I'm struggling, as an atheist, to turn off notifications...

[Alpha-Omega]

They are products of evolution and emergent phenomena arising from the need for cooperation in social species. Just google "evolution of morality". There is a vast literature on the subject. I particularly recommend world-leading primatologist Frans de Waal's book, The Bonobo and the Atheist: In Search of Humanism Among the Primates: Frans de Waal: 9780393347791: Amazon.com: Books

He makes a case for religious teaching being the outcome, not the cause of moral sentiments.

But none of this says where morality came from originally? tell me if you believe that incest is right or wrong? There is NO Authority apart from the Holy Bible that actually says that it is.

 

[Alpha-Omega]

can you explain this?

There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind: Amazon.co.uk: Antony Flew, Roy Abraham Varghese: 9780061335297: Books

 

[quatona]

But none of this says where morality came from originally?

From Spain.
Seriously, I never know how to answer this question. What does it even mean for a human faculty to "come from somewhere"? Where does making music orginally come from, for example? Where does the ability to walk "come from"?

tell me if you believe that incest is right or wrong?

Why do you ask? Would you accept my subjective opinion as being of any importance?

There is NO Authority apart from the Holy Bible that actually says that it is.

There are plenty of instances who say it is. You may not find them authoritative, though - just like others don´t consider your bible authoritative.
But most importantly, you seem to work from the idea that the origin of morality has to be some authority, or else our morality is useless. That´s where we already disagree.

 

[quatona]

can you explain this?

There Is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind: Amazon.co.uk: Antony Flew, Roy Abraham Varghese: 9780061335297: Books

What exactly do you need to be explained about people converting, deconverting, or changing their minds in general?

 

[Alpha-Omega]

From Spain.
Seriously, I never know how to answer this question. What does it even mean for a human faculty to "come from somewhere"? Where does making music orginally come from, for example? Where does the ability to walk "come from"?

Why do you ask? Would you accept my subjective opinion as being of any importance?

There are plenty of instances who say it is. You may not find them authoritative, though - just like others don´t consider your bible authoritative.
But most importantly, you seem to work from the idea that the origin of morality has to be some authority, or else our morality is useless. That´s where we already disagree.

Now you are arguing for the sake of it! There is NO other way, apart from the Holy Bible, that we have as an Authority on right and wrong, evil and good, morality and immorality. Show me an Authority earlier than the Holy Bible that says incest is sinful and wrong, and immoral? Everything that you can quote, will be AFTER as they would have got this from the Bible! Lets deal in facts.

 

[Alpha-Omega]

What exactly do you need to be explained about people converting, deconverting, or changing their minds in general?

The biggest atheist in the world, who all his life believed that there was no God, then is convinced that there is! How? Why? Don't fudge the issue by making nothing of it. This shows that ALL atheists could well be WRONG!

 

[quatona]

Now you are arguing for the sake of it!

Look, another mind reader!

There is NO other way, apart from the Holy Bible, that we have as an Authority on right and wrong, evil and good, morality and immorality.

Firstly, you would have to establish that the bible is authoritative.
Secondly, there are plenty of other moral concepts, many of which predate the bible.
Thirdly, I don´t care for a morality that is based on arbitrary decrees from an alleged authority. If your alleged authority would say that torturing people is a moral thing to do, I would still disagree.

Show me an Authority earlier than the Holy Bible that says incest is sinful and wrong, and immoral?

Firstly, you are working your way back from your assumption that incest is sinful, wrong and immoral. This circularity of arguments always makes me dizzy.
Secondly, even if the bible was the first book to come up with a certain idea - how does that suggest that the bible has it right? And even if it had something right for the first time, how does that suggest it is authoritative?

Everything that you can quote, will be AFTER as they would have got this from the Bible!

Let´s assume for a moment this were correct (I am not sure it is - and seeing how boldly you made false claims about evolution, I am not inclined to take your word for it):
So what?

Lets deal in facts.

Hypothetically assuming that the bible writers were the first to come up with the idea that "incest is immoral" is a fact - now how do you get from there to your conclusions?

 

[quatona]

The biggest atheist in the world,

Don´t be ridiculous.

who all his life believed that there was no God, then is convinced that there is! How?Why?

I don´t know - I am not a mind reader. I guess he has given his reasons somewhere.They are probably summarized in the book you linked.

Don't fudge the issue by making nothing of it.

It´s not nothing. It´s a guy changing his mind.

This shows that ALL atheists could well be WRONG!

So deconverts show that ALL theists could well be WRONG? That´s funny logic.

But, yes of course, atheists or theists could be wrong. That was never in dispute.

 

[Alpha-Omega]

Don´t be ridiculous.

I don´t know - I am not a mind reader. I guess he has given his reasons somewhere.They are probably summarized in the book you linked.


It´s not nothing. It´s a guy changing his mind.

So deconverts show that ALL theists could well be WRONG? That´s funny logic.

But, yes of course, atheists or theists could be wrong. That was never in dispute.

so you supposed to be a "seeker", what exactly are you "seeking", as it seems all to clear that you are not interested in the Truth as taught in the Holy Bible?

 

[quatona]

so you supposed to be a "seeker", what exactly are you "seeking", as it seems all to clear that you are not interested in the Truth as taught in the Holy Bible?

So you abandon your previous arguments, and start talking about labels instead? Ok.

I don´t know why CF labeled me that way. Seems to be the default label.
Other than that, I don´t think that "seeking" requires you to anticipate the result of your search.

 

[Alpha-Omega]

So you abandon your previous arguments, and start talking about labels instead? Ok.

I don´t know why CF labeled me that way. Seems to be the default label.
Other than that, I don´t think that "seeking" requires you to anticipate the result of your search.

Of course it is important, as we are here exchanging views and you know that I am an Evangelical Christian, and it would be only right that I know where you stand? You seem to defend atheism, against the Bible

 

[quatona]

Of course it is important, as we are here exchanging views and you know that I am an Evangelical Christian, and it would be only right that I know where you stand? You seem to defend atheism, against the Bible

No, I am just scrutinizing your arguments which in your evangelical zeal you felt inclined to derail a thread with.
On another note: If you are interested in my position - the standard way of going about it would be to ask.
You, however, just started criticizing the label that CF gave me.

 

[Alpha-Omega]

No, I am just scrutinizing your arguments which in your evangelical zeal you felt inclined to derail a thread with.
On another note: If you are interested in my position - the standard way of going about it would be to ask.
You, however, just started criticizing the label that CF gave me.

I criticized nothing. I am simply asking that if you are "seeking", what are you? Where is the criticism in this? All my details is what I put there, CF did not simply assign this to me. I am not going of the thread, but want to know who I am dealing with. You still cannot tell me?

 

[quatona]

I criticized nothing. I am simply asking that if you are "seeking", what are you?
Where is the criticism in this?

You were implying that - if I my goal is not to adopt your brand of Christianity - I can´t be a "seeker".
I told you I have no problem with CF giving me this label, because I don´t think "seeking" means you are seeking a particular result. Rather, it means, that you are open to whatever good ideas may come your way.

All my details is what I put there, CF did not simply assign this to me.

So? It did to me.

I am not going of the thread, but want to know who I am dealing with. You still cannot tell me?

I gave you a lot of thoughts to work with already, in response to your attempts at arguments. You decided to ignore them. Yet, if you want my opinion on something in particular, I am still willing to give it to you - even though it´s likely that you will ignore them again if they don´t fit in your apologetics script.
So what is it you want my opinion on?

 

[Barry Desborough]

But none of this says where morality came from originally? tell me if you believe that incest is right or wrong? There is NO Authority apart from the Holy Bible that actually says that it is.

Have you read de Waal?

BTW, on incest, see http://www.cep.ucsb.edu/papers/incest2003.pdf

 

[Alpha-Omega]

Have you read de Waal?

BTW, on incest, see http://www.cep.ucsb.edu/papers/incest2003.pdf

You keep fighting against the Truth. I pray the Lord opens your eyes to His Truth, the Holy Bible.

 

[Barry Desborough]

You keep fighting against the Truth. I pray the Lord opens your eyes to His Truth, the Holy Bible.

Anyone who types "Truth" with a capital letter where it is not at the beginning of a sentence has a very insecure notion of what "truth" means. I hope that one day, you will come to your senses and stop wasting the rest of your life on nonsense.

BTW, you did not answer me. Have you read the de Waal book I recommended?

 

[Alpha-Omega]

Anyone who types "Truth" with a capital letter where it is not at the beginning of a sentence has a very insecure notion of what "truth" means. I hope that one day, you will come to your senses and stop wasting the rest of your life on nonsense.

BTW, you did not answer me. Have you read the de Waal book I recommended?

What I cannot understand is, this happens to be a "Christian" forum, which is about Jesus Christ Who is Almighty God, and the Teachings of the Holy Bible. So, why do people like yourself, who are deniers of Almighty God, join when you really have no interest in God? Are you people only interested in arguing your points with no real interest in learning of the Truth of the Bible? Btw, I use capital T in Truth, when I refer to the Holy Bible, as the ONLY Truth that really matters!

 

[quatona]

What I cannot understand is, this happens to be a "Christian" forum, which is about Jesus Christ Who is Almighty God, and the Teachings of the Holy Bible. So, why do people like yourself, who are deniers of Almighty God, join when you really have no interest in God? Are you people only interested in arguing your points with no real interest in learning of the Truth of the Bible?

Look man, it was you who came to this thread and started arguing your points.

 

[Freodin]

What I cannot understand is, this happens to be a "Christian" forum, which is about Jesus Christ Who is Almighty God, and the Teachings of the Holy Bible. So, why do people like yourself, who are deniers of Almighty God, join when you really have no interest in God? Are you people only interested in arguing your points with no real interest in learning of the Truth of the Bible? Btw, I use capital T in Truth, when I refer to the Holy Bible, as the ONLY Truth that really matters!

See, this is why I doubt that you are interested in truth. Because you deliberately declare that you aren't... you are only interested in "Truth".

Did Darwin say anything about how the world began? You are not interested. If it suits your narrative, you will repeat the falsehoods that you read elsewhere, from sources who tell you they believe in Jesus.
Can morality "come from" non-divine sources? You are not interested in getting our answers.
Can people change their views without being dumbstruck by God himself? You don't care... it would go against your preconceived notions if they could.

You wiggle and waggle and shift your questions, claims, positions... but you aren't interested in answers.

I don't know if that makes you a "good" Christian or a "happy" Christian.
But it makes you a Christian who is very very bad at talking to unbelievers. Which is, I guess, another "truth" that you are not interested in.