I'm starting to lean towards post trib

[BABerean2]

1 Corinthians 15:35-58, will happen at the Great White throne Judgment, AFTER the Millennium. roved by verses 54-55, where Death is no more, paralleled by Revelation 21:4

The belief that anyone get 'glorified bodies' or becomes immortal before that time, is false and will never happen.

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.


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[keras]

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

One little word is missing, between afterward and they - all.
Do you actually think EVERY dead Christian from when Jesus commenced His ministry, will be resurrected? Before they stand in Judgment? Revelation 20:11-15

No, that will not happen and Revelation 20:4, undeniably states that ONLY the martyrs killed during the final 3 1/2 years of this age, will be brought back to life.

 

[BABerean2]

Do you actually think EVERY dead Christian from when Jesus commenced His ministry, will be resurrected? Before they stand in Judgment? Revelation 20:11-15

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


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[keras]

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. .

Explain to me then, how is it that the Seven Vials, [Bowls] come next?
Revelation 15,16,17 and 18
I see Revelation 11:15-18 as a statement of fact, a declaration of Jesus' Kingship and the final Judgment to come after the Millennium, but not to actually happen then.

 

[BABerean2]

Explain to me then, how is it that the Seven Vials, [Bowls] come next?
Revelation 15,16,17 and 18
I see Revelation 11:15-18 as a statement of fact, a declaration of Jesus' Kingship and the final Judgment to come after the Millennium, but not to actually happen then.

Multiple Second Coming Visions in Revelation:


Christ returns at the end of Revelation chapter 6, with signs in the sun, moon, and stars, as are found in the Olivet Discourse.
Those at the end of the chapter are hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
Why would they be hiding if Christ is not present?
The "kings", "captains", "might men", "free", and "bond" are also found in chapter 19 at the return of Christ.


He returns at the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11:15-18.


The beginning of chapter 12 is a history lesson containing the fall of Satan, and the birth and death of Christ, who is the seed promised to crush the head of Satan in Genesis 3:15.


The Second Coming is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is related to the parable of the wheat and tares in Matthew chapter 13.


He comes as a thief at Armageddon, and we find the greatest earthquake in history in chapter 16. This occurs when the 7th angel pours out his vial. How powerful is an earthquake which moves islands and destroys the mountains? What is happening to the planet?


He comes on a horse in chapter 19.


He comes with the fire, and the judgment of the dead at the end of chapter 20, which agrees with what Paul said in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1.
(The time of the judgment of the dead is also found in Revelation 11:18.)
There are no mortals left alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46.
Revelation 9:14 proves some of the angels have already been bound in some manner.
Because the two witnesses were bodily resurrected from the dead in Revelation 11, the "first resurrection" at the beginning of Revelation 20 is not the first bodily resurrection in the book.


The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

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[keras]

The only way to properly interpret the book is through the principle of "Recapitulation".

I totally disagree with this idea. It just doesn't suit the narrative and it involves much shuffling, taking away and adding to Revelation. Not advisable!

 

[BABerean2]

I totally disagree with this idea. It just doesn't suit the narrative and it involves much shuffling, taking away and adding to Revelation. Not advisable!

Because Christ comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also comes in chapter 19, there is no other honest choice.

.

 

[keras]

Because Christ comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also comes in chapter 19, there is no other honest choice. .

It will be the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal, where He 'comes as a thief.
Proved by 1 Thess 5:2-3 and Matthew 24:37-44, also several OT prophesies describing this sudden and shocking disaster.

Revelation 16:15 is in [parenthesis] in my Bible. It is just an admonition for us today to be aware of forthcoming worldwide disaster of the Lord's Day of wrath.
However; the armies of the Anti-Christ will be surprised, then dead. Revelation 16:16-21

I have posted the three main prophesies about the Return of Jesus. That event will not be a worldwide disaster!

 

[Timtofly]

I have studied the Bible version, as opposed to what you are claiming.


The Resurrection of the Dead

1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Co 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1Co 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Co 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
1Co 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
1Co 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1Co 15:32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
1Co 15:33 Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.
1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

The Resurrection Body

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
1Co 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
Mystery and Victory
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

So explain the difference, because obviously you do not see Paul's physical incorruptible body as a resurrection body.

 

[Timtofly]

Because Christ comes as a thief at Armageddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also comes in chapter 19, there is no other honest choice.

Chapter 16 and 19 are the same battle of Armageddon event. It is not a thief in the night moment. That happened at the 6th Seal when those same men (all humanity still standing both times) asked who can save us? Guess what? Being prepared for the thief in the night moment is the only thing that can save any one. How many humans were saved at the battle of Armageddon?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I totally disagree with this idea. It just doesn't suit the narrative and it involves much shuffling, taking away and adding to Revelation. Not advisable!

You are the one taking away from what John said about the seventh trumpet.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The following things occur at the sounding of the seventh trumpet:

• The mystery of God is finished
• The kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ
• God's final wrath
• The judgment of the dead
• Rewards given to God's prophets and the rest of His people
• God destroys those who destroy the earth

What else can follow all of that? Jesus is described as destroying His enemies in Rev 16:12-16 and Rev 19:11-21 (and Rev 20:9, IMO). The judgment of the dead clearly is referenced in Revelation 20:11-15 and the rewards for believers are described in Revelation 21:1-4. There is nothing else left to occur after the seventh trumpet sounds and the things described as happening at the seventh trumpet occur.

The seventh trumpet is obviously the last of the seven trumpets. Paul said that at the last trumpet is when the dead in Christ will be raised, all will be "changed" and death will be swallowed up in victory, which occurs at the second coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:22-26).

The seventh trumpet signals the time when "the mystery of God is finished". Clearly, the seventh trumpet signals the end of the age Jesus talked about in Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 24-25 (Mark 13, Luke 21), which will be the end of this temporal age (Luke 20:34-36). How can anything else be fulfilled after the mystery of God is finished?

All of this shows that the vials do not chronologically follow the seventh trumpet as you believe. That is impossible because of what it says occurs at the seventh trumpet, which you are not accepting. You stubbornly insist that the events related to the seven seals all happen first, and then the events related to the seven trumpets happen after that, and the events related to the seven vials happen after that.

But that can't be the case because if it was then it couldn't be said that at the seventh trumpet "the mystery of God is finished" and that it's the time of the dead being judged and rewards for the saints and so on.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It will be the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal, where He 'comes as a thief.
Proved by 1 Thess 5:2-3 and Matthew 24:37-44, also several OT prophesies describing this sudden and shocking disaster.

Revelation 16:15 is in [parenthesis] in my Bible. It is just an admonition for us today to be aware of forthcoming worldwide disaster of the Lord's Day of wrath.
However; the armies of the Anti-Christ will be surprised, then dead. Revelation 16:16-21

I have posted the three main prophesies about the Return of Jesus. That event will not be a worldwide disaster!

I guess Peter didn't get the memo since he taught that the heavens and the earth will be burned up when Jesus returns at His coming as a thief in the night. I'd say that qualifies as a worldwide disaster.

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[keras]

I guess Peter didn't get the memo since he taught that the heavens and the earth will be burned up when Jesus returns at His coming as a thief in the night. I'd say that qualifies as a worldwide disaster.

Peter does NOT say the fire punishment comes at Jesus return, he only says that scoffers will deny all that is prophesied to happen before that Day.

It is illogical and unscriptural to say Jesus will destroy anything other than the armies at Armageddon, when He Returns in glory to reign for the next 1000 years.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Peter does NOT say the fire punishment comes at Jesus return, he only says that scoffers will deny all that is prophesied to happen before that Day.

No, it says they deny "His coming" itself. Why you don't equate "His coming" with His return, I'll never understand.

It is illogical and unscriptural to say Jesus will destroy anything other than the armies at Armageddon, when He Returns in glory to reign for the next 1000 years.

That is not true.

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Notice how John expands the destruction to not just include the armies, but "all people, free and slave, great and small" here. This shows that Armageddon is a figurative reference that has a global scope just like "Sodom and Egypt" in Rev 11:8, "Babylon" in Rev 16:19 and other verses, and "Gog and Magog" in Rev 20:8.

 

[BABerean2]

Chapter 16 and 19 are the same battle of Armageddon event. It is not a thief in the night moment.

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.


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[BABerean2]

I have posted the three main prophesies about the Return of Jesus. That event will not be a worldwide disaster!

See Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.


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[keras]

See Matthew 25:31-46, and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and 2 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Peter 3:10-13.

None of those prophesies say Jesus will destroy the world at His Return.
Such a belief is illogical and is never said to happen. Only after the Millennium, will the New heavens and earth; come.

No, it says they deny "His coming" itself. Why you don't equate "His coming" with His return, I'll never understand.

Your difficulty is because several of the prophesies about the Lord's terrible Day of fiery wrath, are translated as 'coming'. Like Isaiah 66:15
But when all the over 100 prophesies about the sudden and shocking Day, are considered, it can be seen that He does not Return then. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, and Amos 1 plainly states: I will send fire...

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

When Jesus Returns, it is to Jerusalem. Zechariah 14:3
He then wipes out the armies gathered at Armageddon, only all of those who are motivated to travel to that place. Revelation 16:14
Their corpses will lie there, verse 16.

Then 'Babylon' will be punished; Revelation 16:19-21, and all the faithful Christians will be transported to the holy Land, as Matthew 24:30-31 says.

 

[Timtofly]

You are the one taking away from what John said about the seventh trumpet.

John 10:7 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

The following things occur at the sounding of the seventh trumpet:

• The mystery of God is finished
• The kingdoms of the world become the kingdoms of God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ
• God's final wrath
• The judgment of the dead
• Rewards given to God's prophets and the rest of His people
• God destroys those who destroy the earth

What else can follow all of that? Jesus is described as destroying His enemies in Rev 16:12-16 and Rev 19:11-21 (and Rev 20:9, IMO). The judgment of the dead clearly is referenced in Revelation 20:11-15 and the rewards for believers are described in Revelation 21:1-4. There is nothing else left to occur after the seventh trumpet sounds and the things described as happening at the seventh trumpet occur.

The seventh trumpet is obviously the last of the seven trumpets. Paul said that at the last trumpet is when the dead in Christ will be raised, all will be "changed" and death will be swallowed up in victory, which occurs at the second coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:22-26).

The seventh trumpet signals the time when "the mystery of God is finished". Clearly, the seventh trumpet signals the end of the age Jesus talked about in Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50 and Matthew 24-25 (Mark 13, Luke 21), which will be the end of this temporal age (Luke 20:34-36). How can anything else be fulfilled after the mystery of God is finished?

All of this shows that the vials do not chronologically follow the seventh trumpet as you believe. That is impossible because of what it says occurs at the seventh trumpet, which you are not accepting. You stubbornly insist that the events related to the seven seals all happen first, and then the events related to the seven trumpets happen after that, and the events related to the seven vials happen after that.

But that can't be the case because if it was then it couldn't be said that at the seventh trumpet "the mystery of God is finished" and that it's the time of the dead being judged and rewards for the saints and so on.

John 10:7

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

Interesting oops.

His sheep sealed by the angels (the 144k) contrary to popular opinion are not the church.

The separation of the sheep and goats, wheat and tares do not violate those spiritually dead given their eternal reward. Jesus is not concerned about the dead in sheol. There is no bodily resurrection mentioned. Why is it ironic, that no one acknowledges a (first) bodily resurrection for any one in Christ, but they have to resurrect those in sheol way before the GWT?

The Second Coming is about living humans who are dead spiritually. That is the symbolism and spiritual interpretation. The sheep are given eternal life in a (first) incorruptible bodily resurrection in Revelation 20:4. The goats are placed in eternal damnation, Death, which will be emptied into the lake of fire 1000 years after the resurrection of the sheep. Both are eternal and both involve this 1000 years that is the elephant in the room. The same with the wheat and tares. This deals with the physical covenants made with humanity from Noah to the ten lost tribes. These covenants are separate from the Atonement Covenant made in Genesis 3.

The 7th Trumpet is the end of the hidden plan of Adam's 6000 years. It also signals the end of temporal authority of humans over the earth as spelled out in the covenant given to Noah. It is not that the Nations are brought to an end, but more they are no longer bound by sin and a sin nature. People are so focused on trying to figure out symbolism based on OT prophets, that no one seems to grasp the end of sin started in the Garden. Ending the world next year is getting way ahead of the 7th Trumpet and God's hidden plan which seems obviously still hidden to some, as the significance of the next 1000 years, will remain hidden to those who do not take Revelation 20 as written. I said next year to show how saying the world ends immediately sounds. The Second Coming could happen any second, including the tribulation of the 4th Seal. This seal is a rapid event, and still future. Because Death is the point of eternal damnation.

I think some believe some humans are born who were never placed in the Lamb's book of life. They have to believe some humans walking around today are not, nor ever was covered by the Atonement. I don't accept that. I still see them as being removed in exchange for taking the mark. God removes them from the redeemed and places them into the list of eternal damned. Death is the place of eternal damnation. Since the Second Coming is this time of eternal damnation, it makes sense that the 4th, 5th, and 6th Seals go hand in hand as back to back events. That is why there is a noted difference between sheol and Death. Can you prove those in sheol at the GWT have no say in their names being removed? Those in Death do not have any say, because the goats and tares are sent there by God’s choice, not their own.

Here is why. Both sheep and wheat, along with the goats and tares, did not take advantage of the Atonement. It may have been by choice or by never hearing the Gospel as the seed sown on any heart where it cannot take root. The parable of the seed sown in different hearts is proof that rejection is not the same in every single person. This is not about calvinism or armenianism the opposite extremes of what Atonement is. This is about how God sees each heart and judges us individually. One should not be surprised if one finds out they were not a part of the church. Perhaps seeking God along with all those crying out how can we escape God's wrath, one will remember how judgmental sin itself can be? The wheat harvest has been left sealed up in the 7 Thunders, and probably for a very great reason. People are pretty dogmatic against God handing out second chances. That is true concerning the church and redeemed. Once the church is completed in the 5th and 6th Seals, that is it. The bride is complete. There is still the friends of the groom. Those "lost" sheep and wheat. Not sure how some one set on God immediately destroying everything, can be as longsuffering as God. The 1000 years following the Second Coming is a perfect example of God's longsuffering. God still has a plan to populate the earth prior to the NHNE. There is still that tiny detail of people living on the new earth. The church covers the New Jerusalem. Does no one see the issue with the population of the NE? It may be true that God can turn stones into necessary people, but John makes more sense in Revelation 20.

One side is wrong in seeing sinners just slide into the NE. The other side is wrong in dismissing 1000 years of bodily resurrected humanity free from sin and a sin nature to populate the earth. The 7th Trumpet ends at the end of the battle of Armageddon. That is the end of Adam's descendants. Resurrection changes Adam's flesh to God's own permanent God made bodies. Not exactly turning stones into flesh, but hearts of stone, that is a Sovereign God. But why wait 1000 years and then allow a final rebellion? Rebellion is giving even those under God's iron rule the free will to reject God, just like all humanity has had that choice. Why not just call it a 6000 year creation, instead of anything perfect as implied in Scripture? Because if God does not let perfection abound, are we not just painting a hopeful God in theory, but not reality? Do we carry Faith to such an extreme that Faith can never be a realization in current reality?

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

The church is gathered into Paradise.

Are you attempting to prove the church is being assembled to fight against Christ in the battle of Armageddon?

If perchance he is gathering them in the skies above Armageddon, is John leaving out a pertinent detail? Do you think God is not gathering His enemies? Revelation 16:12-16


12 The sixth one poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water dried up, in order to prepare the way for the kings from the east.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits that looked like frogs; they came from the mouth of the dragon, from the mouth of the beast and from the mouth of the false prophet.
14 They are miracle-working demonic spirits which go out to the kings of the whole inhabited world to assemble them for the War of the Great Day of Adonai-Tzva’ot.
15 (“Look! I am coming like a thief! How blessed are those who stay alert and keep their clothes clean, so that they won’t be walking naked and be publicly put to shame!”)
16 And they gathered the kings to the place which in Hebrew is called Har Megiddo.

So how did God assemble the troops?

 

[BABerean2]

Only after the Millennium, will the New heavens and earth; come.

Since the Second Coming of Christ is at the end of the Millennium based on what Paul said, your statement above is actually correct.

The fire comes at the end of Revelation 20, as found in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.

The judgment of the dead occurs at the end of Revelation 20, as found in 2 Timothy 4:1.

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