Iglesia Ni Cristo Replies

[edpobre]

This thread is open to anyone who has any question regarding the beliefs and practices of the Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ) of which I am a member.

Among others: We believe that Jesus is a MAN - not God. We believe that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine. We believe that faith without works is dead. We believe that man is justified by works and not by faith only. We believe that he who endures until the end will be saved. We believe that baptism into the Iglesia Ni Cristo is necessary for salvation. We believe that only a messenger sent from God can preach the true gospel of salvation. We believe that only the Iglesia Ni Cristo has a messenger sent from God. We believe that in order to maintain unity in the body of Christ, members  must be submissive to the Administration of the church. We believe that the body of Christ must be of the same mind and judgment. We believe that the Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ in these last days. We believe that it is the Iglesia Ni Cristo that Christ purchased with his own blood. We believe that Christ gave his life for the Iglesia Ni Cristo. We believe that Christ is the savior of the Iglesia Ni Cristo. We believe that there is no salvation outside the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

Ed

 

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by edpobre
This thread is open to anyone who has any question regarding the beliefs and practices of the Iglesia Ni Cristo (Church of Christ) of which I am a member.

Among others: We believe that Jesus is a MAN - not God. We believe that the Trinity is a man-made doctrine. We believe that faith without works is dead. We believe that man is justified by works and not by faith only. We believe that he who endures until the end will be saved. We believe that baptism into the Iglesia Ni Cristo is necessary for salvation. We believe that only a messenger sent from God can preach the true gospel of salvation. We believe that only the Iglesia Ni Cristo has a messenger sent from God. We believe that in order to maintain unity in the body of Christ, members  must be submissive to the Administration of the church. We believe that the body of Christ must be of the same mind and judgment. We believe that the Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ in these last days. We believe that it is the Iglesia Ni Cristo that Christ purchased with his own blood. We believe that Christ gave his life for the Iglesia Ni Cristo. We believe that Christ is the savior of the Iglesia Ni Cristo. We believe that there is no salvation outside the Iglesia Ni Cristo.

Ed

 

Why do you believe that only you have heard the messenger (assuming there has been only one) sent from God?

Also, do you realise how small the Church of Christ is compared to the population of Earth? Why should you be believed to be the holders of the truth over any other small group?

What evidence do you have?

Also, what are your beliefs regarding Hell?

 

[edpobre]

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<TD vAlign=top>Originally posted by Phoenix at "Are Trinitarians Christians?" Thread

Very well Ed,

Lets start here:

The pamphlet ends with this note Dear reader, it is, therefore, Gods command that we all should enter the church of Christ or Iglesia ni Cristo , in Philippine, if we want to enter the kingdom of heaven to enjoy eternal life."

What of the apostles did they enter this church, was there even a church in ancient times in the Philippines? Obviously not.

During the time of the apostles, the Christians were members of the Church of Christ which was of course in the Hebrew or Greek dialect. After all the apostles died, the "falling away" that apostle Paul foretold occured and the Church of Christ was replaced by the Catholic Church.&nbsp;The Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ that re-emerged at a place and time designated by God in fulfillment of prophecy.&nbsp;

In the same pamphlet it says

"To be certain of salvation, every member of the church of Christ must obey the doctrines he heard and received all the days of his life, "For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life" (Prov.6:23)

&nbsp;Obey always is commendable but hardly realistic.

To members of the Iglesia Ni Cristo, obedience to the commandments of God is realistic and not burdensome.

INC teaches that membership in their organization plus complete submission to the Executive Minister and the rest of the Church administration is the only way to be saved:

<B>"Each member ... should submit himself to the Administration of the Church in order to be saved."(PASUGO, January 1976, p. 9)

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The following quotes confirm the INC requirement of total submission by all members.

"Unity in the Iglesia Ni Cristo ... transcends and encompasses all aspects of the life of an Iglesia Ni Cristo......(PASUGO, January 1976, p. 5)

<B>"For opposing the Administration of the Church is tantamount to opposing not only Christ but also God."(PASUGO, January 1976, p. 190</B>

"So we should therefore demonstrate complete submission, obedience and loyalty to the Administration..." (PASUGO, January 1976, p.1

Submission to the authority of the Administration is a COMMAND&nbsp;from God. Apostle Paul wrote: "Obey those who rule over you, and be SUBMISSIVE, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you" (Hebrew 13:17).

It is only through SUBMISSION to the authority of the Administration that complete UNITY is attained and maintained.

Ed

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[Sean R. Sherman]

.

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Sean R. Sherman

Im sorry but the apostles believed that Jesus was God.
(1 john 2:1)My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
This is all I'll say for the Truth shall stand, It will defend it's self, All riteiousness shall be fullfilled, The will of God will come to be. [

Sean,

Jesus said his doctrine is NOT his but God's who SENT him (John 7:16). Thus, whatever Jesus TAUGHT came from God.

Jesus TAUGHT that he is a MAN (John 8:40). Jesus also TAUGHT that the FATHER (alone) is the ONLY trueGod (John 17:3).

In contrast, only Thomas was the apostle who said categorically that Jesus is HIS God. Apostle Peter TAUGHT&nbsp;that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 2:22) and HAS a God and Father (1 Peter 1:3). Apostle Paul TAUGHT that Jesus is a MAN (Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5) and for THEM (Christians), there is ONLY ONE God, the Father (1 Cor. 8:6).

Are you aware that anyone who does NOT stay in the teching or doctrine of Christ does NOT have God?&nbsp; Are you aware that anyone who does NOT believe Jesus isCONDEMNED already? Think about it.

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by David Gould

Why do you believe that only you have heard the messenger (assuming there has been only one) sent from God?

Most&nbsp;churches trace their origin from what they call "apostolic succession" which actually translates to what they call "early &nbsp;Church Fathers" who are NONE other than those who "fell away" (2 Thes. 2:3) or "turned away from the TRUE faith."

Others, like the Mormons and the Seventh-Day Adventists, trace their origin to people whom they call prophets who had visions in their dream and heard God call them to start these religions.

The Bible teaches that a "fellow-servant" and brother of Christ HAS the "testimony of Jesus" which is the "SPIRIT of prophecy" (Rev. 19:10).

People interpret this to mean that messengers of God are able to prophesy. Hence, we see the rise of religions led by so-called "prophets"&nbsp; who predict future events like Ellen White of the SDA and Russel of the JW.

On the other hand, the messenger that God commissioned to RE-ACTIVATE the Church of Christ in these last days has the "testimony of Jesus" which is the "SPIRIT of prophecy." Like Jesus, John and Paul who are all messengers SENT by God, this last messenger is BACKED up by prophecies regarding him, written in the Bible.

No, this messenger does NOT prophesy or predict future events. What "spirit of prophecy" means is that God's commissioning of him is EVIDENCED by prophecies about "his MISSION" written in the Bible.

That's the reason we are sure that the church I belong to is the ONLY church in these last days that has a messenger SENT by God. Anyone can check whether this is true or not by testing his doctrines. "He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but he who seeks the glory of the One who SENT him is TRUE, and no unrighteousness is in him" (John 7:18).

Also, do you realise how small the Church of Christ is compared to the population of Earth? Why should you be believed to be the holders of the truth over any other small group?

What evidence do you have?

Israel was NOT the biggest of nations, yet God chose Israel as His nation. Judah ws a small town, but God chose to bring the savior from there. Jesus started he Church of Christ with only 12 of his apostles.

The Bible teaches that FAITH comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God (Rom. 10:17).&nbsp; Thus, the only way to TEST what we believe in is to go through a series of Bible studies where Scripture and various references can be shown.

Also, what are your beliefs regarding Hell?

Hell is the "lake of fire and brimstone" where anyone whose name is NOT written in the book of life will be thrown. This is the second death&nbsp;(Rev. 20:15, 14).

Ed

 

[Phoenix]

Thank you for starting this thread Ed,

The Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ that re-emerged at a place and time designated by God in fulfillment of prophecy

Believe it or not i can deal with people&nbsp; not accepting that Jesus is God. That's a difficult thing to comprehend and your use of Scripture against is evident of that and not unlike any of the arguments i see on different boards.

That aside,

Could you explain how it is that the true church of Christ re-emerged in the fulfillment of Prophecy with your messenger,
I'm sorry i dont see his name, &nbsp;Felix M ?

 

[Future Man]

Do you believe Jesus Christ pre-existed prior to His birth from Mary?

God bless--AV

 

[Kain]

"We believe that the Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ in these last days. "

Hasn't it been "these last days" for 2000 years now?
It seems to me, every denomiation thinks they have all the answers, all expect submission to their particular authorities. But few claim to have their very own prophet. Those that do often end in tragedy. You would do well to remember that.

 

[BigEd]

As this post does not fit in apologetics. Also it is not Christian as defined by rule 6 and the Nicene Creed. This is being moved to spirituality.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Phoenix

Thank you for starting this thread Ed,

The Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ that re-emerged at a place and time designated by God in fulfillment of prophecy.

Believe it or not i can deal with people&nbsp; not accepting that Jesus is God. That's a difficult thing to comprehend and your use of Scripture against is evident of that and not unlike any of the arguments i see on different boards.

That aside,

Could you explain how it is that the true church of Christ re-emerged in the fulfillment of Prophecy with your messenger,
I'm sorry i dont see his name, &nbsp;Felix M ?

&nbsp;

Hi Phoenix,

Of course you don't see the name Felix Manalo just as much as you don't see the name John the Baptist, Paul and Jesus mentioned in the Bible. Otherwise, every child&nbsp;born AFTER the&nbsp;Old Testsment&nbsp;was written would be called by these names.

However, just like John, Paul and Jesus who KNEW exactly what prophecy pertained to them, God's last messenger also KNEW exactly what prophecy pertained to him. And this is one PROOF that they are INDEED the fulfillment of prophecy.

The true Church of Christ RE-EMERGED in the Philippines, a country in the FAR EAST. That's why the name is in Pilipino, the language spoken in the Philippines, much like the first-century Church of Christ which was called that in Hebrew or Greek.

The Church was registered with the Philippine government in July 27, 1914, the EXACT day the&nbsp;first WORLD WAR began.

Fifty four years later, members of the Iglesia Ni Cristo who went abroad in search of better life in Hawaii were GATHERED to form the first congregation of the Iglesia Ni Cristo in the FAR WEST, Hawaii being situated in the far west of the United States.

Today, the Iglesia Ni Cristo which started in the Philippines, a SMALL third world country much like Israel and Judah, has local congregations in about 70 countries and the TRUE gospel of salbvation is preached in about 120 languages.

All these happenings are BACKED up by PROPHECY. Consider the following pronouncements of God regarding the RE-EMERGENCE of the Church of Christ:

Isaiah 43:5 - "Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring your seed from the EAST, and GATHER thee from the WEST."

Isaiah 45:6 - "I will say to the NORTH, Give up; and to the SOUTH, Keep not back: bring my sons from FAR, and my daughters from the ENDS OF THE EARTH."

NORTH refers to Protestants who controlled the northern parts of Europe and SOUTH refers to Catholics who controlled the southern parts. In the Philippines, the country&nbsp;ws for 400 years &nbsp;pre-dominantly Catholics until Protestant missionaries came just after the first world war.

ENDS OF THE EARTH refers to TIME. Note that END is plural. This refers to the time IMMEDIATELY preceeding the END (singular) of the world.

This is how we know that "ends of the earth" refers to time."Now as he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will those things be? And what will be the sign of your coming. And of the END of the age" (Matt. 24:3)?&nbsp; Jesus answered: "So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is NEAR, even at the doors" (Matt. 24:33).

What are the things that we will see as&nbsp;SIGN that the END of the age is NEAR?

Matt. 24:6 - "And you will HEAR of wars and RUMORS of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet."

Matt. 24:7 - "For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places."

Matt. 24:8 - "All these are the&nbsp; BEGINNING of sorrows."

From these verses, we learn that the "BEGINNING of sorrows" precede the END of the age. And the "BEGINNING of Sorrows" started when we HEARD of war and RUMORS of war.

Prior to World War I, there were many wars between tribes and countries but were NOT heard of by other countries located FAR away from these warring countries. World War I was the FIRST war that was HEARD and RUMORED&nbsp;when it started trough the air waves.

The EXACT date World War I STARTED was July 27, 1914. The Iglesia Ni Cristo was registered with the Philippine government in July 27, 1914. Coincidence? No. It was FULFILLMENT of prophecy.

God's LAST messenger, Bro. Felix Manalo was likened to a ravenous bird of prey which would SNATCH God's people from the clutches of the NORTH (Protestants) and the SOUTH (Catholics):

Isaiah 46:11 - "Calling a ravenous bird FROM the EAST, the MAN that executeth my counsel from a FAR country; yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it."

God's LAST messenger is also likened to an "angel" rising from the EAST:

Rev. 7:2 - "Then I saw anothr ANGEL rising from the EAST, having the seal of the living God. And he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea,

Rev. 7:3 - saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea or the trees till WE have SEALED the servants of our God on their foreheads."

The process of SEALING on the forehead is the PREACHING of the gospel of salvation.

God ASSURED the success of the MESSENGER with these words:

Isaiah 41:10 - "Fear not; for I am with thee; be not dismayed; for I am thy God; I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the&nbsp;right hand of my RIGHTEOUSNESS."

What is God's right hand of RIGHTEOUSNESS?

Romans 1:16 - "For I am not ashamed of the GOSPEL of Christ; for it is the POWER of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth; to the Jew first and also to the Greek."

Romans 1:17 - "For therein is the RIGHTEOUSNESS of God REVEALED from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

The IGLESIA NI CRISTO (true Church of Christ) is ASSURED of success by God because it is UPHELD by the TRUE gospel of Christ that the last MESSENGER preached and that is STILL being preached today.

Ed

&nbsp;

 

[OldShepherd]

Here are links to some factual information about the Iglesias ni Manalo/Church of Manalo, several of these links are by ex-members of the cult.

Manalo supposedly restored the apostate church. How can anyone restore something that is not lost?

Matthew 16:18 . . .upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

18 Sa ibabaw ng batong ito ay itatayo ko ang aking iglesiya. Hindi makakapanaig sa kaniya ang tarangkahan ng Hades.


http://members.tripod.com/insiders_inc/

http://www.gospelcom.net/apologeticsindex/i00.html

http://www.letusreason.org/igleidir.htm

http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/table_of_contents.html

http://members.tripod.com/~janchung/false_messenger.html

http://members.tripod.com/xcrusaders/angeleast.html

http://www.adeptsys.com/chrysalis/Pages/info/iglesia.html

http://www.nossumus.net/iglesyanikristo/lesson11.html

http://www.examineiglesianicristo.com/honesty4.html

http://thebereans.net/qa-realname.shtml

 

[OldShepherd]

Posted by Ed
“After all the apostles died, the "falling away" that apostle Paul foretold occured and the Church of Christ was replaced by the Catholic Church. The Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ that re-emerged at a place and time designated by God in fulfillment of prophecy.”

You are quoting Paul as proof that the church fell away. Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. You must be a disciple of Paul, not Jesus.

Matthew 16:18 and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

18 Sa ibabaw ng batong ito ay itatayo ko ang aking iglesiya. Hindi makakapanaig sa kaniya ang tarangkahan ng Hades..

 

[OldShepherd]

Felix Manalo the 5th angel

”His message is no different than the 7th day Adventists 3rd angels message of which he probably was influenced from when he studied with them. Rev 7:2: "Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea." Manalo claims to be this angel.

How do they apply this prophecy to a Manalo? They claim the angel in this context means a human messenger. Angels do not preach the gospel so this must refer to a man. But we do find an angel preaching the gospel in Revelation from mid heaven Rev.14:6 "Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth-- to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people." I don't think he's using a plane! Angels are creatures that are spirits that dwell in heaven and do Gods bidding to mankind on earth.

Rev.7:1: "After these things" Which they believe is the war described in Rev.6:12-15 which is the first world war, then Rev.7:1 there are four angels mentioned which are then interpreted as men.

Rev 7:2-3: "Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." Who are these other 4 angels who hold back the wind (war) they are 1. Lloyd George of great Britain 2. Clemenceau of France 3. Orlando of Italy 4. Wilson of the U.S..

Manalo was already preaching "the gospel" in the Philippines so by deduction he is identified as the 5th angel to arise out of the east. Never mind that these other men were not believers, or part of Iglesia’s church. The logic of this claim completely fails when in v.2 states "He cried out to the other 4 angels "their is absolutely no evidence he (Manalo) communicated to these other 4 who are called by them angels. The U.S. did not enter the war until 1917 but Manalo points to the date of 1914 as crucial for the fulfillment, this would mean if he spoke to any it was 3 not 4. Not only this, but they participate in sealing 144,000 Jews for the tribulation. Did these 4 men do this? Did Manalo do this, I don’t
think so. Since when are sinful men called angels that come from heaven?

Angels spoken of in the end of time in the book of Revelation come from heaven. Even if it says from the east it still has its origin in heaven Rev.10:1 "I saw still another mighty angel coming down from heaven, clothed with a cloud. And a rainbow was on his head, his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire."

Far east or East

Acts 2:39 for the promise is unto you and to your children and to all that are a far off…"this is a promise to Israelites and their generation Manalo interpreted this to mean gentiles but they came up with no explanation how Israelites become Gentiles. But insists this is members in the Philippine's. Read also Acts 2:22.

There are 48 biblical verses that employ the term a far off and 30 verses that use far off but none of them refer to the Philippines or Far East. Genesis 22:4 and 37.18; Exodus 2:4, 20:18, 20:21, 24:I and 33:7. Jeremiah 23.23, 31:10, 46:27 and 51:50. A far also found in Mark 5:6,11:13,14:54 and 15:40. Luke l6:23, 17:12, 18:13, 22.54, 23:49 and in the book of Revelation, chapter 18 :10, 15 and 17 among others. This is more than enough to show that afar off has been misinterpreted by the INC. In the same way a far off (in the distance) is referred to in Luke 23.49 "And all his acquaintance and women that followed him from Galilee stood afar off beholding these things." This goes right along with Peters proclamation to the children of Israel in Acts 2:39 "the promise is for you and your children and all who are a far off, for whom the Lord our God will call."

A pillar of Iglesia belief is that its emergence in the Philippines was prophesied in the Bible. This idea is supposedly found in Isaiah 43:5-6, which states: "Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you; I will say to the north, 'Give up,' and the south, 'Do not withhold; bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth.'

Iglesia argues that in this verse Isaiah is referring to the "far east" and that this is the place where the "Church of Christ" will emerge in the last days. This point is constantly repeated in Iglesia literature: "The prophecy stated that God's children shall come from the far east" (Pasugo, March 1975, p.6).

But the phrase "far east" is not in the text. In fact, in the Tagalog (Filipino) translation, as well as in the original Hebrew, the words "far" and "east" are not even found in the same verse, yet the Iglesia recklessly combine the two verses to translate "far east." Using this fallacious interpretation Iglesia goes on to claim that the far east refers specifically to the Philippines. Who authorized mofatt to add the word far to east when this phrase does not appear in the Greek scripture Isaiah only uses East. this is referring to Israel and their being brought back from captivity.

While they claim the word Trinity is not found in the bible neither is the Island Philippine's, but no one would deny that it does exist !

Iglesia is so determined to convince its followers of this "fact," that it quotes Isaiah 43:5 from an inexact paraphrase by James Moffat which reads: "From the far east will I bring your offspring." Citing this mistranslation, one Iglesia work states: "Is it not clear that you can read the words 'far east'? Clear! Why does not the Tagalog Bible show them? That is not our fault, but that of those who translated the Tagalog Bible from English--the Catholics and Protestant" (Isang Pagbubunyag Sa Iglesia ni Cristo, 1964:131). The Iglesia thus accuses everyone else of mistranslating the Bible, when in fact it is Iglesia who is taking liberties with the original language.

They use the translations that have infamously been used by other cults such as Lamsa’s and Moffatts. Prior to 1923 the Moffat translation was the first to mention this term and is the only one that does, none did before 1923 nor after. This could only be true if the tagalog version used by INC was translated from Moffatts but it was not, so their claim of wrong translation is false.

The "far east" argument by saying that the Philippines are the geographic center of the Far East, so the restored Church would come from the Philippines. The problem is that Philippine islands are not the geographic center of the Far East. The Far East includes China, Korea, Japan, East Siberia, the Indo-Chinese countries, and the Philippines. On a map of the Far East the Philippines is on the lower right hand corner. The geographic center would be in Southern China, not in the Philippines. Not only this but the question is who is he calling, Israel. Certainly Filipino's’s are not Semetic or Israel. Isaiah is speaking of a regathering into their homeland "I will bring your descendants.

They also teach Gods messenger will be called from a far country in the east from the Islands of the sea using Isa.46:11: "Calling a ravenous bird from the east. A man who executes my counsel from a far country."

In Iglesia's’s doctrine Manalo is that bird who is to preach the true gospel and snatch the true believers as a ravenous bird from the false religions. If one looks at the way birds are used in scripture especially one of prey it is almost unanimously of Satan (Mt.13, Mk.4). As far as executing Gods counsel, because one does Gods purpose does not mean he is Gods messenger. Look at Pharaoh that was raised up to accomplish his purpose. Also Joel 2 in it they are called Gods army and yet they destroy and bring judgement on his people, and are destroyed by God in the end.

5861 `ayit-a bird of prey, a swooper (Brown driver briggs ) to scream, to shriek; (Qal) to scream 2) to dart greedily, to swoop upon, to rush upon; (Qal) to dart greedily
Isaiah 46:11 refers to Cyrus as "a ravenous bird (called) from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country"; "probably in allusion to the fact that the griffon was the emblem of Persia; and embroidered on its standard" (Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, I, 632) This is correct as far as history goes. Cyrus was used to have the Jews return from Babylon and although he is called Gods shepherd, (Isa. 45) he is not a good shepherd even though he was used by God. He allows Israel to rebuild the temple showing this all already took place in 539-536 B.C.. (compare Isa.46:11 and 44:28, 45:1)

This needs no comment and is self evident: if they want to wear this shoe it certainly fits.”

http://www.letusreason.org/Iglesia5.htm

 

[OldShepherd]

Matthew 16:18 . . .upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

18 Sa ibabaw ng batong ito ay itatayo ko ang aking iglesiya. Hindi makakapanaig sa kaniya ang tarangkahan ng Hades.

John Gill’s, Commentary on the Whole Bible, Matt 16:18
”The Jews speak of the gates of hell: sometimes of the gate of hell, in the singular number {p}; and sometimes of the gates of hell, in the plural number. They say {q}, that

“Mnhygl vy Myxtp hvlv, "hell has three gates", one in the wilderness, one in the sea, and one in Jerusalem.”

They talk {r} of

“an angel that is appointed Mnhygd yert le, "over the gates of hell", whose name is Samriel; who has three keys in his hands, and opens three doors.”

And elsewhere {s} they say, that

“he that is appointed over hell his name is Dumah, and many myriads of destroying angels are with him, and he stands Mnhygd axtp le, "at the gate of hell"; and all those that keep the holy covenant in this world, he has no power to bring them in.”

{p} T. Bab. Sabbat, fol. 39. 1. Succa, fol. 32. 2. Bava Bathra, fol. 84. 1.
{q} T. Bab. Erubin, fol. 19. 1. Menasseh ben Israel, Nishmat Chayim, fol, 33. 1, 2.
{r} Zohar in Gen. fol. 47. 4.
{s} Ib. fol. 7. 1.

Jesus and His disciples were Jews. This was their understanding of the “gates of hell”!

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by Kain

"We believe that the Iglesia Ni Cristo is the true Church of Christ in these last days. "

Hasn't it been "these last days" for 2000 years now?
It seems to me, every denomiation thinks they have all the answers, all expect submission to their particular authorities. But few claim to have their very own prophet. Those that do often end in tragedy. You would do well to remember that.

Kain,

Don't you know that with God, ONE day is a THOUSAND YEARS for man (2 Peter 3:8).

Thus, it has only been 2 days of God since Jesus died onb the cross.

Read 2 Peter 3:1-8.

Ed

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by OldShepherd

Manalo supposedly restored the apostate church. How can anyone restore something that is not lost?

Matthew 16:18 . . .upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The TRUE Church of Christ CEASED to exist AFTER all the TRUE members DIED. But this does NOT mean that the gates of hell prvailed against the church.

What Jesus meant when he said "the gates of hell shall NOT orevail against it" is explained in John 11:25, thus: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me (a MEMBER of the church of Christ), though he may die, he shall live."

In John 10:16, Jesus PROPHESIED: "And OTHER sheep I have which are NOT in THIS fold.; them also I must bring, and they will HEAR my voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

This means that AFTER all the TRUE members of the first-century church of Christ died and the rest TURNED AWAY from the true faith and BECAME members of the Catholic Church, Jesus still HAS other sheep which were NOT in the first-century fold.

Thus, the first-century church of Christ HAS to be revived to fulfill Jesus' prophecy regarding his OTHER sheep. The IGLESIA NI CRISTO is the fulfillment of that prophecy.

Ed

&nbsp;

 

[edpobre]

Originally posted by OldShepherd

Felix Manalo the 5th angel

”His message is no different than the 7th day Adventists 3rd angels message of which he probably was influenced from when he studied with them. Rev 7:2: "Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea." Manalo claims to be this angel.

How do they apply this prophecy to a Manalo? They claim the angel in this context means a human messenger. Angels do not preach the gospel so this must refer to a man. But we do find an angel preaching the gospel in Revelation from mid heaven Rev.14:6 "Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth-- to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people." I don't think he's using a plane! Angels are creatures that are spirits that dwell in heaven and do Gods bidding to mankind on earth.

Rev.7:1: "After these things" Which they believe is the war described in Rev.6:12-15 which is the first world war, then Rev.7:1 there are four angels mentioned which are then interpreted as men.

Rev 7:2-3: "Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads." Who are these other 4 angels who hold back the wind (war) they are 1. Lloyd George of great Britain 2. Clemenceau of France 3. Orlando of Italy 4. Wilson of the U.S..

Manalo was already preaching "the gospel" in the Philippines so by deduction he is identified as the 5th angel to arise out of the east. Never mind that these other men were not believers, or part of Iglesia’s church. The logic of this claim completely fails when in v.2 states "He cried out to the other 4 angels "their is absolutely no evidence he (Manalo) communicated to these other 4 who are called by them angels. The U.S. did not enter the war until 1917 but Manalo points to the date of 1914 as crucial for the fulfillment, this would mean if he spoke to any it was 3 not 4. Not only this, but they participate in sealing 144,000 Jews for the tribulation. Did these 4 men do this? Did Manalo do this, I don’t
think so. Since when are sinful men called angels that come from heaven?

Angels spoken of in the end of time in the book of Revelation come from heaven. Even if it says from the east it still has its origin in heaven Rev.10:1 "I saw still another mighty angel coming down from heaven, clothed with a cloud. And a rainbow was on his head, his face was like the sun, and his feet like pillars of fire."

Far east or East

Acts 2:39 for the promise is unto you and to your children and to all that are a far off…"this is a promise to Israelites and their generation Manalo interpreted this to mean gentiles but they came up with no explanation how Israelites become Gentiles. But insists this is members in the Philippine's. Read also Acts 2:22.

There are 48 biblical verses that employ the term a far off and 30 verses that use far off but none of them refer to the Philippines or Far East. Genesis 22:4 and 37.18; Exodus 2:4, 20:18, 20:21, 24:I and 33:7. Jeremiah 23.23, 31:10, 46:27 and 51:50. A far also found in Mark 5:6,11:13,14:54 and 15:40. Luke l6:23, 17:12, 18:13, 22.54, 23:49 and in the book of Revelation, chapter 18 :10, 15 and 17 among others. This is more than enough to show that afar off has been misinterpreted by the INC. In the same way a far off (in the distance) is referred to in Luke 23.49 "And all his acquaintance and women that followed him from Galilee stood afar off beholding these things." This goes right along with Peters proclamation to the children of Israel in Acts 2:39 "the promise is for you and your children and all who are a far off, for whom the Lord our God will call."

A pillar of Iglesia belief is that its emergence in the Philippines was prophesied in the Bible. This idea is supposedly found in Isaiah 43:5-6, which states: "Fear not, for I am with you; I will bring your offspring from the east, and from the west I will gather you; I will say to the north, 'Give up,' and the south, 'Do not withhold; bring my sons from afar and my daughters from the end of the earth.'

Iglesia argues that in this verse Isaiah is referring to the "far east" and that this is the place where the "Church of Christ" will emerge in the last days. This point is constantly repeated in Iglesia literature: "The prophecy stated that God's children shall come from the far east" (Pasugo, March 1975, p.6).

But the phrase "far east" is not in the text. In fact, in the Tagalog (Filipino) translation, as well as in the original Hebrew, the words "far" and "east" are not even found in the same verse, yet the Iglesia recklessly combine the two verses to translate "far east." Using this fallacious interpretation Iglesia goes on to claim that the far east refers specifically to the Philippines. Who authorized mofatt to add the word far to east when this phrase does not appear in the Greek scripture Isaiah only uses East. this is referring to Israel and their being brought back from captivity.

While they claim the word Trinity is not found in the bible neither is the Island Philippine's, but no one would deny that it does exist !

Iglesia is so determined to convince its followers of this "fact," that it quotes Isaiah 43:5 from an inexact paraphrase by James Moffat which reads: "From the far east will I bring your offspring." Citing this mistranslation, one Iglesia work states: "Is it not clear that you can read the words 'far east'? Clear! Why does not the Tagalog Bible show them? That is not our fault, but that of those who translated the Tagalog Bible from English--the Catholics and Protestant" (Isang Pagbubunyag Sa Iglesia ni Cristo, 1964:131). The Iglesia thus accuses everyone else of mistranslating the Bible, when in fact it is Iglesia who is taking liberties with the original language.

They use the translations that have infamously been used by other cults such as Lamsa’s and Moffatts. Prior to 1923 the Moffat translation was the first to mention this term and is the only one that does, none did before 1923 nor after. This could only be true if the tagalog version used by INC was translated from Moffatts but it was not, so their claim of wrong translation is false.

The "far east" argument by saying that the Philippines are the geographic center of the Far East, so the restored Church would come from the Philippines. The problem is that Philippine islands are not the geographic center of the Far East. The Far East includes China, Korea, Japan, East Siberia, the Indo-Chinese countries, and the Philippines. On a map of the Far East the Philippines is on the lower right hand corner. The geographic center would be in Southern China, not in the Philippines. Not only this but the question is who is he calling, Israel. Certainly Filipino's’s are not Semetic or Israel. Isaiah is speaking of a regathering into their homeland "I will bring your descendants.

They also teach Gods messenger will be called from a far country in the east from the Islands of the sea using Isa.46:11: "Calling a ravenous bird from the east. A man who executes my counsel from a far country."

In Iglesia's’s doctrine Manalo is that bird who is to preach the true gospel and snatch the true believers as a ravenous bird from the false religions. If one looks at the way birds are used in scripture especially one of prey it is almost unanimously of Satan (Mt.13, Mk.4). As far as executing Gods counsel, because one does Gods purpose does not mean he is Gods messenger. Look at Pharaoh that was raised up to accomplish his purpose. Also Joel 2 in it they are called Gods army and yet they destroy and bring judgement on his people, and are destroyed by God in the end.

5861 `ayit-a bird of prey, a swooper (Brown driver briggs ) to scream, to shriek; (Qal) to scream 2) to dart greedily, to swoop upon, to rush upon; (Qal) to dart greedily
Isaiah 46:11 refers to Cyrus as "a ravenous bird (called) from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country"; "probably in allusion to the fact that the griffon was the emblem of Persia; and embroidered on its standard" (Hastings Dictionary of the Bible, I, 632) This is correct as far as history goes. Cyrus was used to have the Jews return from Babylon and although he is called Gods shepherd, (Isa. 45) he is not a good shepherd even though he was used by God. He allows Israel to rebuild the temple showing this all already took place in 539-536 B.C.. (compare Isa.46:11 and 44:28, 45:1)

This needs no comment and is self evident: if they want to wear this shoe it certainly fits.”

http://www.letusreason.org/Iglesia5.htm

If anyone is interested in SEEKING the truth and would like an explanation of these charges, I suggest that they get in touch with a minister of a local congregation of the INC nearest their place because this forum is not enough to present all the evidences to refute these charges.

Think about this though. Rev. 19:10 CLEARLY teaches that a FELLOW-SERVANT and brethren HAS the "testimony of Jesus" which is the "SPIRIT of prophecy." Does OldShepherd's church have the "SPIRIT of prophecy?" Is there any other church which has the courage to open the Bible and say, "this prophecy is fulfilled in us?"

I challenge anyone to prove their legitimacy as the TRUE church of Christ by showing Biblical PROOF other than being DAUGHTERS of the great HARLOT who sits on many waters (Rev. 17:1, 15).

Ed

 

[OldShepherd]

Originally posted by edpobre
Originally posted by OldShepherd

The TRUE Church of Christ CEASED to exist AFTER all the TRUE members DIED. But this does NOT mean that the gates of hell prvailed against the church.

Where is this stated in scriptures? I don't see any proof of that.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus never taught that His church would apostasize or fall away!

Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

According to the cult teachings of the Iglesias ni Manalo, Jesus was never with His people from the first century until 1914 when Manalo started his cult.

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Jesus taught the He would never leave His church comfortless.

Matt 16:18 . . .upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus said that He was with His church always and that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. The teachings of the Iglesias ni Manalo contradict the words of Jesus.

What Jesus meant when he said "the gates of hell shall NOT orevail against it" is explained in John 11:25, thus: "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me (a MEMBER of the church of Christ), though he may die, he shall live."

John 11:25 says absolutely nothing about the "gates of hell." My previous post showed what Jews, such as Jesus and His disciples, believed about the "gates of hell" You are adding to the word of God.

In John 10:16, Jesus PROPHESIED: ". . .OTHER sheep I have which are NOT in THIS fold.; them also I must bring, and they will HEAR my voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd."

This means that AFTER all the TRUE members of the first-century church of Christ died and the rest TURNED AWAY from the true faith and BECAME members of the Catholic Church, Jesus still HAS other sheep which were NOT in the first-century fold.

Adding to the word of God again. This verse says nothing about the gates of hell. Jesus never taught that His church would turn away from the true faith.

 

[Kain]

Originally posted by edpobre
Originally posted by Kain


Kain,

Don't you know that with God, ONE day is a THOUSAND YEARS for man (2 Peter 3:8).

Thus, it has only been 2 days of God since Jesus died onb the cross.

Read 2 Peter 3:1-8.

Ed

No Ed, I don't know that. What I know is that one year is AS a thousand years and also that a thousand years is AS one day. That's from the old testament and it's correct interpretation shows that God it Eternal and timeless. The interpretation in 2 Peter is an apologetic misrepresentation to explain away the disappearance of Jesus and his failure to 'come quickly.'

The fact of my statement remains. Many denominations, sects and cults since the death of Christ (including Christ's own apostles) claimed to be in the last days. There is nothing unique about it, which has repeated over the past 2000 years.

Genesis sets the precedent of one day for God. It's marked by an "evening and morning." Taking a day for a thousand years would be non-sensical. It would mean that Jonah's prophecy of 40 days to the fall of Nineveh was actually 40000 years. Neither Jonah nor the inhabitants of Nineveh thought it was 40000 years.