I'm through with CAF

[Root of Jesse]

You only point three back at yourself, one only has four fingers on each hand, unless something unusual happened to your hand, and one thumb, which would normally point, more or less, up ...

You saying a thumb is not a finger?

 

[MoreCoffee]

You saying a thumb is not a finger?

It doesn't point in the same direction

 

[Tallguy88]

Look, I'm not trying to say that those kinds of people don't irk me, too. There are ways to say things. The point I was making was to listen to the message of the message, and not worry about the huff and bluster, whoever it may be giving it. (My Mom couldn't get past Patton's 'sob''s and g-d's, and missed much of what he said in that speech)

I also don't believe I have to convince anyone of anything. That's the Holy Spirit's work. If I'm the instrument, Jesus says I'm not to worry about what (or how) to say it. I think it's best to remember that, when you point a finger at someone, it's good to remember that you have four pointed back at yourself.

Like I said, I'm not arguing about mass attendance. Even the post I quoted doesn't bother me. It's more along the lines that there's so much of this kind of rigid talk by armchair theologians over there that it's depressing and damaging to my own spiritual well-being to be around it for too long. You're well spoken, intelligent, and reasonable in your beliefs. I can deal with disagreements or differences in style with you. But it's just too much over there. Maybe it's like someone already said, bigger pond over there so its harder to get to know who you're dealing with. At least I kinda know what to expect from people here.

Also, while the holy spirit is the prime mover in conversion, let us not disregard our own role in that process. Remember that ignatius Mary guy who was raving about Halloween a few months ago? Remember his style? He convinced no one because he was so absolutely confrontational. Even when I agreed with his suggestions but disagreed with his premise, he went nuts.

All I'm saying is be mindful that there are far more people lurking here than posting. Your attitude will help to shape their impression of Catholics. Do you think they want to join a church full of arrogant, self-righteous blowhards? Would you? (that wasn't directed at anyone in particular, btw)

 

[MoreCoffee]

The only issue someone might have - is if they become lax and begin thinking missing Mass is fine.

One cannot receive the graces of Mass and the Eucharist if one decides Mass is only a choice to be made if one feels like going - because eventually that one will stop going altogether.

I think you are mistaken about what is happening; the sin is not missing mass - one can attend weekday mass and not Sunday mass and still be in sin, but if one attends Sunday mass and misses weekday masses then there is no sin involved.

And the reason why it is important - and why God commands it - via the Apostles giving us the New take on the Ten Commandments - becoming the Lord's Day vs Sabbath - is because we become lukewarm - or even completely fall away from Him putting our soul in peril.

The purpose to His precepts are for us - and if we deny those Laws - we deny the Good he is giving us - such as His graces.

Again you are missing the point. It is only by missing Sunday mass, and masses on other holy days of obligation, that attracts condemnation as sin. Other masses are entirely optional.

It is peril to our soul to avoid His graces - and His Holy sacrifice. Because it is for our good. It is our souls that suffer without His Magnificent Sacrifice He undertook for all time for our sake.

Once more, one may receive communion at the Holy Eucharist in a mass on weekdays and still have some difficulty because one misses Sunday mass.

I'll leave it to you to explain how missing Sunday mass differs from missing Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday etc, masses.

 

[Tallguy88]

I think you are mistaken about what is happening; the sin is not missing mass - one can attend weekday mass and not Sunday mass and still be in sin, but if one attends Sunday mass and misses weekday masses then there is no sin involved.

Again you are missing the point. It is only by missing Sunday mass, and masses on other holy days of obligation, that attracts condemnation as sin. Other masses are entirely optional.

Once more, one may receive communion at the Holy Eucharist in a mass on weekdays and still have some difficulty because one misses Sunday mass.

I'll leave it to you to explain how missing Sunday mass differs from missing Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday etc, masses.

This gets me. Why is it that I can go to every mass mon- fri then not go sat evening or sun and and it be a sin? But going sun and not during the week is fine? Just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

This gets me. Why is it that I can go to every mass mon- fri then not go sat evening or sun and and it be a sin? But going sun and not during the week is fine? Just doesn't make sense to me.

Because God commanded us to keep the Sabbath Holy.

For Christians, the Sabbath observance is on the Lords Day, Sunday, the day Jesus rose from the dead.

Jim

 

[WarriorAngel]

I think you are mistaken about what is happening; the sin is not missing mass - one can attend weekday mass and not Sunday mass and still be in sin, but if one attends Sunday mass and misses weekday masses then there is no sin involved.


Again you are missing the point. It is only by missing Sunday mass, and masses on other holy days of obligation, that attracts condemnation as sin. Other masses are entirely optional.

I agree.

Once more, one may receive communion at the Holy Eucharist in a mass on weekdays and still have some difficulty because one misses Sunday mass.

I'll leave it to you to explain how missing Sunday mass differs from missing Monday or Tuesday or Wednesday etc, masses.

If one feels that Sunday is a choice - and they dont feel like going - what is the likelihood of them attending other days.

Being it is an obligation - to attend Sunday - and some feel it is a choice rather than being obliged to worship God on the Lord's Day - the chances of them making it to weekday Mass is slim to none.
[sans having to work or other factors that is out of their control]
Because the day they are obliged to worship God - ie - the Day the Apostles made clear [see Didache] is to be celebrated by His ppl aka the Lord's day - vs the Sabbath - is part of how we obtain Grace - by remaining in His friendship.

Remaining in His friendship - [a term used by the nuns when i attended a Catholic school] is not having a mortal sin.

So if one chooses to miss Sunday Mass - they have already lost the graces of God and are in mortal sin....so how do they receive Communion in mortal sin? And moreover - how do we interpret they receive grace outside of His 'friendship'?

 

[MKJ]

This gets me. Why is it that I can go to every mass mon- fri then not go sat evening or sun and and it be a sin? But going sun and not during the week is fine? Just doesn't make sense to me.

I think it is essentially about engagement in the community. When we worship and partake of the Eucharist on Sunday, we are doing so with the bulk of the local community, and also with the larger Church outside of our own parish - it is a recognition of ourselves as part of the Body of Christ.

That isn't usually so obviously the case ay week-day masses.

But that isn't an objective state of things either - there are cases when it simply isn't true for a particular person or even family or community. It's a general statement that tells us how we should think about possible exceptions or how or own circumstances apply.

 

[MKJ]

Because God commanded us to keep the Sabbath Holy.

For Christians, the Sabbath observance is on the Lords Day, Sunday, the day Jesus rose from the dead.

Jim

I have always been under the impression that the day of worship for Christians is not connected to the Sabbath, which is still Saturday (and which we are not required to observe.)

 

[MKJ]

Then they are simply not agreeing with St John who did indeed make two categories of sin types.

Mortal and venial are both Latin terms - meaning - sins unto death aka mortal and sins not unto death aka venial.

So either the sin is unto death aka mortal or it is sin not unto death aka venial.

And the more grave the sin the category is then mortal which is Latin for 'sins unto death' - for mortal means death.

So we have two kinds of sin categories - not unto death - and unto death.

Break the ten Commandments - it is a mortal sin.
Other sins are not as serious - like anger. Though anger can lead to a mortal sin.
Etc etc etc

Humans sin daily - rudeness, hurting someone's feelings - these are not mortal sins - but still because the nature has hurt someone - and therefore went against love - they are a sin.

You certainly would not categorize hurting someone's feelings with murdering someone.

Yeah. Well, if you think this is what the Catholic Church teaches, it kind of proves my point.

While it is true that Saturday remains the seventh day and the sabbath it is also true that Sunday, the Lord's day, is - by church authority and apostolic example - set aside as a holy day of obligation for Christians, hence the warning in Hebrews that says, "Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries."
(Hebrews 10:23-27)

Yup. But it isn't the same as the Sabbath, and missing the distinction runs people into trouble. It makes it a whole lot easier to deal with people like the SDA if you know the difference, and it is just inaccurate.

 

[WarriorAngel]

Yeah. Well, if you think this is what the Catholic Church teaches, it kind of proves my point.



.

Then please enlighten me of what the Catholic Church teaches.
Obviously you are positive you know better than i do.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Yup. But it isn't the same as the Sabbath, and missing the distinction runs people into trouble. It makes it a whole lot easier to deal with people like the SDA if you know the difference, and it is just inaccurate.

Yeah, I've dealt with SDAs in GT - pushy lot eh?

The Church makes a clear distinction between Sabbath & Sunday and between law and gospel. SDAs get themselves confused because Ellen White muddies the waters for them.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

SDAs get themselves confused because Ellen White muddies the waters for them.

I agree with you. I think you are right.

 

[MKJ]

Then please enlighten me of what the Catholic Church teaches.
Obviously you are positive you know better than i do.

If you want a simple explanation of mortal sin, the CC teaches that there are a number of requirements for any sin to be mortal, and that it must be, in itself, a grave matter. They include full knowledge of what is being done and its implications, full control over oneself, and intent to do the bad thing.

This being the case, it is impossible to say that any sin, in general, is either mortal or venial. Sins do not exist as a category or an abstraction, they only exist as particular incidents in particular individuals. In any given example, the above criteria may or may not be met.

To say that any example of breaking a commandment is a mortal sin is, on the face of it, totally ridiculous. Do you really think that any time a 10 year old is disrespectful to his parents he is in mortal sin? Even sins like murder are not always mortal sins.

And on the other side, what are normally considered venial sins can surely separate people from God as much as any more outwardly impressive sin can. You suggested anger as only a venial sin - that is what in the old days used to be called wrath - one of the seven deadly sins. Anger, even fairly interior and unexpressed anger, which we allow to take root in our hearts, can be an extremely sure way to cut us off from life in Christ.

If you want a more complicated answer, I'd suggest going beyond the CCC and actually reading some of the saints and what they said about the nature of sin - Augustine who I have already mentioned in this thread is a good place to start. You might also find it useful to do some reading on theosis.

What this means is that you can't say "missing mass is a mortal sin" unless you know the specific circumstances, and then it is still an educated guess, at best. You could say that missing mass is, or can be, a grave matter, and as such it could possibly constitute a mortal sin.

 

[MoreCoffee]

If you want a simple explanation of mortal sin, the CC teaches that there are a number of requirements for any sin to be mortal, and that it must be, in itself, a grave matter. They include full knowledge of what is being done and its implications, full control over oneself, and intent to do the bad thing.

This being the case, it is impossible to say that any sin, in general, is either mortal or venial. ...

The truth is that some sins are mortal as saint John says, "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
(1 John 5:16-17)

 

[MikeK]

The truth is that some sins are mortal as saint John says, "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."
(1 John 5:16-17)

MKJ is not denying that mortal sin exists, she is (correctly) arguing against saying that action X is a mortal sin, or that people who commit action X have committed a mortal sin. None of us can know when another person has committed a mortal sin.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

MKJ is not denying that mortal sin exists, she is (correctly) arguing against saying that action X is a mortal sin, or that people who commit action X have committed a mortal sin. None of us can know when another person has committed a mortal sin.

Desecrating the Eucharist, being blasphemous, murder/abortion, rape. Some off the top of my head.

 

[Tallguy88]

If you want a simple explanation of mortal sin, the CC teaches that there are a number of requirements for any sin to be mortal, and that it must be, in itself, a grave matter. They include full knowledge of what is being done and its implications, full control over oneself, and intent to do the bad thing.

This being the case, it is impossible to say that any sin, in general, is either mortal or venial. Sins do not exist as a category or an abstraction, they only exist as particular incidents in particular individuals. In any given example, the above criteria may or may not be met.

To say that any example of breaking a commandment is a mortal sin is, on the face of it, totally ridiculous. Do you really think that any time a 10 year old is disrespectful to his parents he is in mortal sin? Even sins like murder are not always mortal sins.

And on the other side, what are normally considered venial sins can surely separate people from God as much as any more outwardly impressive sin can. You suggested anger as only a venial sin - that is what in the old days used to be called wrath - one of the seven deadly sins. Anger, even fairly interior and unexpressed anger, which we allow to take root in our hearts, can be an extremely sure way to cut us off from life in Christ.

If you want a more complicated answer, I'd suggest going beyond the CCC and actually reading some of the saints and what they said about the nature of sin - Augustine who I have already mentioned in this thread is a good place to start. You might also find it useful to do some reading on theosis.

What this means is that you can't say "missing mass is a mortal sin" unless you know the specific circumstances, and then it is still an educated guess, at best. You could say that missing mass is, or can be, a grave matter, and as such it could possibly constitute a mortal sin.

Another exceedingly good post. The knowledge and intent are what makes a grave matter mortal. It can be quite difficult to determine if someone has met all conditions for a sin to be mortal. One might also say that it isn't our business to be judging others sins in the first place, unless they're someone we have a close relationship with and are trying to help. Planks in the eye, and all that.

 

[Tallguy88]

Desecrating the Eucharist, being blasphemous, murder/abortion, rape. Some off the top of my head.

Even these would not be mortal if the person doing them didn't know they were wrong or didn't intend to do them. Although admittedly, murder and rape are pretty hard to not have all three conditions.

As a refresher, the conditions which must be met for a sin to be mortal are:

1. Grave matter.
2. Knowledge of it being grave matter.
3. Doing it with full consent of the will.

 

[MikeK]

Desecrating the Eucharist, being blasphemous, murder/abortion, rape. Some off the top of my head.

A mentally ill person could possibly commit any or all of those actions, thousands of times over, and have no mortal sin on their conscience.