I'm starting to lean towards post trib

[ImAllLikeOkWaitWat]

I used to be pre trib but it seems most people are pre-trib because that makes them feel the best. Perhaps thats why Jesus always said he is coming soon. It gives you a sense of urgency that makes you behave the best and happier as well. I also don't think pretrib/rapture is how God operates. It doesn't seem to me like it's God's style to take billions of people out from the earth. He likes to work in secret and it would be no secret if that happened.

 

[Albion]

I'd like to ask you how your life would be changed if somehow you were to find out that one of these--pretrib, post trib, amill, postmill, premill, or some other version, were to be proven absolutely to be "the one." (?)

 

[Friedrich Rubinstein]

That's very true. I hear a lot of pre-trib followers say "Jesus would never want his bride to suffer", while they completely ignore the suffering of the church in the past 2000 years - as if the Christians of the past 2000 years are not the bride.

This might help you to understand why a pre-trib rapture is not biblical

 

[SeventyOne]

That's very true. I hear a lot of pre-trib followers say "Jesus would never want his bride to suffer", while they completely ignore the suffering of the church in the past 2000 years - as if the Christians of the past 2000 years are not the bride.

This might help you to understand why a pre-trib rapture is not biblical

Probably better stated that Jesus is not a wife-beater. The Trib is when the Lord's wrath is unleashed on this planet. It's a completely different paradigm than the last 2,000 years. When post-tribbers rely on saying the Church has always had tribulation, you are failing to identify the source of that trouble.

 

[Bobber]

I used to be pre trib but it seems most people are pre-trib because that makes them feel the best.

It is concerning when I've read the reasoning of some Pre-Trib people which goes like this. If we're to face persecution or difficult days ahead how can that be a Blessed Hope? It neglects the following truth....Christians have been persecuted for years in other countries. Those people haven't been worthy to have the Blessed Hope then? That they somehow failed? So you know that can't be a right way of thinking.

 

[Steve_K]

Pre-wrath is the most cogent, Biblically sound doctrine on this subject imo...

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCdT1lXlbAsCeCgxnQU2IIRw/videos

 

[SeventyOne]

I used to be pre trib but it seems most people are pre-trib because that makes them feel the best. Perhaps thats why Jesus always said he is coming soon. It gives you a sense of urgency that makes you behave the best and happier as well. I also don't think pretrib/rapture is how God operates. It doesn't seem to me like it's God's style to take billions of people out from the earth. He likes to work in secret and it would be no secret if that happened.

Paul gave us three time-references for the gathering of the Lord's people in 1 Corinthians 15:22-24. Here he states there is a resurrection of the saints, but each in a particular order, after which Christ will reign. The first he tells us was at the time of the Resurrection, the time of the First Fruits. This resurrection of some of the saints is outlined in Matthew 27:52-53. The second time he gives us is the time of the coming he describes starting in verse 50. That one comes prior to the third order, which he simply describes as 'the end'. This last one is where we see the resurrection of both the OT saints, who were promised to be raised on the 'last day' as well as the tribulation saints in Revelation 20:4-5.

Concerning the one in the middle, we can see details of its timing in both Revelation 12:5 and Isaiah 26:19-21. In one instance, it is prior to the wrath of satan who was poised to finally devour the Church, and the other at a time prior to the Lord even commencing His own wrath on the earth.

Don't let any of these people steal this truth and hope from you. As for the billions removed, I personally don't think it would reach anywhere near that number. Not even close.

 

[eye_spy_the_cia]

Probably better stated that Jesus is not a wife-beater. The Trib is when the Lord's wrath is unleashed on this planet. It's a completely different paradigm than the last 2,000 years. When post-tribbers rely on saying the Church has always had tribulation, you are failing to identify the source of that trouble.

The False Prophet`s Power Base.

can you link source for where rabbis are saying that the "Messiah has already returned" please

 

[Steve_K]

It is concerning when I've read the reasoning of some Pre-Trib people which goes like this. If we're to face persecution or difficult days ahead how can that be a Blessed Hope? It neglects the following truth....Christians have been persecuted for years in other countries. Those people haven't been worthy to have the Blessed Hope then? That they somehow failed? So you know that can't be a right way of thinking.

+1

We will face Satan and man's evil wrath (as Christians/the Church have throughout the ages), but we will escape God's wrath sometime during the latter 3.5 yrs. Christians, esp in the West, who believe they will be miraculously raptured before facing severe trials and persecutions is pure fantasy imo and I suspect many pre-tribbers will be deceived into taking the mark.

 

[Steve_K]

I'd like to ask you how your life would be changed if somehow you were to find out that one of these--pretrib, post trib, amill, postmill, premill, or some other version, were to be proven absolutely to be "the one." (?)

Many 'Christians' I personally know seem to have a 'devil may care' attitude and think they're 'special' and will miraculously escape the 70th week trials and tribulations because God will rapture them. When world-shaking calamitous events and horrors befall them, they'll be in a state of utter shock, terror, disillusionment, and even anger towards God and may fall away to apostasy. This is why it's important to be prepared - spiritually and mentally - for the worst.

 

[Rachel20]

It doesn't seem to me like it's God's style ...

Seems his style in Isaiah 26:19-21

 

[SeventyOne]

The False Prophet`s Power Base.

can you link source for where rabbis are saying that the "Messiah has already returned" please

Rabbi Kanievsky Announces: "The Messiah is Here Among Us" - Israel365 News | Latest News. Biblical Perspective.

There are other sources stating this guy also claims that he and others are already holding meetings with their 'messiah'.

This one just simply declared that this new year, 9/18/20, will be the last one Israel has without their messiah. he even states that the messiah could even be revealed on that date. That also tells me he's aware of some behind the scenes movement.

Prominent Rabbi Breaks Silence: 'Messiah Coming this Year!' -

 

[Bobber]

Probably better stated that Jesus is not a wife-beater. The Trib is when the Lord's wrath is unleashed on this planet. It's a completely different paradigm than the last 2,000 years. When post-tribbers rely on saying the Church has always had tribulation, you are failing to identify the source of that trouble.

As for me I tend to think that tribulation and wrath are two separate things. They are two different greek words as well.

thlipsis is tribulaton

orgé: is wrath

Creating doctrines many times if like lining up box cars of a train. Once one has joined different boxes together and then proclaimed it for years it's almost impossible for some to have a fresh look at their assumptions and test them out. Two boxes or trains of thought that should never have been connected together was that Daniel's 70th week (the 7 year period) is equivalent to the tribulation, THUS the 7 year tribulation and we've heard it over and over and over again with nobody stepping back to question just what again is the justification for making this claim.

 

[Timtofly]

+1

We will face Satan and man's evil wrath (as Christians/the Church have throughout the ages), but we will escape God's wrath sometime during the latter 3.5 yrs. Christians, esp in the West, who believe they will be miraculously raptured before facing severe trials and persecutions is pure fantasy imo and I suspect many pre-tribbers will be deceived into taking the mark.

If they leave before the period of Satan's 3.5 years, how will they receive the mark?

It will be those who endure, that may not get their head chopped off soon enough. Post trib makes no sense, because all will be dead. If you are not dead, you have the mark. No way around it.

 

[keras]

If they leave before the period of Satan's 3.5 years, how will they receive the mark?

It will be those who endure, that may not get their head chopped off soon enough. Post trib makes no sense, because all will be dead. If you are not dead, you have the mark. No way around it.

You completely fail to read or understand Revelation 12:6-17.
Jesus does not Return to a dead world. He gathers those who remain, 1 Thess 4:17, to Him, Matthew 24:30-31 and takes His rightful place as King over the world. A world of living people, without Satan to mess it up.

THUS the 7 year tribulation and we've heard it over and over and over again with nobody stepping back to question just what again is the justification for making this claim.

There is no 7 year Great Tribulation, but there is a 3 1/2 year one. As is described in Revelation from Ch 8 to 18.
The 7 years is the final 70th 'week' of Daniel 9:27 and the first half will be a time of peace.

 

[BABerean2]

I used to be pre trib but it seems most people are pre-trib because that makes them feel the best. Perhaps thats why Jesus always said he is coming soon. It gives you a sense of urgency that makes you behave the best and happier as well. I also don't think pretrib/rapture is how God operates. It doesn't seem to me like it's God's style to take billions of people out from the earth. He likes to work in secret and it would be no secret if that happened.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, modern Dispensational Theology falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[BobRyan]

I used to be pre trib but it seems most people are pre-trib because that makes them feel the best. Perhaps thats why Jesus always said he is coming soon. It gives you a sense of urgency that makes you behave the best and happier as well. I also don't think pretrib/rapture is how God operates. It doesn't seem to me like it's God's style to take billions of people out from the earth. He likes to work in secret and it would be no secret if that happened.

You are on the right track.

WE already have 1260 years of dark ages persecution where over 50 million christians were slain. And that is not even counting the millions killed in the 1900's.

Read Matt 24 and find that "Immediately AFTER the tribulation" is when the Son of man appears and sends forth His angels to gather his elect.

It is a bit too late to claim that Christians have seen no tribulation.

 

[BobRyan]

If they leave before the period of Satan's 3.5 years, how will they receive the mark?

It will be those who endure, that may not get their head chopped off soon enough. Post trib makes no sense, because all will be dead. If you are not dead, you have the mark. No way around it.

Rev 13 says that the beast "17 provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name."

-- that means people are there who are not worshiping the beast nor do they have the mark - and they are being prevented from buying or selling. Which means the beast does not have enough access to them to behead them - so he makes it impossible for them to buy or sell.

Rev 14 contrasts the ones obeying the beast vs those who obey God. It is a warning not to obey the beast.
If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.” 12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Matt 24 - does not say that "before the tribulation he will gather his elect" but rather "after the tribulation".

Rev 7
14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb

 

[BobRyan]

I'd like to ask you how your life would be changed if somehow you were to find out that one of these--pretrib, post trib, amill, postmill, premill, or some other version, were to be proven absolutely to be "the one." (?)

It would not change a bit if the popular forms of those scenarios were the right one - because you have no control over them and nothing you do would change your fate assuming you choose to remain a Christian as you are today and do not change a thing regarding your acceptance of Christ and following His Word.

There would have to be something like a "Noah scenario" where the person who lived before Noah finds out "he has to get in the boat" after Noah comes along and preaches about the flood and the boat-solution God has put in place.

All the scenarios you refer to - are more like "God will snatch up the good guys before the flood comes" so then nothing really for the good guys to do - and not knowing about it does not harm them. Even in the case that the popular form of post-trib is true - because in that form the good guys have no control over the tribulation and doing the same thing that they are doing now - is all they need to keep doing.

Sort of like a born-again Christian not knowing about the pandemic in 2019 - then getting hit with it in 2020. All you need to do is keeping being a Christian. No change needed. And no salvation-risk to not knowing in 2019 that 2020 had the pandemic - they would see it .. when they got here.

 

[Albion]

It would not change a bit if the popular forms of those scenarios were the right one - because you have no control over them and nothing you do would change your fate assuming you choose to remain a Christian as you are today and do not change a thing regarding your acceptance of Christ and following His Word.

That's what I was thinking, and yet Christians worry and argue about this issue as ardently as they do over some of the more critical ones. Or so it seems from here.