I'm starting to change my mind about the End Times (help!)

[Saucy]

That would be Paul's Man of Sin/Son of Perdition. A completely separate and distinct entity from John's 'antichrist". There is not even one scripture that teaches these two Biblical personalities are the same entity. Not even one.



So Peter could also be Paul then? Matthew could be Luke? James could be John?

We ought not place speculation above what scripture actually teaches. I hope we can agree on that.

Now, if you know of any scripture that teaches Pauls MoS and John's antichrist are the same entity, I'm all eyes...



Wow.... again, the scripture you are referring to SAYS nothing of the sort. You appear to be adding things to that scripture based on your opinion/speculation.

Here it is:
2 Thessalonians 3-8
3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

I see you make the additional, extra biblical assumption that the "he who now restrains" is the Holy Spirit, but you are absolutely incorrect to claim "the Bible SAYS" it. Scripture does not elaborate on who/what the restrainer is. I think it’s dangerous to add our assumptions to what scripture does not teach, Especially if you’re going to add “thus says the lord” at the end of your speculation.

Also, you say the Bible SAYS "he WILL BE suppressed". Notice that the scripture SAYS he was "already at work" and was being "now restrained" - this was not future to Paul and the Thessalonians. It is clear from the passage itself that Paul is referencing an event taking place in his day, as an already alive, fully grown MAN, Was at that time being restrained from his takeover of the then standing temple.

I think you might benefit from taking a step back and really looking at what the actual scriptures SAY instead of merely parroting what you've been taught they say.



Yes. They are either Converts themselves or descendants of Gentile Converts to the Post Christian, man made religion of the Talmud. They have no relationship to the pre desolation Hebrews. Not genetically, not politically and not religiously.



You and I are in 100% agreement on that point.

Let me be clear and say that none of this is my "opinion" or "speculation." This is what I've been taught the last 20 years when I first became a Christian at 19. In my Christian bubble, I had no idea these other teachings existed and I'm now questioning what I was taught before.

The reason why I am questioning is that it seems obvious that the disciples expected the time of the end to happen soon and in their lifetime and Nero and others fit the bill as this 'antichrist' figure. But I guess my biggest question now is where we are on that tribulation timeline if everything happened 2,000 years ago? Not all of Revelation has been fulfilled yet, which tells me the end times weren't in 70 AD, but still to come. (I guess that part is my speculation, but no one really knows, not even Christ knew.)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Let me be clear and say that none of this is my "opinion" or "speculation." This is what I've been taught the last 20 years when I first became a Christian at 19. In my Christian bubble, I had no idea these other teachings existed and I'm now questioning what I was taught before.

The reason why I am questioning is that it seems obvious that the disciples expected the time of the end to happen soon and in their lifetime and Nero and others fit the bill as this 'antichrist' figure. But I guess my biggest question now is where we are on that tribulation timeline if everything happened 2,000 years ago? Not all of Revelation has been fulfilled yet, which tells me the end times weren't in 70 AD, but still to come. (I guess that part is my speculation, but no one really knows, not even Christ knew.)

It sounds like you're at a reasonable place with all of this, Saucy. I think the best way is to just keep Eschatology open for any ongoing study from different perspectives that you feel inclined to do. There's a lot out there to read or hear and none of this is going to be easily wrangled into a systematic theology. We all wish it could be, but it doesn't seem the Lord wanted it to quite be seen in that way.

 

[wonderkins]

I'm here asking questions based upon what I was taught (and now questioning what I was taught). Clearly I don't believe I have all the answers. If you do know what was taught, please share it.

Hey saucy, sorry if I helped send your thread in a direction you weren't intending. Eschatology is a touchy subject. And any information you get will seem like a firehose. Not to mention that when you start telling preterist ideas to Christians who have never heard of it, you're going to get strange looks and very defensive questions that seem impossible to answer. However, Bible questions you may have had as a premillenialist will start being answered by preterism. Every time I heard a premillenial sermon on end times, I was left with more questions and confusion than before the sermon.

I don't know where you are in your study of this subject, but I would recommend starting from the three verses I mentioned on the first page.

Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:34

Read those and figure out who Jesus was speaking to, or about. Was he talking about those people standing in front of him, or a distant future group? I sometimes wish I had started there in my research. Once I settled on who it was, everything else started to fall in place.

 

[Saucy]

Hey saucy, sorry if I helped send your thread in a direction you weren't intending. Eschatology is a touchy subject. And any information you get will seem like a firehose. Not to mention that when you start telling preterist ideas to Christians who have never heard of it, you're going to get strange looks and very defensive questions that seem impossible to answer. However, Bible questions you may have had as a premillenialist will start being answered by preterism. Every time I heard a premillenial sermon on end times, I was left with more questions and confusion than before the sermon.

I don't know where you are in your study of this subject, but I would recommend starting from the three verses I mentioned on the first page.

Matthew 10:23, 16:28, 24:34

Read those and figure out who Jesus was speaking to, or about. Was he talking about those people standing in front of him, or a distant future group? I sometimes wish I had started there in my research. Once I settled on who it was, everything else started to fall in place.

This makes a lot of sense. We tend to see scripture through our own eyes and for our own time. Even though the morality of God doesn't change, we must always ask who God is speaking to and why. Surely, His teachings about the end times could have been specifically for the Jews or new converts who would face the temple destruction. But He was asked about the end times, so Jesus could very well have been telling them about a distant event they would not be alive for. It is hard to tell.

All I know is that we are still here and Christ has not returned, so there are still parts of the bible left unfulfilled.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I'm here asking questions based upon what I was taught (and now questioning what I was taught). Clearly I don't believe I have all the answers. If you do know what was taught, please share it.

What begins to change you is when you see how other believers have believed.
All the systems attempt to explain the 66 books.
A poster like Keras posts his idea of one system. He thinks his biblical case is solid, but he does not realize that is one or two of his ideas are discredited his system crumbles.
The bible uses symbolic language.
The symbols have a literal meaning, used among other books of the bible.
The bible often interprets itself.

The name Israel has 5 meanings in scripture,not one.

Is the thousand years, literal, or symbolic for a complete age of time.?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I'm here asking questions based upon what I was taught (and now questioning what I was taught). Clearly I don't believe I have all the answers. If you do know what was taught, please share it.

Look here;
Post Millennialism safe house
Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by JM, Aug 31, 2020.

 

[keras]

What I post is the story as the Bible prophets tell it. If they prophecy something that can be literally fulfilled, then it will be.
The thousand years as mentioned six times in Revelation. literally means a thousand orbits of the earth around the sun.
END TIMES – SOME F.A.Q’s -

Who are the Lord’s People ? - To be gathered into the Promised Land, soon after the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-31

This is a difficult question and really only God knows. It does seem clear, from what the Bible tells us, that they are mostly actual descendants of Jacob. all the 12 tribes.
But, even in ancient days, aliens joined and were accepted as Israelites:

Isaiah 56:8 Yet others I will gather, to those already gathered in the Land.

John 11:52 Jesus will die, not for the Jews alone but in order to gather together the scattered children of God. Revelation 5:9-10…people from every tribe, nation and language.

In Galatians 3:26-29. Paul says that all true believers in Jesus Christ are no longer aliens and are deemed by faith, to be children of Abraham. Isaiah 51:1-5, Isaiah 56:1-8

The New Testament brings a new day – not only would the Israelites be a part of God’s people but in this new day the Gentiles could be grafted into this people line. Therefore, all true believers in Jesus are now My People: the Israel of God, the Overcomers for Him.


You will know My people by their righteous lives.

John 15:16 You did not choose Me- I chose you. I appointed you to go on and bear fruit, fruit that will last.

Luke 6:44 Each tree is known by its fruit, you don’t get figs or grapes from brambles or thistles.

Matthew 12:33-35 You can tell a tree by its fruit.

Matthew 7:19 A tree that does not yield sound fruit is cut down and thrown on the fire

Isaiah 3:10 Happy are the righteous, all will be well with them. They will enjoy the fruits of their deeds.

Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is the tree of life.


When will these end time events happen?

It is very scary, but it seems likely that the prophecies that speak clearly of the Lords Day of vengeance will be fulfilled in the near future. I agree with the idea that the Great Tribulation will finish with the Return of Jesus.

An interesting verse in Luke 13:32 Jesus says that He will work for 2 days then will attain His reward on the third. As a day is like 1000 years to the Lord in heaven, then His reward, His Millennial reign will start exactly 2000 years after the start of His ministry, in 29/30 AD. And again in Hosea 6:2 After 2 days, He will revive us. On the 3rd day we will live in His presence; during Jesus’ Millennium reign.

So, working back, 2023 may be the start of the 7 year Tribulation. We can only guess how much time is needed for the Gathering and Judgement of His people and their settlement in the Land.

But, judgement may happen at any time, this crazy situation between Israel and the Muslims has gone on so long, just cannot stay like this forever. Watch Iran, their Shi-ite Muslim leaders are doing all they can to prepare the weapons to destroy Israel. This attack will be their doom. Deuteronomy 32:34-35, Jeremiah 49:35-36


How will His people gather in the Land ?

Jeremiah 30:10 Israel, do not despair, I shall bring you back safe from afar.

Ezekiel 34:11-12 Now I shall take a thought for My sheep and search for them. As a shepherd, I shall find and rescue my sheep, no matter where they were scattered, on the Day of darkness. [the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster]

Isaiah 49:22 The Lord says, I shall beckon to the nations, hoist My signal to the peoples and they will bring your sons in their arms and your daughters on their shoulders.

Jeremiah 16:15-17 I will bring the Israelites back to the Land that I gave to their forefathers. I shall send for many fishermen and they will fish for them. After that, I shall send for many hunters and they will hunt them from every place. For My eyes are on all their ways, I am watching them and I see any wrongdoing.

Isaiah 60:8-9 Who are these, that sail along like clouds, that fly like doves to their dovecotes? They are vessels assembling from the coasts and islands; they bring your children from far away, their treasure with them. The Holy One of Israel has made you glorious for His honour. Psalms 107

Hosea 2:14 Now I shall woo Israel and lead her into the wilderness, speak words of encouragement to her.

Psalm 68:7 God, when at the head of Your people, You marched through the barren waste – the earth trembled and rain poured down.

Psalm 68:17 There were myriads of Gods chariots when the Lord comes from Sinai.

Zechariah 8:8 My people, brought back to live in Jerusalem.

Zechariah 10:10 I shall lead them into Gilead and Lebanon, until there is no more room.


What will the Lord’s people eat and drink ?

Ezekiel 36:8 You, mountains of Israel will put forth your branches and yield fruit for My people, Israel for their homecoming is near. See, I am now for you, I shall turn to you – the land will be tilled and sown. I shall settle on you many people- the whole House of Israel.

Isaiah 41:17-19 The poor and needy look for water and find none. I, the Lord will provide for their needs. I shall open springs in the hills and pools in the desert.

Ezekiel 34:14-16 There will be rich grazing on the hills of Israel. I shall strengthen the sick and give My flock their proper food.

Micah 7:14….your flocks will graze in Bashan and Gilead as in days gone by. [currently part of Muslim Jordan]

Ezekiel 34:26-27 I will bless you with rain in due season. Trees will bear fruit and the soil its produce.

Psalm 81:16 You will be fed with the best flour and honey.

Joel 2:19 The Lord answered their appeal and said – I shall send you corn, new wine and oil. You will have plenty of food.


Where will My people gather ?

Ezekiel 37:21-22 I am going to take the Israelites from their places of exile among the nations. I shall assemble them on the mountains of Israel.

Amos 3:9 Make this proclamation – Assemble yourselves on the hills of Samaria, look at the tumult seething among her people.

Ezekiel 20:35-36 I shall bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, there I shall confront you and bring you to judgement. Even as I did to your forefathers in the desert of Egypt.


A leader appointed

Jeremiah 30:21 A governor will appear, one of your own number – I will bring him near and let him approach Me. Hosea 1:11 [BEFORE the Return of Jesus]

Prayer and encouragement for His people:

Colossians 1:9-12 We ask God that we may receive from Him, full insight into His will, all wisdom and spiritual understanding, so that our manner of life may be worthy of the Lord and entirely pleasing to Him. We pray that we may bear fruit in active goodness of every kind, and grow in the knowledge of God.

In His glorious might, may He give us ample strength to meet with fortitude and patience whatever comes; and to give joyful thanks to the Father who has made us fit to share in the heritage of Gods people in the Kingdom of light.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I
(or even share good books and resources that can help me.) Thanks!

The Dake's Annotated Reference Bible may be the best reference source as to what dispensationalists refer to as fulfilled and unfulfilled prophesy that may help in rightly dividing the word comprehensively. It was for me anyway, but now, like you, I feel He could return at any moment.

 

[wonderkins]

The thousand years as mentioned six times in Revelation. literally means a thousand orbits of the earth around the sun.

Thousand is mentioned 32 times in Revelation.

G3461 - means ten thousand or indefinite thousands
G5505 - means one thousand
G5507 - means plural of uncertain affinity

G5507 is used in Revelation 20 each time. It's a plural form of the word. It's not one thousand. It's an undetermined amount of time. It does not mean 1000 earthly orbits around the sun.

Anyone can look this up in Strong's and see for themselves.

 

[keras]

G5507 is used in Revelation 20 each time. It's a plural form of the word. It's not one thousand. It's an undetermined amount of time. It does not mean 1000 earthly orbits around the sun.

Trying to create a doctrine around words of uncertain affinity, is a shaky bridge to the truth.
AMillenniumism is wrong from many angles, the main one, which I have proved, is the fact of the 7000 years Plan of God for mankind. We are now at nearly the end of 6000 years since Adam. The final 1000 years will come after Jesus Returns, it denotes the earths Sabbath and is God's reward to Jesus.

 

[wonderkins]

Trying to create a doctrine around words of uncertain affinity, is a shaky bridge to the truth.
AMillenniumism is wrong from many angles, the main one, which I have proved, is the fact of the 7000 years Plan of God for mankind. We are now at nearly the end of 6000 years since Adam. The final 1000 years will come after Jesus Returns, it denotes the earths Sabbath and is God's reward to Jesus.

You don't seem to understand. "Uncertain affinity" means that it's not a determined amount of years. It's not "one thousand" years. It's a great amount of time. You said the word means 1000 orbits around the sun. But it doesn't mean that.

Also, maybe you've done it already, but will you point me to where the Bible speaks of a 7000 year timeline? I would like to read it in the Bible.

 

[keras]

You don't seem to understand. "Uncertain affinity" means that it's not a determined amount of years. It's not "one thousand" years. It's a great amount of time. You said the word means 1000 orbits around the sun. But it doesn't mean that.

Also, maybe you've done it already, but will you point me to where the Bible speaks of a 7000 year timeline? I would like to read it in the Bible.

I have posted God's timeline for mankind here, on the Controversial Christian Theology Forum.
I use 47 Bible verses and the known date of the Babylonian conquest to establish where we are at, which is: 5992 years since Adam.

I view the attempts by those who want to make the thousand years of Revelation 20, into another, much longer period of time, as disingenuous and an avoidance of unpalatable facts.

 

[wonderkins]

I have posted God's timeline for mankind here, on the Controversial Christian Theology Forum.
I use 47 Bible verses and the known date of the Babylonian conquest to establish where we are at, which is: 5992 years since Adam.

I view the attempts by those who want to make the thousand years of Revelation 20, into another, much longer period of time, as disingenuous and an avoidance of unpalatable facts.

Oh I see. You're predicting Jesus return in 2030?

Does it matter what the original Greek means? Where do you get your definition of "thousand" in Revelation 20?

I'm also curious, did you get your theology from the End of the Harvest movie?

 

[Douggg]

Oh I see. You're predicting Jesus return in 2030?

What post in that thread ?

keras's scenario is that a solar flare event will decimate the middleeast - depopulating Israel, the government, and infrastructure.

And in the wake of that, Christians from all around the world will move there, and create a new nation called "Beulah".

That will take a decade or more to do. So, since this is almost 2023, how can the 7 year 70th week begin before then (2033) - with Jesus returning 7 years later ?

 

[keras]

Oh I see. You're predicting Jesus return in 2030?

According to the time periods of the Bible, 2030 +/- a year or two.

Does it matter what the original Greek means? Where do you get your definition of "thousand" in Revelation 20?

From the English Words as stated.
God has not given us His Word to confuse us. An exact thousand years will be the Sabbath rest for the earth and the reward for King Jesus.

I'm also curious, did you get your theology from the End of the Harvest movie?

Do you get your scathing and belittling replies from Homer Simpson?

That will take a decade or more to do. So, since this is almost 2023, how can the 7 year 70th week begin before then (2033) - with Jesus returning 7 years later ?

Good question!
My thought is that the 3 1/2 years of Jesus' earthly ministry could be added as extra to the 2000 year Church Age. Making the Return around 2033/ 2034.

Once the Sixth Seal happens, then things will move fast. Isaiah 29:17 In a very short time the Land will become as Eden....

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I don't know what to believe anymore! Please help me out if you have some answers for me (or even share good books and resources that can help me.) Thanks!

my thoughts for myself...
Learn to love the discomfort of not knowing what to believe. Discomfort can be growth - maybe you're growing (sometimes you're not growing - it's just discomfort - in vain haha)
Just trust God and read stuff that keeps you on your toes. Challenging you - making you think again and again.
Think about whether you believe that, or not. And give reasons to yourself explaining why you believe something or not.
Admit when you don't know. There's no shame in not knowing the answer to everything or not knowing what to believe.

The Left Behind stuff - I just thought was entertainment. It's not really serious though.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

not even Christ knew.)

Based on this statement Christ is not GOD

 

[Douggg]

My thought is that the 3 1/2 years of Jesus' earthly ministry could be added as extra to the 2000 year Church Age. Making the Return around 2033/ 2034.

keras,

One of these two positions of yours (or both) has to be wrong because there is not enough time between now and 2033/2034 to accommodate both positions.

1. Jesus returns around 2033/2034
2. your scenario of solar flare event/depopulation of Israel/Christian migration/nation building

 

[wonderkins]

What post in that thread ?

keras's scenario is that a solar flare event will decimate the middleeast - depopulating Israel, the government, and infrastructure.

And in the wake of that, Christians from all around the world will move there, and create a new nation called "Beulah".

That will take a decade or more to do. So, since this is almost 2023, how can the 7 year 70th week begin before then (2033) - with Jesus returning 7 years later ?

It's a combination of #110 and #112 in this thread. He says there is a 7000 year timeline for mankind. The final 1000 years won't happen till Jesus comes, and right now we are 5992 years in. So according to keras, we only have about 8 years left until Jesus returns.

 

[parousia70]

I stand by what the bible teaches, popery is the little horn

Chapter and verse where the Bible teaches this?