Iglesia Ni Cristo Replies

[Kain]

During one of OldShepherds deceptions above, he posted selected posts from the Jewish Encyclopedia and came to false conclusions from them. He then went on to accuse me of doing the same.

In response, I'll tell anyone interested what I stated earlier. Go read the link yourself to discern the truth.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=Z&search=zohar

Here is the introduction of the Zohar from the article, emphasis mine:

A pseudepigraphic work which pretends to be a revelation from God communicated through R. Simeon ben Yoḥai to the latter's select disciples. Under the form of a commentary on the Pentateuch, written partly in Aramaic and partly in Hebrew, it contains a complete cabalistic theosophy, treating of the nature of God, the cosmogony and cosmology of the universe, the soul, sin, redemption, good, evil, etc. It first appeared in Spain in the thirteenth century, being made known through the agency of the cabalistic writer Moses ben Shem-Ṭob de Leon, who ascribed it to the miracle-working tanna Simeon ben Yoḥai.

Later in the article, it describes several inconsistancies and those who argued for/against them. Concludes that section by suggesting a Hindu origin for the work:

Not the Work of a Single Author or Period.

Had Moses de Leon, who was a talented writer and an able scholar, wished for mercenary purposes to forge a work in the name of Simeon ben Yoḥai, he would have been more careful in his statements and would certainly have employed the Hebrew language, first, because the tanna would have written in that language, and, second, because a work in Hebrew, being easier to understand, would have gained a far wider circle of readers, and consequently a larger number of purchasers, than would one written in a peculiar Aramaic dialect that was accessible to only a few. Were the pseudepigraphic "Sefer Yeẓirah," "Pirḳe de-Rabbi Eli'ezer," "Sefer Hekalot," "Sefer ha-Bahir," etc., any the less believed to be the works of those to whom they were attributed simply because they were written in plain Hebrew and not in Aramaic? But apart from all these considerations, the contents of the Zohar clearly indicate that the work is the production not of a single author or of a single period, but of many authors, periods, and civilizations; for it combines the most puzzling incongruities and irreconcilable contradictions with lofty ideas and conceptions which would do honor to a genius of modern times, and also mystic teachings of the Talmudic period with those of the Geonim and later Cabala. To determine the country in which the work originated and the time at which its teachings began to develop, it is necessary to ascertain where and when the Jews became intimately acquainted with the Hindu philosophy, which more than any other exercised an influence on the Zohar. As an instance of Hindu teachings in the Zohar may be quoted the following passage:

(Zohar, iii. 9b "In the book of Hamnuna the Elder we learn through some extended explanations that the earth turns upon itself in the form of a circle; that some are on top, the others below; that all creatures change in aspect, following the manner of each place, but keeping in the same position. But there are some countries on the earth which are lighted while others are in darkness; and there are countries in which there is constantly day or in which at least the night continues only some instants. . . . These secrets were made known to the men of the secret science, but not to the geographers"

That about tells it all.

And here, it's infulence on Christian mystisicm:

Influence on Christian Mysticism.

The enthusiasm felt for the Zohar was shared by many Christian scholars, such as Pico de Mirandola, Reuchlin, Ægidius of Viterbo, etc., all of whom believed that the book contained proofs of the truth of Christianity. They were led to this belief by the analogies existing between some of the teachings of the Zohar and certain of the Christian dogmas, as for instance the fall and redemption of man, and the dogma of the Trinity, which is expressed in the Zohar in the following terms: "The Ancient of Days has three heads. He reveals himself in three archetypes, all three forming but one. He is thus symbolized by the number Three. They are revealed in one another. [These are:] first, secret, hidden 'Wisdom'; above that the Holy Ancient One; and above Him the Unknowable One. None knows what He contains; He is above all conception. He is therefore called for man 'Non-Existing' ["'Ayin"]" (Zohar, iii. 288b). This and also the other doctrines of Christian tendency that are found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity; but the Christian scholars who were deluded by the similarity of these teachings to certain Christian dogmas deemed it their duty to propagate the Zohar. Shortly after the publication of the work (Mantua and Cremona, 1558) Joseph de Voisin translated extracts from it which deal with the soul. He was followed by many others, among whom was Knorr, Baron von Rosenroth, who rendered into Latin the introduction, the "Sifra di-Ẓeni'uta," the "Idra Rabbah," and the "Idra Zuṭa" ("Kabbala Denudata," Sulzbach, 1677).

The disastrous effects of the Shabbethai Ẓebi movement, which was greatly fostered by the obnoxious influences of the Zohar, damped the enthusiasm that had been felt for the book, and the representatives of Talmudic Judaism began to look upon it with suspicion. Especially was this the case when the Shabbethaian movement had degenerated into religious mysticism and had produced the anti-Talmudic sectaries who styled themselves "Zoharites," and who, under the leadership of Jacob Frank, finished by embracing Christianity. However, the Zohar is still held in great reverence by many Orthodox Jews, especially the Ḥasidim, who, under its influence, assign the first place in religion not to dogma and ritual, but to the sentiment and the emotion of faith.

I have to quote these long passages to undo OldShepherds deceptions. However, don't take my word for it, follow the link above and read the whole article.

 

[fieldsofwind]

and read the response to your thinking... you've yet to answer them...

Believe.

FOW

 

[fieldsofwind]

Heck... so you don't have to scroll back... I'll post them again. They are presents for you and edward.
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Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.
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Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

(Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

... but as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.
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Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect. I will post the verses for you below... take care

 

[fieldsofwind]

These verses will remain on every thread pertaining to who Christ is. They are very clear... if you just believe.






1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by Kain
During one of OldShepherds deceptions above, he posted selected posts from the Jewish Encyclopedia and came to false conclusions from them. He then went on to accuse me of doing the same.

In response, I'll tell anyone interested what I stated earlier. Go read the link yourself to discern the truth.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=Z&search=zohar

Here is the introduction of the Zohar from the article, emphasis mine:

Later in the article, it describes several inconsistancies and those who argued for/against them. Concludes that section by suggesting a Hindu origin for the work:

That about tells it all.

And here, it's infulence on Christian mystisicm:

I have to quote these long passages to undo OldShepherds deceptions. However, don't take my word for it, follow the link above and read the whole article.

Here is the second paragraph of the article which you carefully omitted and ignored, Kain. You are partially correct, this article discusses both sides of the issue on the Zohar, but consistently comes down on the side of its authenticity and once again I remind you that in the Jewish Encyclopedia Trinity article the Zohar is referenced without comment or discussion as to it being unreliable, etc. If, as you claim, the Zohar article “proves” it is unreliable, etc, then the Trinity article should have had some kind of disclaimer. There was none!

• Authenticity.
  The general opinion, however, was in favor of its authenticity, this view being held not only by the cabalists, for whom the book opened new paths in the field of mysticism, but also by eminent Talmudists. It was quoted by Todros Abulafia, by Menahem Recanati, and even by Isaac of Acco, in whose name the story of the confession of Moses de Leon's widow is related. Isaac evidently ignored the woman's alleged confession in favor of the testimony of Joseph ben Todros and of Jacob, a pupil of Moses de Leon, both of whom assured him on oath that the work was not written by Moses ("Sefer ha-Yuḥasin," l.c.). The only objection worthy of consideration by the believers in the authenticity of the Zohar was the lack of references to the work in Jewish literature; and to this they answered that Simeon ben Yohai did not commit his teachings to writing, but transmitted them orally to his disciples, who in turn confided them to their disciples, and these to their successors, until finally the doctrines were embodied in the Zohar. As to the references in the book to historical events of the post-Talmudic period, it was not deemed surprising that Simeon ben Yohai should have foretold future happenings.

Kain: Later in the article, it describes several inconsistancies and those who argued for/against them. Concludes that section by suggesting a Hindu origin for the work:

See my response above. Also many of those so-called discrepancies were simply prophecies. The last sentence is patently false. The article doesn’t say, imply, or suggest that the Zohar had a Hindu origin but that it contained some Hindu “influence.” Do you know the difference? And one (1) example is given, that the world was round and revolved on its own axis. What a terrible thing to suggest. We should just condemn the whole thing for that alone.

• 
  Hindu philosophy, which more than any other exercised an influence on the Zohar. As an instance of Hindu teachings in the Zohar may be quoted the following passage: (Zohar, iii. 9b).
  "In the book of Hamnuna the Elder we learn through some extended explanations that the earth turns upon itself in the form of a circle; that some are on top, the others below; that all creatures change in aspect, following the manner of each place, but keeping in the same position.

Kain: Not the Work of a Single Author or Period.

Irrelevant and immaterial! Neither is the T’nakh, the Old Testament.

Kain: This and also the other doctrines of Christian tendency that are found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity; but the Christian scholars who were deluded by the similarity of these teachings to certain Christian dogmas deemed it their duty to propagate the Zohar.

This is from your quote on Christian Influences, a paragraph discussing the Trinity in the Zohar. Note it supports my earlier posts proving that the Trinity originated in pre-Christian Judasim. "This [the Trinity] and also the other doctrines of Christian tendency that are found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity."

 

[Kain]

According to false trinitarian doctrine, God the Son who is God ascends to the right hand of God the Father who is God.

God besides God.

Either the trinitarians are wrong or the bible is lying.

Dt.32:39
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me."

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

The trinity doctrine being dead, from this we can draw one of two conclusions:

1. that Jesus himself was God, not another person of God. But other scripture disagrees with this concept as well.

2. that Jesus was the anoited of God (God doesn't require anoniting), the begotten son of God (God is not begotten), given extraordinary authority by God, his father, for the purpose of defeating evil, who upon completion of this task, will return all authority back to God.

These verses destroy both the trinity doctrine of 3 co-equal gods in one and the doctrine of monophysitism.

Jesus will return authority to God

1 Cor 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God's will be done, not Jesus's.

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.


The Father is greater than Jesus:

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus not considered as God, but as Lord Messiah.

1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God appoints Jesus the man as a vassel through whom He will do his works:

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Jesus admits he has a God.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Nothing ambiguous about these verses. Clear cut declarations of Jesus as a separate, distinct, appointed man whom the only God has chosen.

 

[Kain]

This is from your quote on Christian Influences, a paragraph discussing the Trinity in the Zohar. Note it supports my earlier posts proving that the Trinity originated in pre-Christian Judasim. "This [the Trinity] and also the other doctrines of Christian tendency that are found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity."

Okay, fine. Drawing a conclusion from the article, and all the relevent portions that you like, we find that the Christian trinity doctrine has roots in heretical Jewish sects under Hindu influence.

What a great discovery you have made. Sure sheds some light on the pagan origins of the trinity.

 

[fieldsofwind]

and dear kain... open your eyes to see. Not one of the verses you posted disagrees with the following post, and yet your interpretation completely disagrees with the numerous other verses applying to Christ as God. They are not separate minds... individuals... but God became separate when He humbled Himself and became flesh. Read the below... and the following posts. And yes... Christ (God who became flesh out of love) will become subject to the Father (God who remained in majesty because God is both magnificent and love... requiring the sacrifice) and God will be once again... all in all. Don't you see the picture here? Can you not understand that if God did not make that sacrifice then it all means nothing? Here... learn
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Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.
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Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

(Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

... but as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.
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Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect. I will post the verses for you below... take care

 

[fieldsofwind]

now read that... pick it apart if you like... show me the error through God's word... and you will be proven erroneous. The Spirit is within me, and I know who my Father is.

Here are the verses once again... The verses you post agree completely with the above post. However, the verses I post disagree completely with your post. That tells us something doesn't it.

Chew these apart...

1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

 

[fieldsofwind]

1. Names of Jesus

Immanuel, Emmanuel -- literally "God with us"
(Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:21-23)
The righteous Branch -- called "the LORD our righteousness"
(LORD = Yahweh) (Jeremiah 23:5,6)
Eternal Father (Isaiah 9:6)
Lord of glory -- 1 Cor 2:8

2. Jesus called God

"and the Word was God" (John 1:1, 1:14)
Note: compare with 1:18, which is also correctly translated as
"God," not "a God." These must be translated consistently.
"the only begotten God" (John 1:1 -- (the Greek word used is THEOS)
Jesus accepts Thomas' acclamation: "my Lord and my God" (John 20:2
God calls him "O God" (Hebrews 1:
Jesus' shed blood called God's blood (Acts 20:2
All the fullness of Deity in bodily form (Colossians 2:9)
"our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1)
Jesus is "the true God and eternal life" (1 John 5:20)
Jesus applies to Himself words praising Yahweh in Psalm 8:2 --- "Out
of the mouth of infants and nursing babes Thou hast prepared praise
for Thyself" (Matthew 21:16)

3. Jesus is worshipped

No other gods than Yahweh

There is no God other than Yahweh -- Deut 4:35
"See now that I, I am He, and there is no god besides Me" -- Deut 32:39
There is none like Yahweh, and no God besides Him -- 2 Samuel 7:22
Yahweh declares: "Before Me there was no God formed, and there
will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD; and there
is no savior besides Me." -- Isaiah 43: 10-11
"And there is no other God besides Me," -- Isaiah 45:5,21,22

Note that the Bible commands us to worship God alone:

First of the 10 Commandments -- Exodus 20:3-5
God is one; fear and worship Yahweh only -- Deuteronomy 6:4, 6:13-15;
Jesus quotes Deuteronomy 6:13 in Matthew 4:10:
"For it is written, `You shall worship the Lord your God
and serve Him only.'"
Yahweh of hosts is the one you should fear -- Isaiah 8:13-15

God will not give His glory to another (Isaiah 42:8, 48:11),
but He does give it to Christ (John 17:5)

Jesus worshipped by ...

... the wise men (Matthew 2:11)
... the disciples in the boat (Matthew 14:33)
... the women at the empty tomb (Matthew 28:10)
... the disciples at His ascension (Matthew 28:17)
(Note in the Great Commission that the "name" of the Father,
Son, and Holy Spirit is singular -- Matthew 28:19)
... the man born blind, who Jesus healed (John 9:3
... all God's angels (Hebrews 1:6)

Worship of God's angelic messengers prohibited -- Rev 19:10, 22:8,9
Herod killed because he didn't give God the glory -- Acts 2:20-23

4. Jesus/God everlasting

Note that any created being must have been created at some time;
that is, there was a time when it did not exist. Therefore, to
exist from eternity past is a mark of divinity.

Jesus:
His goings forth from the days of eternity -- Micah 5:2
Called "everlasting Father" -- Isaiah 9:6
The Alpha and the Omega -- Rev 1:8, 22:13
The first and the last -- Rev 1:17, 22:13
The beginning and the end" -- Rev 22:13

Yahweh:
"I, the LORD, am the first, and with the last. I am He."
-- Isaiah 41:4
"I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides Me"
-- Isaiah 44:6
"I am He, I am the first, I am also the last." -- Isaiah 48:12
God enthroned: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and
the end" -- Rev 21:5-7

Note: Although Jesus is from all eternity, His earthly body is not
-- Hebrews 10:5-10

5. Jesus/God the creator

God:

Yahweh created man -- Gen 2:7
Yahweh of hosts created heaven and earth -- Isaiah 37:16
Note: This verse says He is the God alone, of all the kingdoms
The Almighty gives me life -- Job 33:4
Yahweh created the heavens, all their host -- Psalm 33:6-9
The creator is the Everlasting God, Yahweh -- Isaiah 40:28
Yahweh alone is the maker of all things; He stretched out the heavens
by Himself, and spread out the earth all alone -- Isaiah 44:24
Yahweh, Who created the heavens: "He is the God who formed the earth,"
and says "I am the LORD, and there is none else." -- Isaiah 45:18-22
One God created us -- Malachi 2:10
God enthroned: "For Thou didst create all things, and because of Thy
will they existed and were created." -- Rev 4:11

Jesus:

All things that were created were created through Christ -- John 1:3
The world was made through Him -- John 1:10
All things created by Him and for Him -- Colossians 1:15-17
-- including everything in the heavens and earth, visible and
invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities
The heavens and earth are the work of His hands -- Heb 1:10-12
Note: This passage describes the Son in the words of Psalm 102:25-27,
which refer to Yahweh.

6. Jesus/God the King (of Kings)

Jesus, the Anointed King -- Psalm 2:4-12
He will reign forever on David's throne and over his kingdom -- Isaiah 9:7
Called the righteous Branch, reigns as king -- Jeremiah 23:5,6
The Son of Man given a kingdom, glory, everlasting dominion.
He is served by all peoples and nations. -- Daniel 7:14
Zion/Jerusalem's king coming on a donkey - Zechariah 9:9, Matthew 21:5
Gabriel announces that Jesus will reign over Israel forever -- Luke 1:32,33
Jesus is king -- Matthew 25:34,40, Luke 19:38
Jesus is the King of Israel -- John 1:49,50
Jesus confesses that He is the King of the Jews
-- Luke 23:3, John 18:37, John 19:21
Jesus is "the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and
Lord of lords" -- 1 Tim 6:15
Jesus, the Lamb, is "Lord of lords and King of kings" -- Rev 17:14
Jesus has written on His robe and on His thigh, "king of kings and
lord of lords" -- Rev 19:16

Yahweh is Lord of lords -- Deut 10:17
The LORD Most High is King over all the earth -- Psalm 47:2
Yahweh of hosts is the King, Whom Isaiah saw -- Isaiah 6:5
Note: The reference in John 12:41 appears to identify this as Christ
Yahweh of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem -- Isaiah 24:23
Yahweh is King of Israel -- Isaiah 43:15, 44:6
Yahweh is the everlasting King -- Jeremiah 10:10
Yahweh will be king over all the earth -- Zechariah 14:9

7. Jesus/God the Judge

God:
"For God will bring every act to judgment" -- Ecclesiastes 12:14
The day of judgment is called the day of Yahweh -- Joel 2:31-3:2
(See also Isaiah 2:12, 13:9-13, Jeremiah 46:10, 2 Peter 3:7-10)
God judges: 2 Peter 2:4-11

Jesus:

Jesus enthroned in glory, judges the nations -- Matthew 25:31-46
"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all
judgment to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son, even
as they honor the Father." -- John 5:22-30
We must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ -- 2 Cor 5:10
Jesus judges -- 2 Thess 1:7-12

8. Jesus/God our Savior/Redeemer

God:

The Most High God is Rock and Redeemer -- Psalm 78:34,35
"They forgot God their Savior" -- Psalm 106:21
Yahweh is Savior -- Isaiah 43:3-11
Note verse 11: "I, even I, am the LORD; and there is no savior
besides Me."
Yahweh: "And there is no other God besides Me, a righteous God
and a Savior; There is none except Me." -- Isaiah 45:21
Our Redeemer is the LORD of hosts -- Isaiah 44:6, 47:4, 55:8
Yahweh is your Savior -- Isaiah 49:26
Maker, Yahweh of hosts, Redeemer, Holy One, called God of all the earth
-- Isaiah 54:5
Mary rejoices in "God my Savior" -- Luke 1:47
Our hope is fixed on "the living God, who is the Savior of all men"
-- 1 Tim 4:10 (See also 1 Tim 1:1-3 -- "Jesus our hope")
Glory "to the only God our Savior" -- Jude 1:25

Jesus:

Christ proclaimed as Savior by the angels -- Luke 2:10,11
Testified of as Savior of the world -- John 4:40-42
We "wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ" -- Philippians 3:20
Sent to be the Savior of the world -- 1 John 4:14
Bore our sins in His body on the cross...that we may return to
the Shepherd and Guardian of our souls -- 1 Peter 2:24-25
(Listed above: 2 Peter 1:1 -- "our God and Savior, Jesus Christ")

"God our Savior...Christ Jesus our Savior" -- Titus 1:1-4
"God our Savior...our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus; who gave
himself for us that he might redeem us from every lawless deed
and purify for himself a people for his own possession, zealous
for good deeds." -- Titus 2:10-14

9. Jesus/God the Rock

God:

Yahweh is the Rock -- Deut 32:1-4
Yahweh is the only God, and the only Rock -- 2 Samuel 22:32,
Isaiah 44:8
God is my rock -- Psalm 18:2, 31:3, 78:34-35
The rock of my salvation -- Psalm 89:26
Yahweh of hosts is sanctuary and rock to stumble over -- Isaiah 8:13-15
God is our salvation and the rock of our refuge -- Isaiah 17:10
In Yahweh we have an everlasting Rock -- Isaiah 26:4


Jesus:

Jesus is the cornerstone -- Isaiah 28:16, Acts 4:10,11, Ephesians 2:20
Christ was the spiritual rock which followed the Israelites
-- 1 Cor 10:4
Jesus is both the cornerstone and the rock to stumble over
-- 1 Peter 2:4-8. Note the reference to Isaiah 8:14,
which refers to Yahweh, the rock to stumble over.

10. Who raised Christ?

God:

Christ raised from the dead by the glory of the Father -- Romans 6:4
God the Father raised Jesus from the dead -- Galations 1:1

Jesus:
"Destroy this temple [His body, verse 2:21], and in three days
I will raise it up." -- John 2:19

"I lay down My life that I may take it again. No one has taken it
away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have
authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again.
This commandment I received from My Father." -- John 10:17-18

12. Whose witnesses?

Yahweh:
"You are My witnesses" -- Isaiah 43:10, 44:8
Jesus:
"you shall be My witnesses" -- Acts 1:8


__________________________________________________________________________

And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the
throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them
was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

saying with a loud voice,

"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom and might
and honor and glory and blessing."

And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and
under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard
saying,

"To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb,
Be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever."

And the four living creatures kept saying, "Amen." And the elders
fell down and worshipped.

--Revelation 5:11-14

 

[fieldsofwind]

and furthermore... God will not give His glory to another... yet whom is the Lord of Glory? Who? Christ.

Read over Hebrews one... to see about who Christ is... and then skip on to Chapter 9 to see who it was that had to die in order for the covenant to mean anything. It was the one who made it. (the verses are listed in the first list)

take care all and believe

FOW

 

[OldShepherd]

Posted by Kain
According to false trinitarian doctrine, God the Son who is God ascends to the right hand of God the Father who is God.

God besides God.

Either the trinitarians are wrong or the bible is lying.

Typical unthinking, blind repitition of anti-Christian nonsense, just like your adolescent attempts to twist even the Jewish Encyclopedia to support your hate filled diatribe. Every anti-Trini in the world thinks every single verse they quote out-of-context “utterly destroys” the Trinity doctrine. The KJV Bible has 31,172 verses, you quoted how many, 8-10? What influence or affect do those other 31,160+ verse have on this issue? You don’t care. You have your handful of “proof texts” and your are happy repeating whatever your guru told you, because you couldn’t respond to what has been posted.

Dt.32:39
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me."
Isa 44:8, , Isa 45:5, Isa 45:21, Isa 44:6

The trinity doctrine being dead, from this we can draw one of two conclusions:

1. that Jesus himself was God, not another person of God. But other scripture disagrees with this concept as well.

2. that Jesus was the anoited of God (God doesn't require anoniting), the begotten son of God (God is not begotten), given extraordinary authority by God, his father, for the purpose of defeating evil, who upon completion of this task, will return all authority back to God.

These verses destroy both the trinity doctrine of 3 co-equal gods in one and the doctrine of monophysitism.

LOL every anti-Trini in the world thinks they can quote 1-2 verses, regurgitate the same old refuted argument and they are a Bible expert and somehow destroyed the doctrine of the Trinity.

Monophysitism, huh? Irrelevant to any discussion around here. The cited scriptures do not prove your argument. Christians worship one God!

Kain: Jesus will return authority to God

1 Cor 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God's will be done, not Jesus's.

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

The Father is greater than Jesus:

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

The same ol’, same ol’, anti-Trini nonsense. You posted your 3-4 verses, now how about putting them in context of the other 31,160+ verses.

Such as Philip 2:6, here. Jesus existed in the form of God, equal to God, but humbled Himself.

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=384289&highlight=philippians#post384289

http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=351917&highlight=philippians#post351917

Kain: Jesus not considered as God, but as Lord Messiah.

1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God appoints Jesus the man as a vassel through whom He will do his works:

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Jesus admits he has a God.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Nothing ambiguous about these verses. Clear cut declarations of Jesus as a separate, distinct, appointed man whom the only God has chosen.

Jesus said, “Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:” and Hebrews 1:8,9, very clearly calls the Son, God, twice. The only thing which will prove Hebrews, chapter one, wrong, is a knowledgeable exegesis of the original languages, Not quoting some other verse.

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he (God) saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

• Dialogue of Justin Philosopher and Martyr, with Trypho, a Jew [a.d. 110-165.]
  
  But I shall remind you of what the passage says, in order that you may recognise even from this very [place] that God gives glory to His Christ alone. And I shall take up some short passages, sirs, those which are in connection with what has been said by Trypho, and those which are also joined on in consecutive order. For I will not repeat those of another section, but those which are joined together in one. Do you also give me your attention. [The words] are these: `Thus saith the Lord, the God that created the heavens, and made249 them fast, that established the earth, and that which is in it; and gave breath to the people upon it, and spirit to them who walk therein: I the Lord God have called Thee in righteousness, and will hold Thine hand, and will strengthen Thee; and I have given Thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles, to open the eyes of the blind, to bring out them that are bound from the chains, and those who sit in darkness from the prison-house. I am the Lord God; this is my name: my glory will I not give to another, nor my virtues to graven images. Behold, the former things are come to pass; new things which I announce, and before they are announced they are made manifest to you. Sing unto the Lord a new song: His sovereignty [is] from the end of the earth. [Sing], ye who descend into the sea, and continually sail250 [on it]; ye islands, and inhabitants thereof. Rejoice, O wilderness, and the villages thereof, and the houses; and the inhabitants of Cedar shall rejoice, and the inhabitants of the rock shall cry aloud from the top of the mountains: they shall give glory to God; they shall publish His virtues among the islands. The Lord God of hosts shall go forth, He shall destroy war utterly, He shall stir up zeal, and He shall cry aloud to the enemies with strength.' "251 And when I repeated this, I said to them, "Have you perceived, my friends, that God says He will give Him whom He has established as a light of the Gentiles, glory, and to no other; and not, as Trypho said, that God was retaining the glory to Himself? "
  
  http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-48.htm#P4623_980539

John, writing in Revelation, undeniably supported by the most accurate manuscripts, quotes both God and Jesus saying ”I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.” John wrote what he saw and heard, what Jesus and the angel told him to write, he knew who God was and who Jesus was.

God said in Isaiah that He is the first and the last and before Him, after Him, and beside Him there is no God. Jesus said He is the first and last. How many first and last are there?

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Jesus is set down with the Father in His (the Father’s) throne.

Revelation 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

But there is only one, on the one throne.

Revelation 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

God sits on the one throne.

Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne.

But the lamb is also in the midst of the one throne.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,

One sits on the one throne.

Rev 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

But the one throne is the throne of God and the lamb.

 

[OldShepherd]

Posted by Kain
This is from your quote on Christian Influences, a paragraph discussing the Trinity in the Zohar. Note it supports my earlier posts proving that the Trinity originated in pre-Christian Judasim. "This [the Trinity] and also the other doctrines of Christian tendency that are found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity."

Okay, fine. Drawing a conclusion from the article, and all the relevent portions that you like, we find that the Christian trinity doctrine has roots in heretical Jewish sects under Hindu influence.

What a great discovery you have made. Sure sheds some light on the pagan origins of the trinity.

”Heretical sects under Hindu influence?” You really ought to read what you are posting. Here is the last sentence, quoted from the JE, in your previous post. So which is it, Kain? “Heretical sect - Pagan origins” or “still held in great reverence by many Orthodox Jews.” Your previous post did not say “pagan origins” but “some Hindu influence”, and the only example given was that “the earth was round and rotated on its own axis.”

• 
  "However, the Zohar is still held in great reverence by many Orthodox Jews, especially the khasidim, who, under its influence, assign the first place in religion not to dogma and ritual, but to the sentiment and the emotion of faith."

Once again the only Trinity, outside of Christianity, is in the Zohar, a Jewish book, which is still “held in great reverence by many Orthodox Jews, especially the khasidim.”

• 
  the dogma of the Trinity, which is expressed in the Zohar in the following terms: "The Ancient of Days has three heads. He reveals himself in three archetypes, all three forming but one. He is thus symbolized by the number Three. They are revealed in one another. [These are:] first, secret, hidden 'Wisdom'; above that the Holy Ancient One; and above Him the Unknowable One. None knows what He contains; He is above all conception. He is therefore called for man 'Non-Existing' ["'Ayin"]" (Zohar, iii. 288b). This [i.e. the Trinity] and also the other doctrines of Christian tendency that are found in the Zohar are now known to be much older than Christianity;

Kain, you can continue posting self contradictory, misquoted, quoted out-of-context, posts if you want to. If you think you are hurting me you are dead wrong. I have been debating cults, like yours, for probably 2-3 decades before you were born. Posting this kind of nonsense, you are the one who will look like an uninformed fool to everyone who reads these forums.

 

[Kain]

Irrelevant trinitarian nonscence! All your adolescent twisting of scripture won't magically bring a trinity into it.

said, “Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:”

That's right, you should listen to him. He said one Lord. Not three. If Jesus is indeed God, then he is the one God, not a 2nd person of three. That would lend support for Monophysitism, which can also be refuted.

The writers of the NT had many opportunities to clearly state a trinity concept. They did not.

All those verses you feebly post to present your pagan trinity don't show even a hint of co-equal trinity of God in one. If you had any abililty of reading comprehensions, you would see that.

Jesus was an agent of God, begotten and appointed with power. The bible clearly states this. Your twisting somehow makes him a 2nd person. Nonesence!


According to false trinitarian doctrine, God the Son who is God ascends to the right hand of God the Father who is God.

God besides God.

Either the trinitarians are wrong or the bible is lying.

Dt.32:39
"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me."

Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared [it]? ye [are] even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, [there is] no God; I know not [any].

Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

Isa 45:21 Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? [who] hath told it from that time? [have] not I the LORD? and [there is] no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; [there is] none beside me.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God.

The trinity doctrine being dead, from this we can draw one of two conclusions:

1. that Jesus himself was God, not another person of God. But other scripture disagrees with this concept as well.

2. that Jesus was the anoited of God (God doesn't require anoniting), the begotten son of God (God is not begotten), given extraordinary authority by God, his father, for the purpose of defeating evil, who upon completion of this task, will return all authority back to God.

These verses destroy both the trinity doctrine of co-equal gods in one and the doctrine of monophysitism.

Jesus will return authority to God

1 Cor 15:28
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God's will be done, not Jesus's.

Luke 22:42
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.


The Father is greater than Jesus:

John 14:28
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Jesus not considered as God, but as Lord Messiah.

1 Cor 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God appoints Jesus the man as a vassel through whom He will do his works:

Acts 2:22
Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Jesus admits he has a God.

John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.


Nothing ambiguous about these verses. Clear cut declarations of Jesus as a separate, distinct, appointed man whom the only God has chosen.



If you want to get into a proper conversation, drop your self-righteous superior attitude, drop your insulting tone and behave like a proper Christian. Then maybe we can talk.
Turn your other cheek and bless those who curse you. I'm still under the "an eye for an eye" system. Are you also? Sure seems that way.

 

[fieldsofwind]

Once again... read it this time... all of it.




and dear kain... open your eyes to see. Not one of the verses you posted disagrees with the following post, and yet your interpretation completely disagrees with the numerous other verses applying to Christ as God. They are not separate minds... individuals... but God became separate when He humbled Himself and became flesh. Read the below... and the following posts. And yes... Christ (God who became flesh out of love) will become subject to the Father (God who remained in majesty because God is both magnificent and love... requiring the sacrifice) and God will be once again... all in all. Don't you see the picture here? Can you not understand that if God did not make that sacrifice then it all means nothing? Here... learn
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Yes ed... we all know that there is only one God... and Christ is the very same God who became flesh. When He became flesh ed... He had to make Himself like a man... (Phil 2 clearly explains that Christ made HIMSELF nothing... no one else did this for Him). This is why you see Christ as being subservient to the Father. It is also why you see Christ as being addressed as God throughout the word of God. God was always Christ in that Christ is God in His love. God is always love. (Hebrews Ch 9 talks all about how the sacrifice was necessary, and had to be made by the one who made the covenant in the first place--God.) Christ represents love in every way that is described throughout the Bible. All of love's characteristics are fulfilled in Christ. However, God can not be subservient to death... He cannot become sin. This is why God in His love became flesh, which enabled Him to become our sin. This is where Christ and the Father, although they are one, separate (Remember, Christ says that He comes from the Father.) God in His love, (Christ), did not consider it necessary to remain God in His glory. Therefore God in His love separated Himself from God in His glory... because love had to make a sacrifice. (Notice the direct similarity with Phil 2:5-11) These things fit in perfectly with Hebrews chapeter one where God is speaking of Christ and calling Him God... saying that "today I have become your Father." Christ is the Word of John 1:1. He is not an "idea/logos" of God's put into a man... He is exactly as the Bible says... the Word was God... the Word became flesh. One of Christ's titles in Revelation is the "Word of God". Notice once again ed.. that nothing in these words isn't already in the Bible... everything here is taken from Love as mentioned by Christ and in 1 Cor 13... from Phil 2... and from Hebrews 1 and 9.

Posted by edpobre: "Apostle Paul identifies the Father as theONLY creator (1 Cor. 8:6)."

Lets see what is actually says ed shall we?

1 Cor. 8:6--yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.---- notice that nowhere here do the words "ONlY creator" appear. Not only do these verses indicate exactly what was said above in that Christ became subservient, but they also indicate the principle of God in His love being Christ. Through Christ all things were created, and through Christ we live. Simple question ed... why did God create the world? I believe the Bible indicates that it was for a love relationship with us. From God's power/glory/majesty we have the power for creation... through God's love we have the reason for creation.

God is Christ ed... Christ is God who became flesh for us through love. You are wrong, and everything you say is forced... I use nothing but what is already written by the breath of God.
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Pertaining to Phil 2:6--

God becoming like man... amazing! And doing this to enable Him to become our sacrifice. The very punishment that was given, He Himself underwent.

However, God in His majesty cannot become sin. Sin cannot enter His Domain. God in His glroy had to turn His back on Himself in the flesh, as a man... as sin... out of love.

Phil describes Christ... His form after becoming flesh. He was God...

(Remember, God Almighty in His majesty is always Christ in that Christ is God in His love... however, God through His love [Christ] had to give up being Himself in all of His glory to be able to become our sacrifice)

... but as described in the parenthesis, He had to give up being Himself in all of His power/glory/majesty/words cannot describe/etc. However, He was still in very nature God (or in the "form" of) when He became flesh. It is just the best way that the words we have can describe what happened. God out of His love for us did not consider staying in a state equal with Himself in His own majesty/glory/etc something that He needed to hold on to... ("to be grasped")...(He didn't need to, it was His already)... and He in turn made Himself nothing, through Love, to become our sacrifice... (I know this has been said again and again... but it is so important.) This is who Christ is... and it is completely supported by every scripture that anyone here can bring to the table.
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Yes... God is one... who became flesh... He is also Spirit... not three different individuals... and yes He did have to take on the nature of man. He did indeed become the Son of God... (read Hebrews chapter one... "today I have become your Father")... and furthermore... Hebrews is very clear that the one who made the covenant in the first place is the one who had to die to put it into effect. I will post the verses for you below... take care

 

[fieldsofwind]

now read that... pick it apart if you like... show me the error through God's word... and you will be proven erroneous. The Spirit is within me, and I know who my Father is.

Here are the verses once again... The verses you post agree completely with the above post. However, the verses I post disagree completely with your post. That tells us something doesn't it.

Chew these apart...

1) 1 Corinthians 2:8-- None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

2) (John 14:5-10) Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work."

3) (John 1:1-5, 14) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it... The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

4) (Revelation 19:13) He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

5) (Phil 2:5-10) Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in APPEARANCE as a man, he HUMBLED HIMSELF and BECAME obedient to death--even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, (Reminder: God will not give His glory to another... He is the LORD and Him alone), that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

6) (Rev 19:16) On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. (Isaiah 42:8--I am the LORD: that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols.)

7) (Hebrews 9:14) How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:16-17) In the case of a will, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while THE ONE WHO MADE IT is living. (Did God not make the covenant? These verses are very clear as to who had to die)

8) Hebrews 1:5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son: today I have become your Father.” Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.” Hebrews 1:10 He also says, “In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the work of your hands.” (Notice at the beginning of this God says “TODAY… I have become your Father… indicating that He wasn’t always… while Christ says many times that He is the Beginning and the End… indicating the claim I AM)

9) Revelation 22:13—(Jesus speaking) “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

10) Colossians 2:9—For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form

11) Titus 2:13—While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ

12) John 20:28—Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

13) John 18:3-6—So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons. Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, “Who is it you want?” “Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “I am he,” Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) When Jesus said, “I am he,” they drew back and fell to the ground.

14) Revelation 5:11-14--Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" THen I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever! The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. ------- Matthew 4:10--Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."

15) Acts 3:15--You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. (Who is the author of life?)

16) We recieved the Spirit of God correct? (Joel 2:28) (2 Cor 1:21-22--Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a desposit, guaranteeing what is to come.) Then how is it that God's word also says that God sent the Spirit of Christ into us... unless Christ's Spirit is the Spirit of God? There are not two different Spirits within me, but one! Galatians 4:6--Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, "Abba, Father."

17) Titus 2:13--while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (notice that it says Christ was purifying a people for his very own... "purify for himself"... sounds like this is what God was doing doesn't it... indicates, once again, that they are one in the same)

 

[Kain]

I will no longer post in this thread.

Best regards to all with whom I've had pleasant conversation. Yes, even you, OldShepherd.




Edited for bordering on breaking Rule 7 (no public disagreement with staff).

 

[fieldsofwind]

welp... you saw the truth... best regards to you as well.

take care

FOW

 

[FluviusNeckar]

The Iglesia Ni Cristo is not the Church of Christ, at least in universal sense and certainly not in the sense of the local movement here in the English speaking countries.

The Iglesia Ni Cristo follows the formula that the Moonies and Mohammed follow---Jesus failed to establish a financial and political foundation for the Kingdom so we'll do it for Him.

 

[Evangelion]

Sounds like America's "Christian Right"!