If you're a Christian and pro-choice, you're on the wrong side of the issue.

[Blank Stair]

A miscarriage is not an abortion.

That is incorrect. A miscarriage is the bodies spontaneous abortion. The body expels the fetus.

 

[patricius79]

Actually, only women would be the one's aborting. Spontaneous, by God's will, or by the woman's own choice.
Romans 8:28
Ecclesiastes 3:1-15

God doesn't cause miscarriage. He gives people free will which can be abused and which can lead to negative things like miscarriage, which is not an abortion.

 

[Blank Stair]

God doesn't cause miscarriage. He gives people free will which can be abused and which can lead to negative things like miscarriage, which is not an abortion.

You are within your rights to believe that not all things happen according to God's will.
However, you can say it as often as you wish and still be wrong when you argue that a miscarriage is not an abortion. Perhaps it is the word, abortion, that offends you. However, an abortion is a voluntary termination of pregnancy. The voluntary removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.
While a miscarriage, mis-carry of a embryo or fetus in the uterus, is an involuntary abortion.


Miscarriage

Loss of the fetus before the 24th week of pregnancy or viability (the ability to survive outside the uterus without artificial support). The medical term is spontaneous abortion. The majority of miscarriages occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and may be mistaken for a late menstrual period. Miscarriages may occur because ofchromosomal abnormalities or developmental defects in the fetus, or because of severe illness, exposure to toxins, or an autoimmune disorder in the mother. Miscarriages later in pregnancy may be caused by genetic disorders, cervical incompetence, a defect in the uterus, or large uterine fibroids. The symptoms are heavy bleeding with cramping. Slight blood loss with severe pain can be a symptom of either a threatened miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy. Miscarriages are classified medically as different types of abortion. In a threatened abortion, the fetus remains alive in the uterus. In an inevitable abortion, the fetus dies and is expelled from the uterus. In a missed abortion, the fetus dies but remains in the uterus. A pelvic examination and ultrasound scanning may be performed to assess the pregnancy. If all of the contents of the uterus are expelled, no further treatment may be necessary. Otherwise, a D and C may be performed. Missed abortion requires a D and C orinduction of labour depending on the duration of the pregnancy. Rh-negative women are given anti-D (Rho) immunoglobulin to prevent complications related to Rhesus incompatibility in future pregnancies. (See alsoabortion.)

 

[durangodawood]

God doesn't cause miscarriage. He gives people free will which can be abused and which can lead to negative things like miscarriage, which is not an abortion.

Sounds like you think miscarriage is the moral fault of the mother or possibly father.

 

[patricius79]

You are within your rights to believe that not all things happen according to God's will.
However, you can say it as often as you wish and still be wrong when you argue that a miscarriage is not an abortion. Perhaps it is the word, abortion, that offends you. However, an abortion is a voluntary termination of pregnancy. The voluntary removal of an embryo or fetus from the uterus in order to end a pregnancy.
While a miscarriage, mis-carry of a embryo or fetus in the uterus, is an involuntary abortion.


Miscarriage

Loss of the fetus before the 24th week of pregnancy or viability (the ability to survive outside the uterus without artificial support). The medical term is spontaneous abortion. The majority of miscarriages occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, and may be mistaken for a late menstrual period. Miscarriages may occur because ofchromosomal abnormalities or developmental defects in the fetus, or because of severe illness, exposure to toxins, or an autoimmune disorder in the mother. Miscarriages later in pregnancy may be caused by genetic disorders, cervical incompetence, a defect in the uterus, or large uterine fibroids. The symptoms are heavy bleeding with cramping. Slight blood loss with severe pain can be a symptom of either a threatened miscarriage or ectopic pregnancy. Miscarriages are classified medically as different types of abortion. In a threatened abortion, the fetus remains alive in the uterus. In an inevitable abortion, the fetus dies and is expelled from the uterus. In a missed abortion, the fetus dies but remains in the uterus. A pelvic examination and ultrasound scanning may be performed to assess the pregnancy. If all of the contents of the uterus are expelled, no further treatment may be necessary. Otherwise, a D and C may be performed. Missed abortion requires a D and C orinduction of labour depending on the duration of the pregnancy. Rh-negative women are given anti-D (Rho) immunoglobulin to prevent complications related to Rhesus incompatibility in future pregnancies. (See alsoabortion.)

I just don't want any kind of claim that God causes death in any way, or that abortion is somehow justified because women have miscarriages sometimes.

 

[patricius79]

Sounds like you think miscarriage is the moral fault of the mother or possibly father.

No, I'm just saying that everything bad that happens results from the abuse of free will, of which we are all guilty. I'm not saying that people who have bad things happen are bigger sinners.

But it is true that I am the ultimate cause of every bad thing that has happened in my life. God didn't do any of it. And while others have hurt me, they could not have done so if I had not sinned myself.

Nor do I judge women who have abortions, though abortion is a great crime. I don't even feel angry at women who abort. I just feel compassion.

 

[Blank Stair]

I just don't want any kind of claim that God causes death in any way, or that abortion is somehow justified because women have miscarriages sometimes.

Have you read the Bible?
You don't want any kind of claim that God causes death in any way?
My sir, God drowned the entire world save for 8 people he left to live.
Innumerable pregnant women died beneath the waters.

God killed the first born of every Egyptian household when he sent the angel of death into Egypt at the time of Moses.
Those are just two examples of God taking life that doesn't include those that were in utero in other passages.
That's why I ask, have you read the Bible?
Hosea 13:16

 

[patricius79]

Have you read the Bible?
You don't want any kind of claim that God causes death in any way?
My sir, God drowned the entire world save for 8 people he left to live.
Innumerable pregnant women died beneath the waters.

God killed the first born of every Egyptian household when he sent the angel of death into Egypt at the time of Moses.
Those are just two examples of God taking life that doesn't include those that were in utero in other passages.
That's why I ask, have you read the Bible?
Hosea 13:16

God is All-Good and can't cause anything evil. The sad events you refer to are brought about by human free will. God enters into these sad events to redeem them, not to cause them.

Likewise God gives a woman free will. She can abuse that free will by having an abortion. Her boyfriend or husband can push her into it. God gave the free will, but he didn't cause the evil.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I don't see how something could be potentially human. Either the being is human or not. The issue is whether the being's powers are fully developed. But in nature, a zygote is genetically human as we are, and is essentially as human as we are.

If you found a human toe out in a field of grass....would you say, "I just found a person!". Probably not...but why? Genetically it's all human DNA....

 

[Blank Stair]

If you found a human toe out in a field of grass....would you say, "I just found a person!". Probably not...but why? Genetically it's all human DNA....

Would he be right to say, I've found the body part of a person?

 

[Ana the Ist]

When two humans copulate, one inseminates the other who has ovaries and an egg, what is created?

A zygote? An embryo? I forget which is the first stage.

 

[Ana the Ist]

When does an unborn baby become "human"? Was there a point that they were not human? If so, when did their "human-ness" begin, and why?

Thank you.

It's debatable...but I'd be comfortable saying it's definitely a person at birth.

 

[Blank Stair]

God is All-Good and can't cause anything evil. The sad events you refer to are brought about by human free will. God enters into these sad events to redeem them, not to cause them.

Isaiah 45:7

Likewise God gives a woman free will. She can abuse that free will by having an abortion. Her boyfriend or husband can push her into it. God gave the free will, but he didn't cause the evil.[/QUOTE]
Miscarriage does not occur by the woman's free will.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yeah.

Then no...I don't think newborns are less human than me.

 

[Ana the Ist]

A miscarriage is not an abortion.

In what way?

 

[brinny]

It's debatable...but I'd be comfortable saying it's definitely a person at birth.

Debatable by whom?

In the meantime, was there ever a time that you were not human? Or me, or any of us?

 

[Blank Stair]

A zygote? An embryo? I forget which is the first stage.

zygote is 1st, to embryo, to fetus.

 

[brinny]

It's debatable...but I'd be comfortable saying it's definitely a person at birth.

Just wondering...

what makes a newborn baby (which means that the baby just passed through the mother's birth canal, into our oxygenated atmosphere, etc.) "human" as opposed to before the traveling through the birth canal? The moments before, this same baby is not human?

 

[patricius79]

deleted by author when I realized he already answered my question.

 

[Ana the Ist]

zygote is 1st, to embryo, to fetus.

Thanks!