I'm not religious, I have a relationship with God.

[Sketcher]

I heard a person who appeared to be Christian say this. What does this mean? He said religion is man's interpretation of God, where relationship with God is God without man's interference. But it seems to me, because men wrote the bible, without religion you don't get the Bible, and without the Bible you don't get Jesus; so how do you get to Jesus without religion?

Ah, yes. This line. It's well-intentioned, but I believe it falls short.

I don't know where this man specifically is at, if he's a mainstream Christian or not, so I can't speak for him. When Christians say stuff like this, it is usually meant to emphasize the grace the God gives us without our deserving it, and that mucking it up with rules that Jesus didn't set is not what they're about. You also might hear something about "religion" being the way man needs to earn his favor with God or something like that too, and Christianity is different because it's God's grace not our works that justify us before him.

Now, I agree with the parts about God's grace not being deserved by us, that we don't work our way to earning his favor, and that we can't do that, and that we shouldn't be mucking up God's grace with rules that Jesus didn't set. However, there are some significant problems with explaining it this way.

1. It relies on a definition of "religion" that only a subset of Protestant Christians use. The world doesn't define religion that way, so our own definition makes it harder to talk about it from an evangelistic perspective. Not only that, Paul and James didn't agree with that definition of "religion" either when they wrote 1 Timothy 5:4 and James 1:26-27 under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. This isn't to say that we are saved by our good works, but rather that we need to maintain a right understanding of "religion" in the context of Christianity, which teaches that we are saved by what Jesus did for us rather than our own good works. The true Gospel does not depend on a bent definition of "religion".
2. Many Christians who will say that they do not consider themselves to be "religious" will be very much into evangelizing people, bringing them to church, and getting them not only converted, but baptized, and praying the way we pray and worshiping the way we worship and rejecting their old sinful ways in favor of Christian teaching. If a convert is entwined in sins of the flesh, they'll want them to stop. So, the "non-religious" Christians have quite a few rules after all. I can see why non-believers would see this as bad marketing.
3. A relationship with God will contain faith, obedience to his will, and prayer. These are unavoidably religious concepts, but in Christianity these religious concepts are also relational. After all, any quality relationship with anyone will contain a measure of trust, acts of love (in the "treat others as you wish to be treated" sense, not necessarily romantic stuff) and communication. In Christianity, faith is trust in God. Obedience is an act of love towards God (Luke 6:46, John 14:21). Prayer is how we communicate with God.

So, I very much have the conservative, evangelical Protestant view of salvation and yet "religion" isn't a dirty word to me. It shouldn't be a dirty word to any true Christian, but it takes time for bad trends to blow over.

 

[ViaCrucis]

From what I've heard, that's why old churches have stained glass depictions.

It's not just iconography and art that teaches, the reason a lot of old churches are built in a certain way is because even the architecture was intended to teach. Many of the really old churches are built octogonally, this is still seen today as baptismal fonts continue to be octogonal--as the number 8 was symbolic of regeneration and renewal (Christ was raised on the "8th" day of the week, the day after the 7th day, circumcision took place on the 8th day after birth). The high vaults, especially domes, are designed not only to invite one to gaze up into the infinite expanse of heaven, but the accoustics were also kept in mind, so that the sound could resound--all reminding the Christian worshiper that they are not alone, but are worshiping together with all the saints and the hosts of heaven.

The building, the art, the iconography, the incense, the entire shape and rhythm of the Liturgy--it's all there as part of a rich, robust, living Christian faith and practice. It is the shape of our confession, it's how we hear the word of God, it's how we receive the word of God, it's how we confess and believe the word of God.

It's not about the stones or wood, or the glass, or whatever is burned in the censor, or the notes which the organist or cantor or choir performs. It's about a living, dynamic, Spirit-filled big bold expression of Christianity-in-practice. Here heaven and earth meet together, contact is made, God meets man where man is, meeting us here in Word and Sacrament; and everything that surrounds Word and Sacrament, literally and figuratively, is meant to give context for that, pointing to these, and Christ who meets us in these.

The eschewing of "religion" in favor of "a personal relationship" is like a man who says he loves his wife, but never talks to her, takes her out, is never home, and doesn't even wears his wedding ring out in public.

That the "religious stuff" being eschewed is our personal relationship with God. Because our personal relationship is never about just me in relation to God; but me, with you, and everyone else, together in Christ, in relation to God. So that we are, together, the Temple of God in which is true worship of God in spirit and in truth, as we offer the sacrifice of praise; that we might then also go and minister to the world, offering our own bodies as living sacrifices to the Lord.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[angelsaroundme]

For some its nothing more than an emphasis on the personal and emotional aspects of their Christian life. They may be seekers of the presence of God. Perhaps they get really into worship like David.

 

[Francis Drake]

Do you have to be familiar with the Bible in order to know the Holy Spirit?

Luke11v9“So I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 11If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!”

As Jesus said above, anyone can ask for the Holy Spirit. There are no qualifications other than the humility to ask God. There are no theological requirements other than seeking God.

Leading people to get filled with the Holy Spirit should be the very first objective of all teachers and evangelists.

 

[Ken-1122]

I guess you are saying faith does not make sense. God gave everyon the measure of faith. You,my friend, have faith, even if you don't understand.God gave you faith. He also gave you will, that is the power of choice. I think of it as trust. You choose to trust that the chair you are sitting in will hold you and not dump you on the floor. That is faith. That is the measure of faith that everyone has. When someone prays to God,he trusts that God hears him.

Doesn’t equating the term “faith” with trust cheapen the word faith? I’ve always defined faith as a belief without evidence. With this chair, I can always turn it over and inspect the screws, nuts, and bolts to get proof that it will hold my weight.

The people who penned the Bible were men full of the Spirit of God and by the Spirit their writings are inspired.The Spirit of God is what draws people to God. People hear the inspired Word of God and the Holy Spirit draws them into belief in Jesus Christ the Lord.Understand, men only penned God's Word. But the Spirit of God that was within them inspire (dictated) what they wrote, so we can and do trust it.

Would you say God took away their freewill and forced their hand when they penned the books that eventually became the Bible?

 

[Ken-1122]

No.

So how do you know of the Holy Spirit if you've never heard of the Bible? Or even the trinity for that matter?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Doesn’t equating the term “faith” with trust cheapen the word faith? I’ve always defined faith as a belief without evidence. With this chair, I can always turn it over and inspect the screws, nuts, and bolts to get proof that it will hold my weight.

Is that what you think about faith? Faith is being sure of what you hope for and the evidence of things not seen. Yes you can check your chair out, but you don't do you?

Would you say God took away their freewill and forced their hand when they penned the books that eventually became the Bible?

I would say that God made their will His will. But that is just the way I see it. He is God.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So how do you know of the Holy Spirit if you've never heard of the Bible? Or even the trinity for that matter?

I experience the Holy Spirit, and experience the Trinity, and don't know it. Later on I read the bible, and decades later it makes sense because I experienced it.

The terminology used is handed down, but if I woke up 300 years from now and it was explained differently, I'd be able to identify what I'm experiencing with the words being used.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Doesn’t equating the term “faith” with trust cheapen the word faith? I’ve always defined faith as a belief without evidence. With this chair, I can always turn it over and inspect the screws, nuts, and bolts to get proof that it will hold my weight.

Would you say God took away their freewill and forced their hand when they penned the books that eventually became the Bible?

A belief without evidence is something that can be believed with faith, but it isn't what faith itself is. Faith is, first and foremost, trust. When the New Testament talks about "faith in Jesus" it means trusting in Jesus, a bold confidence in Christ's trustworthiness and ability.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Ken-1122]

Is that what you think about faith? Faith is being sure of what you hope for and the evidence of things not seen. Yes you can check your chair out, but you don't do you?

Because I am allowed to inspect the chair, I do know. The details of the chair is something I can have 100% confidence it because I can see it; but faith is unseen right?

 

[Taodeching]

I heard a person who appeared to be Christian say this. What does this mean? He said religion is man's interpretation of God, where relationship with God is God without man's interference. But it seems to me, because men wrote the bible, without religion you don't get the Bible, and without the Bible you don't get Jesus; so how do you get to Jesus without religion?

You don't. The person is parroting some very wrong ideas. Christianity in and of itself is a religion

 

[Ken-1122]

I experience the Holy Spirit, and experience the Trinity, and don't know it. Later on I read the bible, and decades later it makes sense because I experienced it.

So if someone never heard of Christianity, they can still experience the Holy Spirit?

 

[Sketcher]

Doesn’t equating the term “faith” with trust cheapen the word faith? I’ve always defined faith as a belief without evidence.

I've always considered reducing faith to "belief without evidence" as very cheapening to the word "faith" myself. Faith will include trust, and if that faith is in a positive thing, it will include hope. And even this doesn't really do it justice.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

So if someone never heard of Christianity, they can still experience the Holy Spirit?

Yes.

Though, nowadays - it's less likely to not have heard something.

 

[Ken-1122]

I've always considered reducing faith to "belief without evidence" as very cheapening to the word "faith" myself.

But there is already a word for belief based on evidence; we call it "proof". I mean; does it really take an act of faith to believe the chair I am sitting in will continue to hold my weight as it has since I've had it?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

but faith is unseen right?

Yes, like air/wind is unseen. Yet you trust that it is there for you to breathe.
John 3:8 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

But there is already a word for belief based on evidence; we call it "proof". I mean; does it really take an act of faith to believe the chair I am sitting in will continue to hold my weight as it has since I've had it?

You trust that it will hold you. That is an act of faith.

 

[Ken-1122]

Yes, like air/wind is unseen. Yet you trust that it is there for you to breathe.
John 3:8 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

You trust that it will hold you. That is an act of faith.

Not meaning to get tied up in word definitions, but I assume to see is more than just the ability to physically see with the naked eye; but the ability to experience using one or more of my five senses (empirical evidence). I can feel the wind via my sense of touch.
If I had to trust the chair I am sitting in would hold me, I wouldn’t sit in it for fear of it failing me and injuring myself; I have to have more confidence than trust I have to have proof to my satisfaction. Would it be safe to say your faith in God is proof to your satisfaction? If so do you see a difference between proof and faith?

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Not meaning to get tied up in word definitions, but I assume to see is more than just the ability to physically see with the naked eye; but the ability to experience using one or more of my five senses (empirical evidence). I can feel the wind via my sense of touch.
If I had to trust the chair I am sitting in would hold me, I wouldn’t sit in it for fear of it failing me and injuring myself; I have to have more confidence than trust I have to have proof to my satisfaction. Would it be safe to say your faith in God is proof to your satisfaction? If so do you see a difference between proof and faith?

There is nothing more I have to say in this matter. I have prayed for your salvation.

 

[Sketcher]

But there is already a word for belief based on evidence; we call it "proof". I mean; does it really take an act of faith to believe the chair I am sitting in will continue to hold my weight as it has since I've had it?

Maybe not that particular chair, but the illustration of a chair is a very simplistic model. I'd say you had faith in your way of looking at the world, to the point that you arrived at your definition of faith and became comfortable with it.