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Iglesia Ni Cristo Replies

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by edpobre, Sep 25, 2002.

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  1. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    I haven't posted one insult to you.

     
  2. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Blatant misquoting, twisting, and reading presuppositions into the scripture.

    John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

    Where are the words, “son of God”, in this verse? Where is the word, “messiah”? Where are the words “God’s plan. ?”
    ”misleading trinitarian alteration.”? Hogwash! How much training and experience do you have in Biblical Greek? This is nothing but blind parroting anti-Trinity nonsense by, and from, persons who know diddly squat about the Greek language. First, the term “messiah” never occurs in this verse, or the entire Gospel of John. “Messias” only occurs twice but never spoken by Jesus. John 1:41, Andrew tells Peter he has found the “Messias” and John 4:25, the woman at the well says when “Messias” comes He will tell us all things. The words ego eimi literally means “I Am.” “(He)”, in parentheses, means it was added by the translators. Sometimes, but not always, it is correct to do so, if the sentence has an implied predicate.
    The Jewish leaders, scribes and Pharisees, did not try to stone Jesus because He claimed to be the messiah, but because He was claiming to be God, see John 10:33, below! They could not arrest or stone Jesus, at this time, because His hour had not yet come, John 8:20.

    John 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    John 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

    I have asked Kain, Pobre, and Franklin to translate and parse the Greek, they claim is mistranslated, several times. But none of them can translate a single verse of Greek, if their life depended on it. And none of them have been able to quote a single acknowledged Greek language scholar to back up their false claims of “mistranslation].” Koolaid anyone?

    John 8:58 eipen autoiV o ihsouV amhn amhn legw umin prin abraam yenesqai eyw eimi

    I previously discussed the “I Am” passages, at considerable length, at (John 8:58/Ex 3:14). Among the points I proved, from the scriptures, was that “I Am” was an exclusive name/reference to God in the O.T. So much so, that God brought judgment on Babylon and Assyria for referring to themselves as “I Am”, Isaiah 47:8, 10 and Zephaniah 2:15


    In the LXX, the Greek translation of the O.T. by Jewish scholars, 250 years before Christ, eyw eimi/”ego Eimi””/”I Am” was an exclusive title for God. And the O.T. verses which have eyw eimi, were read on a regular basis in the synagogues.

    Here is a brief quote from my previous post quoting, A. T. Robertson, who taught post graduate N.T. Greek for forty seven years. And Kain can’t even translate one word of Greek.

    Robertson Word Pictures in the New Testament

    {Before Abraham was} (\prin Abraam genesthai\). Usual idiom with \prin\ in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of \ginomai\) and the accusative of general reference, "before coming as to Abraham," "before Abraham came into existence or was born." {I am} (\egô eimi\). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between \genesthai\ (entrance into existence of Abraham) and \eimi\ (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between \en\ in #1:1 and \egeneto\ in #1:14.
    Once again Kain, according to Jewish sources, you don’t know what you are talking about. “He (God) said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’ This according to the Jewish Publication Society English translation, published in 1910. Is that a “Trinitarian misapplication” too?

    (JPS) Exod 3:14 And God said unto Moses: ‘I AM THAT I AM’; and He said: ‘Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.’

    If “I Am” was a common phrase, among the Jews, then the N.T. should be full of examples. Where are those examples? Click (there ain’t none!) for my previous discussion of this.


    All this baseless argumentation claiming that “I Am”, in John 8:58, does not mean that Jesus is calling Himself God, ignores the fact that when Jesus spoke these words, in the temple, Jewish leaders, Scribes and Pharisees, picked up stones and attempted to stone Jesus, in the temple! If Jesus was merely claiming to be the Messiah or a part of God’s plan why did the Jewish leaders attempt to commit two great sins, i.e. murder, stoning Him without a trial or hearing and desecrating the temple? Claiming to be the messiah or a part of God’s plan isnot a stoning offense, under O.T. law, taking the name of God is and the Jews themselves said that was the reason, see John 10:33, above.

    John 8:20 These words spake Jesus in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man laid hands on him; for his hour was not yet come.

    John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

    Here is that single proof you claim does not exist. I discussed this in depth at this link, 1 John 5:7.

    1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    Note, there is no predicate after “one”. Whatever the Father is, the Word and the Spirit are a unity, i.e. co-equal, with that. If God is eternal then whatever is a unity with Him is also or, co-eternal!
    ”Pagan. Pagan. Pagan. The sky is falling. The sky is falling. The sky is falling.” This entire statement is one big lie, anti-Christian liars, quoting other anti-Christian liars, quoting yet more anti-Christian liars, without one shred of historical proof or evidence! None, nada, nil, zip!

    First, the Trinity was written about by the early church over 140 years before Constantine, Theophilus, 180 AD. And Tertullian (c.160-220 AD), even devoted an entire book to defending the Trinity (Against Praxeas). And note, Tertullian lived over a hundred years prior to Nicea.and Constantine

    Click (Early Church Fathers) to verify.

    Second, the only thing you have right is Constantine’s name. Whatever Constantine might have believed and practiced before becoming a Christian is irrelevant. If you read the “real” history, Constantine himself was not a Trinitarian but an Arian! The official doctrine of the eastern church, where Constantine had his headquarters, was Arianism for forty years after Constantine’s death. Constantine issued no “decrees” concerning the Christian church!

    Your presumption is absurd. Without one shred of evidence whatsoever, early Christians were supposedly willing to deny and compromise their faith because Constantine, an alleged pagan, ended the persecution of Christians but only a short time before thousands were persecuted, tortured and killed in horrible ways, because they would not denounce their faith and worship Caesar. Would the majority of Christians who had family, loved ones, friends, tortured and killed willingly embrace the same pagan practices that their family and friends had been killed for refusing? Absolute stinking garbage! No proof! No evidence! Nothing but anti-Christian babbling!

    This also calls Jesus a liar. This anti-Christian nonsense claims that the church willingly fell into pagan practices following the Nicaean council, in 325 AD. But Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against the church that He built upon the rock. And that rock was not Peter. So is Kain’s unsupported, undocumented, unproven, anti-Christian nonsense true or are the words of Jesus true?


    Mt 16:18 upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
     
  3. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Mt 16:18 upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Where is any historical evidence that Constantine, or any of his supporters, believed that he became a god upon his death? In fact the real history shows that he postponed baptism because he wanted to be baptized in the Jordan river, as Jesus was, but finally asked to be baptized when he realized he was dying. Back up any of your nonsense from any reputable historical source, for example, any major encyclopedia or recognized church history, such as,

    A History of Christianity, Vol. I, Beginnings to 1500, Kenneth Scott Latourette, Harper & Row, 1975. 678 pp.
    Early Christian Doctrines, J.N.D. Kelley, Harper & Row, 1978, 499 pp.
    The History of Doctrines, Reinhold Seeberg, Baker House, 1978, 466 pp.

    False! 1 Cor 15:45 does not call Jesus the son of God! How does this explain Psalm 2, 1000+ before the birth of Christ, and Heb 1:5?

    Ps 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    ”Thou art my Son; this day [1000+ years before Christ’s birth] have I begotten thee.” In Heb 1:5 Psalm 2:7 applied to Christ.

    Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?


    Also in Heb 1:8-9 God calls the son, God, twice!

    Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
    9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

    Demonic, and execrable twisting of the scriptures straight from the pits of Satan. The word “desired” does not appear in this passage. As a matter of fact, it does not appear in the book of Philippians, anywhere.

    Jesus existed in the morfh of God but thought being equal with God was not something to be grasped. He took on Himself and made Himself in the morfh of a servant, a man.

    Before, Jesus humbled Himself, He was in the “morfh of” and “equal to God”! After He humbled Himself, Jesus was in the morfh of man. If Jesus was not completely and totally God, before, then He was not completely and totally man, afterward. And since Jesus was completely and totally man, the same language requires that Jesus was also completely and totally God.


    Philp 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


    Robertson, Word Pictures, Philp 2:6
    {Being} (\huparchôn\). Rather, "existing," present active participle of \huparchô In the form of God (\en morphêi theou\). \Morphê\ means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ. {A prize} (\harpagmon\). Predicate accusative with \hêgêsato Originally words in mos\ signified the act, not the result (ma\). The few examples of \harpagmos\ (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to \harpagma\, like \baptismos\ and \baptisma That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won ("robbery"). {To be on an equality with God} (\to einai isa theoi\). Accusative articular infinitive object of \hêgêsato\, "the being equal with God" (associative instrumental case \theôi\ after \isa\). \Isa\ is adverbial use of neuter plural with \einai\ as in #Re 21:16.

    Jesus “existed” in the form of God in the same way that God “exists” as Lord of heaven and earth in Acts 17:24. Both verses use the same Greek word.

    Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is (uparcw) Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

    Link to Previous post on Philp 2:6, Link to 2nd previous post on Philp 2:6

    Kain: “he instead humbled himself for the glory of God and denied being God.” Where is one verse where Jesus denied being God? When Thomas called Jesus My Lord and My God, Jesus praised him!

    Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


    This is not exclamation, but address! In the Greek it is “the Lord of me and the God of me.” Even if an exclamatory construction existed, Thomas, a devout Jew, would never use the name of God as an interjection or exclamation. Note, Thomas is not talking to Jesus and someone else, “Thomas answered and said unto him” Not, them! The only him there, was Jesus.

    Robertson, Word Pictures
    {My Lord and my God} (\o kurioV mou kai o qeoV mou\). Not exclamation, but address, the vocative case though the form of the nominative, a very common thing in the _Koiné_. Thomas was wholly convinced and did not hesitate to address the Risen Christ as Lord and God. And Jesus accepts the words and praises Thomas for so doing.
     
  4. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

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    He was deified by the Roman Senate after his death.

    http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/constantine.html

    If you want to read nonsense, just read what you post.

    The old testament has nothing on the trinity, despite your deception to the contrary. The New testament authors, mostly being Jews also mention nothing of the trinity. The Jews believe in a human messiah sent by God. They believe in the idea of messiah preplanned by God. In the new testament, the authors believe Jesus is this prophecied messiah sent by God. A Jewish custom of agency that exists in the old testament (where agents of God are called God) is sometimes repeated in NT.

    Of all the gospels, only John's comes close to the trintiy idea, but even John, perhaps realising this, insures that there will be no mistake when he insistst that Jesus is a man.
    John is talking about the pre-existing plan of the messiah, which became manifest in the man Jesus, all in conformity to Jewish beliefs.
     
  5. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

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    That's a bad analogy. Water is still water in all it's forms. It doesn't become three waters in one. It's only in one state at a time, never liquid/solid/gas/plasma all at once.

    So, by your analogy, God left heaven, became a human then went back up to heaven and sat at the right hand of... whom?
     
  6. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Excuse me? Do you read and comprehend English? I said, “Where is any historical evidence that Constantine, or any of his supporters, believed that he became a god upon his death?” It is irrelevant what the Roman, ie. Pagan un-Christian, senate did or did not do after Constantine’s death.
    Sour grapes because you cannot provide a meaningful response to 99% of my post.
    Except that according to the Jewish Encyclopedia the Trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit existed in pre-Christian Judaism. My previous post on the JE (here). Your infantile protestations notwithstanding.
    False. No such custom. And even if there were there is no evidence of any such thing in the N. T.

    More adolescent parroting of whatever your group spews out. In the beginning the Word was God. (John 1:1). Jesus existed in the form of God, equal to God. (Philp 2:6) and (more Philp 2:6)
     
  7. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

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    Yes, a fine Christian emperor that did nothing to ensure he wouldn't be deified upon death, and did nothing to stop the custom. The simple truth, which you can't accept is that Constantine used Christianity to gain political influence in his troublesome empire. The doctrine of the twinity he fathered went a good way in assimilating the pagans who believed in man-gods.

    I presented proof of my original statement, not your strawman response.

    Sheesh, you simply don't let go of previously refuted statements. The Zohar is not Judaism. It's Cabbalistic mysticism used by some Jews, the authorship and dating of its parts is not certain and suspected of being later additions, and it's not considered a reliable source.

    You should really read the rest of the article you like quoting from.

    Here is what Tracey R. Rich has to say
    The same author has this to say on the Kabbalah
    Which just asserts the article found at the Jewish encyclopedia that you like to quote: the part that shows Christians found the trinity in the Cabalah and managed to convert some Jews into Christianity.


    Of course there is, and the N.T. affirms it.

    In Exodus, the burning bush appears to Moses and identifies himself as "I am who I am"

    but Acts 7:30 says: And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.

    and again in verse 35: This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.

    The speaker in the bush, who identified himself "I am..." is here identified as an angel of God!

    Though the angel claimed to be "I am," he wasn't God. This angel was an agent of God speaking on God's behalf, just as Jesus did in the N.T.

    Again in v. 38 7:38
    This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

    This time, the being who spoke to Moses on Mt. Sinai is identified as an angel.

    This is re-affirmed in Hebrews 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

    Want more?

    Here is another

    Acts 12:7 12:7
    And, behold, the angel of the Lord came upon him, and a light shined in the prison: and he smote Peter on the side, and raised him up, saying, Arise up quickly. And his chains fell off from his hands.

    Peter is rescued from jail by an "angel of the Lord."

    But later, in v. 17, Peter says God led him out of prison:
    But he, beckoning unto them with the hand to hold their peace, declared unto them how the Lord had brought him out of the prison. And he said, Go shew these things unto James, and to the brethren. And he departed, and went into another place.

    Peter is also using the custom of agency.

    Are you not guilty of parroting what your group spews out? Or maybe, everything you spew is of your own mind... but just about everything you say is repeated in dozens of 'trinitarian' support sites.

    Simply stated, the word of God is a personification of an impersonal will of God in action. That interpretation, though designed to be friendly towards trinitarian dogma (the word was interpreted as an 'it' in bibles earlier than KJV) still says nothing about God in three persons, or weather Christ became God when the word entered Christ during his baptism. The word of God, the indwelling spirit of God. This is in Christ, but not God-Christ, not a separate person-God. Such theories are unsupported.

    Phil 2:6
    Paul is showing that Jesus was in the form of God (similar to other agents that appeared in the form of God explained above), not God himself nor an equal of God. In fact, Paul goes on to say the Jesus, even though he was an agent of God endowed with God-like powers, he did not consider being God something to be grasped, rather, he made himself humble.
     
  8. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    Go back to your previous posts and HONESTLY tell me whether you have or have NOT hurled insults at me nor anyone else.

    Ed
     
  9. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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         You made the accusation. Back it up with facts or apologize.
     
  10. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

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    If you are really that Biblically savvy OldShepherd, tell us what "day of Christ" did Abraham SEE and made him glad. And how did the Jews understand this?

    Resortig to INSULT again. Childish!

    The Jews were ACCUSING Jesus of committing BLASPHEMY, a charge punishable by death.  

    If I were to ACCUSE you of BLASPHEMY OldShepherd, wouldn't you ask me what MADE me THINK you were committing BLASPHEMY?

    Tell me OldShepherd, what did Jesus DO or SAY that made the Jews THINK he committed BLASPHEMY, he being a MAN?

    The Bible says, he SAID "God was his Father" (John 5:18) and SAID "I am the SON of God" (John 10:36). Was Jesus making himself God when he SAID these? Definitely NOT! The Jews WRONGLY accused him of BLASPHEMY!

    I ask again OldShepherd, what is the "day of Christ" that Abraham was glad to SEE? And how does "I AM" relate to this "day?"

    Ed
     
  11. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    The simple truth is you have posted nothing but presumption, assumption, and presupposition. No evidence! No, documentation! “He did nothing to ensure he wouldn't be deified upon death, and did nothing to stop the custom?” Are we to assume that Constantine was somehow supposed to arise from the dead, come out of his tomb and right all wrongs concerning his name? The action of the Roman senate was against Constantine’s express wishes which your own quote clearly states. Again, I quoted from acknowledged historical sources. Constantine was not a Trinitarian nor was he a binitarian. He was the early equivalent of a JW, an Aryan.

    The official doctrine of the eastern part of the empire was Aryan, which held that Christ was a created being, not of the same substance as God, for 40 years after Constantine’s death. See any major encyclopedia or the histories by contemporary historians, Eusebius and Lactantius. Constantine fathered nothing concerning the church, his letters to churches and bishops urged, not decreed, them to comply with the Nicaean pronouncements.

    Sheesh, you have refuted absolutely nothing. Nothing! This is just adolescent posturing. If you think you have, show some integrity and link to the post. This is the second time I have asked you to back up your false accusations. Unlike you, I have read the entire article, not only that, I posted almost the entire article, on two occasions, as proof that you, not me, were dancing around, skirting, evading, everything but telling the truth, selectively quoting one out-of-context sentence trying to prove your argument.

    awf d[ $[rb hn[t-alw

    Below is my previous post, quoting from and linking to the Zohar article, please show where it unequivocally says, “
    It's Cabbalistic mysticism used by some Jews, the authorship and dating of its parts is not certain and suspected of being later additions, and it's not considered a reliable source.”, as you claim. It is absurd to state this, when the Jewish Encyclopedia, itself, quotes the “Zohar”, without qualification, in the article I cited.
     
  12. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Previously posted by OS

    In response to my posting the complete first paragraph from, and link to, the Jewish Encyclopedia (JE), “Trinity -in the Zohar” article, you posted one out-of-context sentence, quoted here, from a different article, “The Zohar”, which does not specifically address the JE Trinity article I posted, but purportedly shows that the Zohar misquotes scripture and contains other errors.

    Link to this post.

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/23536-13.html

    I responded with a detailed rebuttal from the same JE article. Note, unlike your response, the very argument you presented, by Emden, was “refuted”, in the same JE article, in the following paragraph, quoting other Talmud scholars, Moses ben Menahem Kunitz and David Luria. You blatantly, “selectively,” quoted only a portion of the article and dishonestly and deliberately omitted what contradicted your argument.

    • Jewish Encyclopedia, On The Zohar
      These and other objections of Emden's, which were largely borrowed from the French ecclesiastic Jean Morin ("Exercitationes Biblicæ," pp. 359 et seq., Paris, 1669),were refuted by Moses ben Menahem Kunitz, who, in a work entitled "Ben Yohai" (Budapest, 1815), endeavors to show the following characteristics: that the vowel-points were known in Talmudic times; that the rites which Emden claimed to have been ordained by later rabbinical authoritieswere already known to the Talmud; and that Simeon ben Yohai, who before taking refuge in the cave was designated only by the name of Simeon, is credited in the Talmud with many miracles and mystic sayings. Another work in favor of the antiquity of the Zohar was published by David Luria under the title "admut ha-Zohar" (Königsberg, 1855 [?]). It is divided into five chapters, in which the author gives proofs that Moses de Leon did not compile the Zohar; that the Geonim in Babylonia cite cabalistic doctrines from a certain "Midrash Yerushalmi," the language of which strongly resembles that of the Zohar; that the work was compiled before the completion of the Talmud; that a great part of it was written in the period of Simeon ben Yohai; and, finally, that the Aramaic language was used in Talmudic times as well as in the geonic period.

      http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/v...id=142&letter=Z
    I have read on in the “Memra” article, in fact, I am posting it, below. Please show where “God created through His Memra.” What the article actually shows, with more than one hundred (100) scripture references, is that Memra, was substituted for the divine name, יהוה/YHWH, in the Targums. In pre-Christian, Jewish thought, the “memra” was God, which is exactly what John, who was a Jew, wrote. “The Word was God!”
    * * *
    What parallels, where is it written? You have offered no evidence of any parallels. The Memra article actually says, “Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth"(Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13);, not “through” anything!

    Isa 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
    Once again, one “selectively quoted” out-of-context, sentence, which ignores, and is contradicted by, the rest of the article.
    Patently false, it is clear from this Theology, the “Memra”/“Word of God”, in the Targums, is God, Himself. Which, “other verses?” I assume you are referring to one verse, John 17:3. While John quotes Jesus addressing the Father, in the second person, “You, the only true God..” In the same verse Jesus refers to “Jesus Christ”, in the third person. Does that prove that the Jesus speaking is not the Jesus Christ sent by the Father? Can you give a consistent, non-contradictory, hermeneutic of this verse?

    Also in 1 John 5:20, the same writer, John refers to Jesus as the true God. I have presented scriptural proof of this several times. See links.


    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/21028-19.html

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/21028-21.html

    http://www.christianforums.com/threads/21028-22.html


    I have no case? Let’s review. You posted a quote from, and link to, the JE, “Torah” article, vainly trying to pass off the Torah as ”The Word.” When I presented irrefutable evidence, i.e. The “Memra” article, proving you did not know what you were talking about, you simply ignored your blatant falsehood and, quoted one sentence, out-of-context, from the “Memra” article, as if that single sentence was the entire article. It is you who has no case.
    Previously posted By OS

    • Memra
      ”The Word,
      " in the sense of the creative or directive word or speech of God manifesting His power in the world of matter or mind; a term used especially in the Targum as a substitute for "the Lord" [יהוה/YHWH]] when an anthropomorphic expression is to be avoided.

      Memra—In the Targum:
      In the Targum the Memra figures constantly as the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself, wherever the predicate is not in conformity with the dignity or the spirituality of the Deity. [/I](Note, this statement contradicts the opening sentence, highlighted above, is not supported by the article, below, and is very obviously merely anti-Christian, anti-Trinity polemics. OS)

      Instead of the Scriptural "You have not believed in the Lord," Targ. Deut. i. 32 has "You have not believed in the word of the Lord"; instead of "[bI shall require it [vengeance] from him," Targ. Deut. xviii. 19 has "My word shall require it.
    • " "The Memra, (i.e. Word)" instead of "the Lord," is "the consuming fire" (Targ. Deut. ix. 3; comp. Targ. Isa. xxx. 27). The Memra "plagued the people" (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xxxii. 35). "The Memra smote him" (II Sam. vi. 7; comp. Targ. I Kings xviii. 24; Hos. xiii. 14; et al.).”

      http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/v...id=399&letter=M

    Now, the rest of the story. Note that in virtually every occurrence “memra” is substituted for the divine name יהוה (YHWH). “Memra” is not “the manifestation of the divine power, or as God's messenger in place of God Himself.” But, the “Memra” is literally יהוה (YHWH), Himself, as in this first reference, below![/I]

    • Jewish Encyclopedia, Memra
      Not "God," but "the Memra,"[/b] is met with in Targ. Ex. xix. 17 (Targ. Yer. "the Shekinah"; comp. Targ. Ex. xxv. 22: "I will order My Memra to be there"). "I will cover thee with My Memra," instead of "My hand" (Targ. Ex. xxxiii. 22). Instead of "My soul," "My Memra shall reject you" (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 30; comp. Isa. i. 14, xlii. 1; Jer. vi. 8; Ezek. xxiii. 18). "The voice of the Memra," instead of "God" is heard (Gen. iii. 8; Deut. iv. 33, 36; v. 21; Isa. vi. 8; et al.). Where Moses says, "I stood between the Lord and you" (Deut. v. 5), the Targum has, "between the Memra of the Lord and you"; and the "sign between Me and you" becomes a "sign between My Memra and you" (Ex. xxxi. 13, 17; comp. Lev. xxvi. 46; Gen. ix. 12; xvii. 2, 7, 10; Ezek. xx. 12). Instead of God, the Memra comes to Abimelek (Gen. xx. 3), and to Balaam (Num. xxiii. 4). His Memra aids and accompanies Israel, performing wonders for them (Targ. Num. xxiii. 21; Deut. i. 30, xxxiii. 3; Targ. Isa. lxiii. 14; Jer. xxxi. 1; Hos. ix. 10 [comp. xi. 3, "the messenger-angel"]). The Memra goes before Cyrus (Isa. xlv. 12). The Lord swears by His Memra [vice: Himself] (Gen. xxi. 23, xxii. 16, xxiv. 3; Ex. xxxii. 13; Num. xiv. 30; Isa. xlv. 23; Ezek. xx. 5; et al.). It is His Memra that repents (Targ. Gen. vi. 6, viii. 21; I Sam. xv. 11, 35). Not His "hand," but His "Memra has laid the foundation of the earth" (Targ. Isa. xlviii. 13); for His Memra's or Name's sake does He act (l.c. xlviii. 11; II Kings xix. 34). Through the Memra God turns to His people (Targ. Lev. xxvi. 90; II Kings xiii. 23), becomes the shield of Abraham (Gen. xv. 1), and is with Moses (Ex. iii. 12; iv. 12, 15) and with Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. x. 35, 36; Isa. lxiii. 14). It is the Memra, not God Himself, against whom man offends (Ex. xvi. 8; Num. xiv. 5; I Kings viii. 50; II Kings xix. 28; Isa. i. 2, 16; xlv. 3, 20; Hos. v. 7, vi. 7; Targ. Yer. to Lev. v. 21, vi. 2; Deut. v. 11); through His Memra Israel shall be justified (Targ. Isa. xlv. 25); with the Memra Israel stands in communion (Targ. Josh. xxii. 24, 27); in the Memra man puts his trust (Targ. Gen. xv. 6; Targ. Yer. to Ex. xiv. 31; Jer. xxxix. 18, xlix. 11).
     
  13. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    • Memra-Mediatorship.
      Like the Shekinah (comp. Targ. Num. xxiii. 21), the Memra is accordingly the manifestation of God. "The Memra brings Israel nigh unto God and sits on His throne receiving the prayers of Israel" (Targ. Yer. to Deut. iv. 7). It shielded Noah from the flood (Targ. Yer. to Gen. vii. 16) and brought about the dispersion of the seventy nations (l.c. xi. 8); it is the guardian of Jacob (Gen. xxviii. 20-21, xxxv. 3) and of Israel (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xii. 23, 29); it works all the wonders in Egypt (l.c. xiii. 8, xiv. 25); hardens the heart of Pharaoh (l.c. xiii. 15); goes before Israel in the wilderness (Targ. Yer. to Ex. xx. 1); blesses Israel (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxiii. 8); battles for the people (Targ. Josh. iii. 7, x. 14, xxiii. 3). As in ruling over the destiny of man the Memra is the agent of God (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxvii. 16), so also is it in the creation of the earth (Isa. xlv. 12) and in the execution of justice (Targ. Yer. to Num. xxxiii. 4). So, in the future, shall the Memra be the comforter (Targ. Isa. lxvi. 13): "My Shekinah I shall put among you, My Memra shall be unto you for a redeeming deity, and you shall be unto My Name a holy people" (Targ. Yer. to Lev. xxii. 12). "My Memra shall be unto you like a good plowman who takes off the yoke from the shoulder of the oxen"; "the Memra will roar to gather the exiled" (Targ. Hos. xi. 5, 10). The Memra is "the witness" (Targ. Yer. xxix. 23); it will be to Israel like a father (l.c. xxxi. 9) and "will rejoice over them to do them good" (l.c. xxxii. 41). "In the Memra the redemption will be found" (Targ. Zech. xii. 5). "The holy Word" was the subject of the hymns of Job (Test. of Job, xii. 3, ed. Kohler).
    So who is “selective quoting”, invalidating their own argument, over and over and over again? I suggest you take a remedial reading and writing class and learn how to accurately research, quote, and cite sources.
    Who? Who is this Tracey guy, which took you a week to find, and why should anyone, with an IQ higher than room temperature, blindly believe anything he says, as you obviously do? I can quote hundreds of books by JW, LDS, WWCG, etc., etc., etc., do those unsupported, undocumented, cult opinions prove anything? They have as much validity and authority as your Tracey guy. The only Christians mentioned in the “Trinity-in the Zohar article are the Jews who converted to Christianity after reading the Zohar. You still refuse to read the first paragraph in the article.
    False, fallacy of equivocation, nowhere in the O.T. or the N.T. is the angel ever identified as יהוהYHWH”

    • Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
      31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,
      32 Saying, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
      Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.
    The passage does not say the angel spoke!

    • 33 Then said the Lord to him, Put off thy shoes from thy feet: for the place where thou standest is holy ground.
      34 I have seen, I have seen the affliction of my people which is in Egypt, and I have heard their groaning, and am come down to deliver them. And now come, I will send thee into Egypt.
      35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
    Note, this passage which you are misquoting says the angel appeared and the voice of the Lord came to Moses. It does not say the angel spoke! And God did send an angel but the verse does not say that the angel was called, God.

    You have fallen into the mindless cult trap of blindly following and parroting whatever anti-Christian nonsense your equally blind teachers/leaders spew out, without bothering to read the Bible or research for yourself. We could argue these verses back and forth forever but I have a better solution. What did Jesus say about this?

    • Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

      Lu 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
    Who does Jesus say spoke to Moses at the bush? “The God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And there is absolutely no mention of the angel. So you need to go back your guru and get a better, i.e. Biblical, argument!
    Irrelevant as is your misquote of Acts 12:7, later in this same post. Now without your favorite fallacious, out-of-context “proof text”, prove to me this theory of the “agency of God”, again, from the scriptures.
    ”. . .dozens of 'trinitarian' support sites.?” Irrelevant! The difference is, I read both Biblical languages, I check every reference, I research everything for myself, I have done this since I became a believer six months (+/-) before the six day war, and I quote and link to my sources, which include early church writings, other ancient sources, and language studies, by acknowledged Bible language authorities. Whereas you just make unsupported and undocumented assertions, for example re: the “word of God” and your blatant misquoting and twisting of Philp 2:6, below.
    Responses keyed to numbers in your post above. [1] False the Jewish Encyclopedia “Memra” article, which I posted, above, lists over 100 verses where, in the Targums (Hebrew, Targummim), “Memra”/”The Word” was substituted for the divine name יהוהYHWH.” [2] No proof/documentation and irrelevant. [3] Irrelevant and not a belief held by Trinitarians. Christians believe that Jesus is from everlasting to everlasting. He did not ”become” God at His birth or His baptism.
    Your “agency” reference is blatantly false, see Mk 12:6, Lk 20:37, above. No place in scripture is anyone or anything other than Jesus said to be “in the form of God!” The scripture clearly says “equal with God.” Not only do you not present any evidence or documentation to support your mangling and twisting of this verse, you are contradicting your earlier post about what this verse supposedly says.
     
  14. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Note, also in both cases you do not quote the verse, quite possibly, because you know that your twisted version is clearly contradicted by virtually every Bible version, in print. Where exactly in these verses does it say “agent of God endowed with God-like powers?”

    • (KJV) Philp 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
      7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

      (NIV) 6 Who, being in very nature {Or in the form of} God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
      7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature {Or the form} of a servant, being made in human likeness.

      (NAS) 6 who, although He {A} existed in the {B} form of God, {C} did not regard equality with God a thing to be {1} grasped, {1) I.e. utilized or asserted}
      7 but {1} {A} emptied Himself, taking the form of a {B} bond-servant, and {C} being made in the likeness of men. {1) I.e. laid aside His privileges}

      Robertson, “Word Pictures”
      ”{Being} (\huparchôn\). Rather, "existing," present active participle of \huparchô In the form of God (\en morphêi theou\). [Note, the same word used of God in Act 17:24, 29, OS] \Morphê\ means the essential attributes as shown in the form. In his preincarnate state Christ possessed the attributes of God and so appeared to those in heaven who saw him. Here is a clear statement by Paul of the deity of Christ. {A prize} (\harpagmon\). Predicate accusative with \hêgêsato Originally words in mos\ signified the act, not the result (ma\). The few examples of \harpagmos\ (Plutarch, etc.) allow it to be understood as equivalent to \harpagma\, like \baptismos\ and \baptisma That is to say Paul means a prize to be held on to rather than something to be won ("robbery"). {To be on an equality with God} (\to einai isa theoi\). Accusative articular infinitive object of \hêgêsato\, "the being equal with God" (associative instrumental case \theôi\ after \isa\). \Isa\ is adverbial use of neuter plural with \einai\ as in #Re 21:16.”

      Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is (\huparchôn\). Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; (Act 17:29)
    If you want to contradict Robertson, you need to bring at least 47 years of Greek scholarship to the table. And since you are implying that you are a more knowledgeable Greek scholar than any of the Bible translators, here is a pertinent passage in the original Greek. Please translate it and parse all the verbs, for us.

    oV en morfh qeou uparcwn ouc arpagmon hghsato to einai isa qew
    all eauton ekenwsen morfhn doulou labwn en omoiwmati anqrwpwn genomenoV

    -30-
     
  15. OldShepherd

    OldShepherd Zaqunraah

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    Where in scriptures, Genesis specifically, did Abraham rejoice? Commonly referred to as ROTFL.
    I called Kain's post "Hogwash!" A thing cannot be insulted. If you think that is childish maybe you better go back and delete those posts where you called me crazy, insane, and out of my mind, and other insults, then denied it.
    What does the scripture say? "Thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Now you can talk around and around in circles, proving you don't know what you are talking about, but that is clearly what the scriptures say. They were trying to stone Jesus for the second time, in the temple, because according to what they said, He was making Himself God.
    Same answer as before.
     
  16. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    Posted by someone about Phil 2:6: "he did not consider being God something to be grasped, rather, he made himself humble."

    Once again, a perfect example of someone taking what the Bible says and making it fit their opinions. The bible does not say He did not consider being God somthing to be grasped (even it did say this: would this not mean that He did not have to grasp it because it was already His?) It does, however, say that He did not consider equality with God something to be grasped. And... it does not say "who being in the form of God"... it says "who being in very nature God" All of these things fit in perfectly with the other verses mentioned in the Bible pertaining to God's sacrifice. He had to take the nature of man to become the sacrifice. (See later reference to Hebrews in next post) Here is a dialogue between edpobre and fieldsofwind. This is what God did... believe Him. Christ is God who became a man. They are not separate "minds", "individuals". They are one. And Christ, God in His love as described below, had to become subservient because that is what the sacrifice of real love for us required. (Remember God is love, Christ represents the very definition of love.)
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Posted by edpobre: "[Isaiah 37:16 says the Lord God CREATED heavens and earth. Isaiah 46:9 says there is NO other God besid Him. Isaiah 63:16 identifies the Father as the oinly one God. Isaiah 64:8 identifies the Father as rhe "potter" meaning the CREATOR. Malachi 2:10 identifies the Father as the ONLY creator.]"

    Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

    Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

    Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

    1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

    God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.
     
  17. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    Here are some verses pertaining directly to Christ being God.

    take care, and enjoy!


    1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

    8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

    9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

    16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

    17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)
     
  18. Kain

    Kain Varpatrol

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    Much you have said, yet nothing.

    Not one of your sources, or Greek 'professors' or anyone have found any evidence in the New Testament where there is a clear and distinct formulation of the doctrine of the trinity.

    Blow steam all you like with your twisted misquotes. The bible is clear on one thing, that God is one and alone. Not three persons disguised as one. The OT is very clear that the messiah is to be a man, not God. The New Testament is also clear that Jesus is the son of God due to his miraculous birth, he was begotten of God, less equal. The early church fathers were also under that opinion. The doctrine of the trinity can be traced over time as more and more Greek and gnostic philosophy infiltrated the church ranks.

    Whichever way you cut it, the doctrine of a trinity of co-equal gods in the form of one doesn't exist anywhere in the bible. The very verses you quote above say nothing about Jesus being God (except in the deceptive NIV).
     
  19. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

    God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

    However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

    Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

    (Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

    ... but as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.

    take care all... and go over those verses... after believing first

    FOW
     
  20. fieldsofwind

    fieldsofwind Well-Known Member

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    Posted by Kain to OldShepherd: "Blow steam all you like with your twisted misquotes. The bible is clear on one thing, that God is one and alone. Not three persons disguised as one. The OT is very clear that the messiah is to be a man, not God."

    Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect. I will post the verses for you below... take care

    1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

    2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

    3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

    7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

    8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

    9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

    10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

    11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

    12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

    13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

    14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

    15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

    16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

    17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)
     
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