so I can finally fix my bipap. I've been without my bipap since June 12th so yeah... over a month now *sigh*. It's sucked only sleeping a few hours a night for over a month.

 

[Neostarwcc]

God is indeed sovereign ... no doubt about it .... no one I know dismisses that fact ... however He chooses to deal with humanity out of Love ... in fact states ... the greatest of these is Love.



They did not .... they all had their faults ... though faulty He gave them grace out of His love for them.

Hebrews 12:2
Looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

John 3:16 ESV / 18 helpful votes
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Election

Romans 8:28-29. What does God call us to? What does He choose us for?

This passage specifically states that God predestined humans to be conformed to the image of His Son. It is not saying that God predestines us either to be saved or to be condemned, and that we have no choice in the matter.

In other words, the election is for the purpose of our transformation. We are to be changed to reflect the Son of God. This transformation is then promised in the following verse (Rom. 8:30), in which Paul, the author, states that those whom God calls He also justifies (makes us righteous) and glorifies (sanctifies). Thus we are not left to transform ourselves, but rather, God promises to accomplish this transformation by His power.

Romans 9:1-33. What kind of election or call of God is described in this chapter?

In Romans chapter 9 Paul discusses God’s election to a specific task. The Israelites were chosen to bring the good news about God to the world. The phrase “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated” (Rom. 9:13, NKJV) is commonly misunderstood to mean that God loved only one of the brothers.

However, in the context of this passage, Paul is saying that Jacob was chosen but Esau was not. What was Jacob chosen for? To be the father of the Israelite nation. Thus, there are two types of election/choosing that God does.

First, God chooses every single one of us for salvation and wants us to be transformed into the image of Jesus. Second, God chooses different people for specific tasks.

But they did. I'm not talking about perfect obedience not even Isaiah probably the greatest Prophet of all time had perfect obedience I'm not claiming this.

But what I am claiming/asking is that they obeyed God to the point of their chosen purposes each unique and each crucial for Gods work on the cross. Even we as Christian's have work from God that is crucial to the salvation and education of God's sheep. Why do every single one of us obey? And not only obey but obey perfectly in the sense of our purposes here on earth? If we didnt obey God perfectly in our purposes than God cannot promise to mot lose one person in the book of life because humanity plays a massive roll in their salvation. I know your answer we dont because of free will but... you cannot deny that God is at work here. That all of Gods true sheep obey God and not only obey but do the very works and purpose that God created us all for. Why did God choose them/us for their/our own works which, every single one of us DID obey. Moses for an example freed the Israelites from slavery and had open conversations with God. Had Moses told God no our salvation never would have happened nor the salvation of Israel. But yet, he believed and obeyed God. Or Noah? Had Noah not obeyed God perfectly in building the ark humanity would have ceased to exist and you and I wouldnt be here nor anyone. His works were extremely crucial to not only our salvation but our very existance.

What are the odds that only one Holy person on the entire Earth existed? God was clearly at work. I can go on and on about the Prophets, Samson, and every person chosen by God that each played their each unique roll in God's ultimate plan. Do you understand my question now? I cant explain it any deeper than that. I realize our two theologies believe two different things on this very subject but, God has to be at work, yes? If not, why did we perfectly fulfill God's plan for us?

 

[Neostarwcc]

Arminians still believe in the sovereignty of God. This is written from an Arminian perspective:

The Bible is clear about the fact that God is omniscient (i.e., he knows everything, Ps 44:21; 139:1-6; 147:5), and he is actively involved in people’s lives and in the world he created (Ac 17:26-28). The Bible is equally clear, however, that people have a choice whether or not to follow God (Dt 30:19; Jos 24:15; Jn 1:12; 6:37; 13:20); and that choice determines whether or not they will spend eternity with him (Jn 3:36; 5:40; Rev 16:9). The fact that God knows all possibilities and the eventual outcome of any given situation (cf. Isa 42:9; Ac 2:23; 1Pe 1:2) does not mean that he causes the outcome. God is aware of everything that has taken place in the past and everything that will happen in the future, yet this does not mean that God causes everything to happen that he knows will happen–including our choices and actions. God created us with a free will to make our own decisions (Ge 2:16), which means that people are still responsible for their choices and the consequences that result (Mt 12:36; Ro 14:12; Heb 4:13). Ephesians 1:16 (Fire Study Bible)

Thank you! That clears up a lot of my questions. I think I'm starting to get the basics of Arminianism now.

 

[Radagast]

Surely you dont reject God's sovreignty and power which is plastered all over the Bible?

Some Arminians (the Open Theist ones) certainly do reject God's sovereignty.

Other Arminians, as I understand them, claim that God has limited His own sovereignty in various ways, in order to guarantee "libertarian free will" for people.

Personally, this second perspective seems to me to be logically incoherent; guaranteeing "libertarian free will" logically requires denying both God's sovereignty and God's foreknowledge (as the Open Theists do).

If Moses had the freewill decisions

"Free will" has several different meanings. Everybody needs to be a lot more clear about which they mean.

Calvinists, for example, accept "compatibilist free will."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Some Arminians (the Open Theist ones) certainly do reject God's sovereignty.

Other Arminians, as I understand them, claim that God has limited His own sovereignty in various ways.

"Free will" has several different meanings. Everybody needs to be a lot more clear about which they mean.

The definition of "free will" is absolutely vital to any discussion of Arminianism. Most who claim the title of Arminian have, at best, vague understandings of the term. In my experience, nobody actually believes that mankind possesses an utterly free will, unfettered by sin or vice of any sort.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Some Arminians (the Open Theist ones) certainly do reject God's sovereignty.

Other Arminians, as I understand them, claim that God has limited His own sovereignty in various ways, in order to guarantee "libertarian free will" for people.

Personally, this second perspective seems to me to be logically incoherent; guaranteeing "libertarian free will" logically requires denying both God's sovereignty and God's foreknowledge (as the Open Theists do).



"Free will" has several different meanings. Everybody needs to be a lot more clear about which they mean.

Calvinists, for example, accept "compatibilist free will."

Still any important saved person in history could have told God no. What is the arminian theory as to why not only we dont but we obey God's plan perfectly. Surely God has to be in control of some sort. There' cannot be a coincidence or a free will decision because you would think if we had free will one of us would have said no right? But yet we all serve our purposes given to us by God.

 

[Radagast]

Surely God has to be in control of some sort.

The whole point of Arminianism is to deny that, at least partly.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Still any important saved person in history could have told God no. What is the arminian theory as to why not only we dont but we obey God's plan perfectly. Surely God has to be in control of some sort. There' cannot be a coincidence or a free will decision because you would think if we had free will one of us would have said no right? But yet we all serve our purposes given to us by God.

That raises the very problematic doctrine of the impeccability of Jesus Christ. Assuredly, He was the most important person in history and He was tempted here on earth by Satan himself. Could Jesus have told God no and Satan yes?

 

[Gregorikos]

Here is Henry Clarence Thiessen:


It is difficult to refrain from adopting one or the other of two extremes: that
God is the sole actor in the universe or that man is the sole actor. The truth
lies somewhere between these two extremes. This fact has to be kept in mind
in connection with our conception of the freedom of man and of prayer. Note
these relations briefly:
1. The relation of providence to freedom. As has been said, God sometimes
allows man to do as he pleases; that is, he puts no restraints in the way of
man’s carrying out his wicked desires. Also, God sometimes keeps a man
from doing what, in his freedom, he would otherwise do. He uses circum-
stance, the influence of friends, and inner restraints to accomplish this purpose.
Sometimes he controls sin by allowing it to go so far and no further.
Finally, God always overrules what man does in order to accomplish his own
ends. He makes even the wrath of man to praise him.
2. The relation of providence to prayer. Some hold that prayer can have no
real effect upon God, since he has already decreed just what he will do in
every instance. But that is an extreme position. “You do not have because
you do not ask’ (James 4:2) must not be ignored. God does some things only
in answer to prayer; he does some other things without anyone’s praying;
and he does some things contrary to the prayers made. In his omniscience he
has taken all these things into account, and in his providence he sovereignly
works them out in accordance with his own purpose and plan. If we do not
pray for the things that we might get by prayer, we do not get them. If he
wants some things done for which no one prays, he will do them without
anyone’s praying. If we pray for things contrary to his will, he refuses to
grant them. Thus, there is a perfect harmony between his purpose and
providence, and man’s freedom

 

[Gregorikos]

That raises the very problematic doctrine of the impeccability of Jesus Christ. Assuredly, He was the most important person in history and He was tempted here on earth by Satan himself. Could Jesus have told God no and Satan yes?

How could he have been "tempted in all ways as we are and yet without sin" if in fact he had no choice? (1 Corinthians 10:13)

 

[eleos1954]

But they did. I'm not talking about perfect obedience not even Isaiah probably the greatest Prophet of all time had perfect obedience I'm not claiming this.

But what I am claiming/asking is that they obeyed God to the point of their chosen purposes each unique and each crucial for Gods work on the cross. Even we as Christian's have work from God that is crucial to the salvation and education of God's sheep. Why do every single one of us obey? And not only obey but obey perfectly in the sense of our purposes here on earth? If we didnt obey God perfectly in our purposes than God cannot promise to mot lose one person in the book of life because humanity plays a massive roll in their salvation. I know your answer we dont because of free will but... you cannot deny that God is at work here. That all of Gods true sheep obey God and not only obey but do the very works and purpose that God created us all for. Why did God choose them/us for their/our own works which, every single one of us DID obey. Moses for an example freed the Israelites from slavery and had open conversations with God. Had Moses told God no our salvation never would have happened nor the salvation of Israel. But yet, he believed and obeyed God. Or Noah? Had Noah not obeyed God perfectly in building the ark humanity would have ceased to exist and you and I wouldnt be here nor anyone. His works were extremely crucial to not only our salvation but our very existance.

What are the odds that only one Holy person on the entire Earth existed? God was clearly at work. I can go on and on about the Prophets, Samson, and every person chosen by God that each played their each unique roll in God's ultimate plan. Do you understand my question now? I cant explain it any deeper than that. I realize our two theologies believe two different things on this very subject but, God has to be at work, yes? If not, why did we perfectly fulfill God's plan for us?

I'll try to use this as a "example/analogy" ....

Jesus was God incarnate .... 100% man .... 100% God.

God has MANY attributes and accomplishes His purposes through all of them (and He is 100% of all of them) .... that is .... define the all the attributes that describes the total character of God .... and He may use one, some or all to accomplish His purposes .... and He is 100% of all of these ... but it is written the greatest of these is LOVE.

Yes ... He is indeed sovereign ... but he's not opposed to setting His sovereignty aside to accomplish His purposes through one ... or combination of His other attributes.

STARK example .... Jesus Himself (who is God) .... vacated His throne, lived as a human, was subjected to severe abuse, gave His life ...... why?

John 3:16

16For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through Him.

1 Corinthians

Berean Study Bible
And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.

He conquered sin/death through LOVE .... he works in the world through LOVE and always has. Even when he did (and does) chastise His people .... this is done out of LOVE. (tough love)

1 John 4:16
So we have come to know and to believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and whoever abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

God IS love. Not just the method by which He accomplishes His purposes .... but who He is ... the ultimate example of TRUE LOVE.

So the stories we read are how He does His work through sinful mankind, even through and/or in spite of their/our failures. Leading those to respond to Him in love ... and those in the stories eventually did ... often experiencing may trials and failures before responding in love ... or not (not any different throughout history, nor today, nor in the future)

We are to understand the fullness of Him ... and not get "stuck" on just one attribute of His divine character ... understanding that behind the all that He is .... the greatest is LOVE. God IS love.

Love is the greatest .... HE is the greatest.

1 Corinthians 13:4-8
Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. (His love never ends). God IS love.

We were created in His image of love ... He is all of this and MORE (on a supreme level we do endeavor to understand).

1st Corinthians 13:2
English Standard Version
And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love (Gods love), I am nothing.

Praise the Lord for His supreme power of TRUE LOVE!!!!!!