• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

I'm starting to change my mind about the End Times (help!)

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,559
4,834
59
Oregon
✟899,723.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The reason why I am questioning is that it seems obvious that the disciples expected the time of the end to happen soon and in their lifetime

You are right to question what you've been taught in light of scriptures that teach the opposite.

Either the apostles were correct in their expectation or they were wrong. And if they were wrong about something as important as the timing, how can we trust they were right about anything else?

We can't.

If the time of the end arrived in the lifetime of the apostles as they taught, then Futurism is wrong.

If the time of the end did NOT arrive in the lifetime of the apostles as they taught, then Christianity is wrong.

Which are you more comfortable with?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,972
Alabama
✟509,396.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Chapter and verse where the Bible teaches this?

Thank you for allowing me to post this in another thread

Def antichrist
One who opposes Christ and even declare himself as God.

The 10 horns represent the 10 kings or kingdoms into which pagan Rome (the fourth kingdom) was eventually split (Daniel 7:24). (These 10 kingdoms are the same as the 10 toes of the image described in Daniel 2:41-44.) Roving barbarian tribes swept in upon the Roman empire and carved out land niches for their people.
  • "I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things" (Daniel 7:8).
Seven of the 10 tribes developed into the countries of modern Western Europe, while three were uprooted and destroyed (“plucked up”) by a “little horn” that had “eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.”

We must identify this "little horn" power carefully, because God takes more space describing it than the other four kingdoms combined. Why? Because the biblical characteristics identify it as the Antichrist of prophecy and history. There must be no mistake in making this identification.


7. Does the Bible give clear points identifying antichrist?
Yes. God’s Word gives us nine characteristics of the antichrist in Daniel 7 so we can be certain of his identity. And even though some might find these truths painful, we must be honest enough to accept them as His revealed will. Now let’s discover these nine points.

A. The little horn would come “up among them”—that is, from among the 10 horns that were the kingdoms of Western Europe (Daniel 7:8). So it would be a little kingdom somewhere in Western Europe.
B. It would have a man at its head who could speak for it (Daniel 7:8).
C. It would pluck out or uproot three kingdoms (Daniel 7:8).
D. It would be different from the other 10 kingdoms (Daniel 7:24).
E. It would make war with and persecute the saints (Daniel 7:21, 25).
F. It would emerge from the pagan Roman Empire—the fourth kingdom (Daniel 7:7, 8).
G. God’s people (the saints) would “be given into his hand” for “a time and times and half a time” (Daniel 7:25).
H. It would “speak great words against” or blaspheme God (Daniel 7:25 KJV). In Revelation 13:5, the Bible says the same power speaks “great things and blasphemies.”
I. It would “intend to change times and law” (Daniel 7:25).

Don’t forget—all these identification points come directly from the Bible. They are not some human opinion or speculation. Historians could tell you quickly what power is being described, because these points fit only one power—the papacy. But in order to be certain, let us carefully examine all nine points one by one. There must be no room left for doubt.
Does the papacy fit these points
Who Is the Antichrist? | Bible Study Guides | Amazing Facts
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
14,780
2,570
83
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟333,684.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
keras,

One of these two positions of yours (or both) has to be wrong because there is not enough time between now and 2033/2034 to accommodate both positions.

1. Jesus returns around 2033/2034
2. your scenario of solar flare event/depopulation of Israel/Christian migration/nation building
As I quoted in #115, things will move fast after the Sixth Seal world changer.
We will have to get out of our countries, it may become very dangerous, as lawless gangs roam around and food riots happen.
Many Prophesies say how we will rebuild; Isaiah 58:12-14 and will live in prosperity. Ezekiel 36:8-12

All the Land that was promised to Abraham will be cleared and cleansed after this next prophesied event, the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath, the Judgement by fire. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Isaiah 66:15-16 Then, as Isaiah and Ezekiel prophesy; His people will be gathered and ‘passed under the rod’. [The rod of judgement and separation] The righteous then enter the Land, with great joy, singing praises to their Redeemer. Ezekiel 20:34-38, Isaiah 35:1-10, Revelation 7:9

Isaiah 6:11-12 I asked the Lord: How long? Until the Land and cities are desolate and deserted, their houses vacant. He will drive the people far away and all the country will be one vast desolation.

Isaiah 17:9 On the Day of retribution, cities will be deserted, like those of your enemies in ancient times.

When the Christian Israelites, the faithful people of God; Jews and Gentiles, enter the depopulated Land, there are amazing promises to them of how the Land will be fruitful and they will live in the houses left vacant. Christians from every tribe, race, nation and language are the true Israelites of God. Galatians 3:26-29, 6:16

Psalms 69:35 For You will deliver Zion and the cities will be rebuilt. The Lord’s people will settle there and possess it.

Amos 9:14 I shall restore the fortunes of My people, they will rebuild their devastated cities and live in them, plant vineyards and enjoy prosperity in their Land.

Isaiah 54:2-3 Extend your boundaries, for you will spread in all directions and dispossess nations, then repopulate cities now desolate.

Ezekiel 36:10 & 33 I shall settle in the Land all the Israelite people. The towns will again be inhabited and the ruined places rebuilt.

Jeremiah 30:18 I shall restore the fortunes of Jacobs clans. Every city will be restored and houses again rebuilt.

Isaiah 58:12-14 Buildings in ruins will be restored and you will rebuild on ancient foundations. You will be called ‘the restorer of houses’. Ref. REB.

2 Esdras 1:35-37 I shall hand over the homes of your enemies to a people yet to come, a people who will trust Me, though they have not known Me, who will obey My commandments, even though they never saw the prophets. Yet they will keep in mind what the prophets taught of old. I vow that these people will have My favour, they will perceive by the spirit and believe what I have said.
Ref: REB Apocrypha

After the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath, a Day of fire and earthquakes, in a very short time, Isaiah 29:17, the Land will be regenerated and resettled. There is no mention of Jesus being present as yet, in fact they select their own leaders. Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11

They [WE] will rebuild the temple. [Zechariah 6:15] Later, it is them who greet the Returning Jesus with the shout ‘Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!’

 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
14,780
2,570
83
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟333,684.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
If the time of the end arrived in the lifetime of the apostles as they taught, then Futurism is wrong.

If the time of the end did NOT arrive in the lifetime of the apostles as they taught, then Christianity is wrong.
This is all confused nonsense.
The Apostles taught the expectation of the Return of Jesus. They didn't know when, so their teaching was for Christians to be ready at all times.
That is how it has been, how God wanted it to be, why is it an issue for you?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,684
3,541
Non-dispensationalist
✟403,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
As I quoted in #115, things will move fast after the Sixth Seal world changer.
We will have to get out of our countries, it may become very dangerous, as lawless gangs roam around and food riots happen.
keras, now you are having the entire world go into anarchy because of the solar flare event?

Christians in the nations are not going to react to solar flare event that decimates Israel - to thinking we need move there right away and build a nation in that decimated land. No jobs, no hospitals, no water system, no sewage treatment, no schools, no gas stations, no supermarkets, no pharmacies, but let's go there and build an entire country.

keras, you are talking about something that would take 20 years, and be a monumental process, with the nation of Israel, not even big enough to hold all the Christians from around the world. The population of Israel is around 8.6 million.

Are you going to have the relocated Pope, and the Vatican lead the Christian rebuilding of the temple and starting animal sacrifices again? Is it going to be a Catholic country or a non-Catholic country ?

The Jews have been building Israel to what it is now, since 1948 - 70 years. And even then they did not start from scratch.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

John Owen

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2022
497
336
Minneapolis
✟22,060.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I apologize if this is not the right place for this.

I wanted some help with End Times theology. For most of my Christian walk, I've believed in the Left Behind type of theology. The tribulation is ahead of us and will be kicked off by the rapture of the church.

But all of a sudden I've been introduced to preterist theology and I don't know what to believe anymore. Could Daniel and even Revelations have warned about Nero being the fulfillment of being the little horn rising up as the Beast of the Sea? I heard he matches up with 666, he ended temple sacrifice after breaking a treaty with Jerusalem, and so much more.

I always heard that the best would be killed and brought back from the dead, which I just read the beast was Rome and after Nero killed himself, the empire was surely dead, but "came back to life" better than ever after Vespasian came to rule.

This is difficult for me because I have been waiting for the return of the Messiah. Is He not supposed to return after the tribulation? What have we been doing for the last 2,000 years if the tribulation happened so long ago? Was Nero the antichrist?

I don't know what to believe anymore! Please help me out if you have some answers for me (or even share good books and resources that can help me.) Thanks!
Read George Ladd "The Blessed Hope."
https://www.amazon.com/Blessed-Hope-Biblical-Second-Rapture/dp/0802811116
 
Upvote 0

John Owen

Well-Known Member
Sep 23, 2022
497
336
Minneapolis
✟22,060.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I apologize if this is not the right place for this.

I wanted some help with End Times theology. For most of my Christian walk, I've believed in the Left Behind type of theology. The tribulation is ahead of us and will be kicked off by the rapture of the church.

But all of a sudden I've been introduced to preterist theology and I don't know what to believe anymore. Could Daniel and even Revelations have warned about Nero being the fulfillment of being the little horn rising up as the Beast of the Sea? I heard he matches up with 666, he ended temple sacrifice after breaking a treaty with Jerusalem, and so much more.

I always heard that the best would be killed and brought back from the dead, which I just read the beast was Rome and after Nero killed himself, the empire was surely dead, but "came back to life" better than ever after Vespasian came to rule.

This is difficult for me because I have been waiting for the return of the Messiah. Is He not supposed to return after the tribulation? What have we been doing for the last 2,000 years if the tribulation happened so long ago? Was Nero the antichrist?

I don't know what to believe anymore! Please help me out if you have some answers for me (or even share good books and resources that can help me.) Thanks!


You could read the book by Saucy. Robert Saucy. I have it and love it.

https://www.amazon.com/Case-Progres...tional-Non-Dispensational-ebook/dp/B004BA51E0
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,684
3,541
Non-dispensationalist
✟403,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
14,780
2,570
83
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟333,684.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
keras, now you are having the entire world go into anarchy because of the solar flare event?
It will be tough for a while, but order will be restored and a One World Govt established.
Christians in the nations are not going to react to solar flare event that decimates Israel
The massive CME the Lord will instigate will affect all the earth; for just as it revolves to face the sun, for only one day. Jeremiah 35:33
We Christians will hear God's whistle: Zechariah 10:8-10, Zechariah 8:1-8
to thinking we need move there right away and build a nation in that decimated land. No jobs, no hospitals, no water system, no sewage treatment, no schools, no gas stations, no supermarkets, no pharmacies, but let's go there and build an entire country.
The Lord has Promised to provide for His people. We will be mightily blessed and cared for. Isaiah 30:18
keras, you are talking about something that would take 20 years, and be a monumental process, with the nation of Israel, not even big enough to hold all the Christians from around the world. The population of Israel is around 8.6 million.
Sad really, you just don't have a clue of what God has Promised to do for His faithful people. Jeremiah 30:6-14

The holy Land is all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. The Lord will send rain and the Land will become like the garden of Eden.
When I lived in Jordan, I went out to a tree nursery. The American agriculturalist there said; All the land needs is water and it would become a jungle.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,684
3,541
Non-dispensationalist
✟403,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
It will be tough for a while, but order will be restored and a One World Govt established.

The massive CME the Lord will instigate will affect all the earth; for just as it revolves to face the sun, for only one day. Jeremiah 35:33

The Lord has Promised to provide for His people. We will be mightily blessed and cared for. Isaiah 30:18

Sad really, you just don't have a clue of what God will do for His people. Jeremiah 30:6-14

The holy Land is all the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. The Lord will send rain and the Land will become like the garden of Eden.
When I lived in Jordan, I went out to a tree nursery. The American agriculturalist there said; All the land needs is water and it would become a jungle.
Please address these two questions -

Are you going to have the relocated Pope, and the Vatican lead the Christian rebuilding of the temple and starting animal sacrifices again? Is it going to be a Catholic country or a non-Catholic country?
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
14,780
2,570
83
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟333,684.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Please address these two questions -

Are you going to have the relocated Pope, and the Vatican lead the Christian rebuilding of the temple and starting animal sacrifices again? Is it going to be a Catholic country or a non-Catholic country?
The only people allowed to reside in the holy Land. as the citizens of the new nation of beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, will be faithful Christians, those who stood firm and trusted the Lord during the fiery test. 1 Peter 4:12
Maybe the Pope will qualify, only the Lord knows who are His true Israelites, those who overcome the world for Him. Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 25, Revelation 3:5, 12
There will be no denominations. All will be one in Christ.

Christians will build the new Temple and will make offerings and sacrifices in it. Isaiah 56:1-8
Proved by how the Anti-Christ stops them; Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, Revelation 13:6
 
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,972
Alabama
✟509,396.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Christians will build the new Temple and will make offerings and sacrifices in it.

Those that follow Jesus (Christians) know that the old method of offing sacrifices for sin was done away with the death of Jesus who died for all mankind, therefor the act of offering sacrifices is a denial of the cleansing blood of Jesus.

The "Christians" in your above statement are not followers of our redemeer Jesus Christ who alone died for our sins. Jesus fulfilled the cerimonial laws of sacrifice. Thus offering sacrifices is a show of the non acceptence of the atoning blood of Jesus.

In other words the "christians" in your story above are antichrists.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,684
3,541
Non-dispensationalist
✟403,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
The only people allowed to reside in the holy Land. as the citizens of the new nation of beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, will be faithful Christians, those who stood firm and trusted the Lord during the fiery test. 1 Peter 4:12
Maybe the Pope will qualify, only the Lord knows who are His true Israelites, those who overcome the world for Him. Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 25, Revelation 3:5, 12
There will be no denominations. All will be one in Christ.

Christians will build the new Temple and will make offerings and sacrifices in it. Isaiah 56:1-8
Proved by how the Anti-Christ stops them; Daniel 9:27, Daniel 11:31, Revelation 13:6
I don't think that Catholics and non-Catholics would give up their doctrine beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,972
Alabama
✟509,396.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I don't think that Catholics and non-Catholics would give up their doctrine beliefs.

Non catholics follow catholic teachings

that is why Jesus said in
Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
29,684
3,541
Non-dispensationalist
✟403,081.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Non catholics follow catholic teachings
Such as praying to the virgin Mary ? I don't think so.

keras, in his scenario thinks that Christians from around the world will migrate to the land of Israel, following a solar flare event. And then proceed to build a Christian nation called Beulah.

But there are Catholic Christians (a large number worldwide) and non-Catholic (also a large number worldwide) Christians, like SDA. Which of those two are going to give up their firmly held doctrines ?

One reason, I don't see the scenario as viable.

As SDA, do you support Christians rebuilding the temple and starting animal sacrifices again ?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Site Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,972
Alabama
✟509,396.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Such as praying to the virgin Mary ? I don't think so.

I should have clarified what I was saying
not all of the catholic teachings by non catholics

thanks for the correction
 
Upvote 0

keras

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
Feb 7, 2013
14,780
2,570
83
Thames, New Zealand
Visit site
✟333,684.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Those that follow Jesus (Christians) know that the old method of offing sacrifices for sin was done away with the death of Jesus who died for all mankind, therefor the act of offering sacrifices is a denial of the cleansing blood of Jesus.
That is how it is during this Christian age.
But it won't be in the future, as God does not change. He wanted sacrifices and offerings in the past and He will do so again. Proved by Zechariah 14:16-21
This does not abrogate the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus for our sins now.
 
Upvote 0