If you were not a Christian, what would you be?

[muichimotsu]

What is there to say on the matter, though?

A lot of people, myself included, can't really see themselves as anything but Christian.

That likely reflects a lack of critical thought on your part, just thinking that there isn't something that's maybe just a step down but isn't outright nontheism in one variety or another. Maybe you could be a Baha'i or a Zoroastrian (kind of affable to Christianity in a sense with the evil and good God in constant conflict, like God and Satan seem to be in your position)

Maybe you could be a Gnostic?

 

[muichimotsu]

The main reason I'm not a Stoic, aside from believing the Gospel is true, is because stoicism presents such a bleak picture of life. It's about managing life, not embracing it. Without the hope of the inbreaking of the Kingdom of God and the World to Come, and left with a basic atheism, that's sort of what we are left with- management of life. Suppression of the emotions. Not really abundant life, where we can embrace the depths of despair and the highest ecstasy as both hallowed.

And actually, if I accepted some basic kind of monotheism- I might also choose Judaism.

But other people are entitled to their perspective.

Why would you choose Stoic if it wasn't even remotely aligned to your general demands for a fulfilling worldview? Pretty sure there are other Greek philosophies you might like, such as Aristotelianism or perhaps Platonism? Considering Christianity and Islam incorporated them to some extent in theri history, one might think they could work, even if they didn't believe in a messiah or such.

There are varieties of atheism too that aren't nearly as bleak or "depressing" as Stoicism. Epicureanism comes immediately to mind.

 

[Winepress777]

"If you were not a Christian, what would you be?"

Then I would be this;

(Eph 2:12) ...separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and estranged from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.


(Eph 2:13) But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.

 

[JGG]

I guess I'm not finding that to be as meaningful as you do. We could call it by other positive adjectives, but does it make life have a purpose? Welllllll.....

Well (a) you didn't ask whether it gives life purpose, you asked if meaning could be found in staring at the unknown, and (b) for many of us it does give life purpose.

 

[Eudaimonist]

I guess I'm not finding that to be as meaningful as you do. We could call it by other positive adjectives, but does it make life have a purpose? Welllllll.....

I remember as a child that I would look up at the stars in awe and wonder, and marvel at how ancient they are. I loved Carl Sagan's show Cosmos, where he takes us on a journey through the universe, and I loved space opera such as Star Trek as well. I even had a college astronomy textbook of my mother's, which while having mainly black and white photographs, was a treasured possession, and which even as a seven year old I had read and understood a good deal.

Nihilists can tell me that nothing about that was meaningful, but I certainly experienced that as deeply and profoundly meaningful. YMMV.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Albion]

I remember as a child that I would look up at the stars in awe and wonder, and marvel at how ancient they are. I loved Carl Sagan's show Cosmos, where he takes us on a journey through the universe, and I loved space opera such as Star Trek as well. I even had a college astronomy textbook of my mother's, which while having mainly black and white photographs, was a treasured possession, and which even as a seven year old I had read and understood a good deal.

Nihilists can tell me that nothing about that was meaningful, but I certainly experienced that as deeply and profoundly meaningful. YMMV.

Well sure, looking at a beautiful sunset excites our senses, too, but as for it making anything "meaningful" in so far as the mystery of life is concerned or in the way that believers feel the idea of a God who orders everything and for an eternal purpose does,...no.

At least, that's my opinion about it, and I don't mind that others may see it differently.

 

[JGG]

Well sure, looking at a beautiful sunset excites our senses, too, but as for it making anything "meaningful" in so far as the mystery of life is concerned or in the way that believers feel the idea of a God who orders everything and for an eternal purpose does,...no.

Wait. Firstly, I would say that the pursuit to solve the mystery of the universe would include the mystery of life. Secondly, since you admit that you don't see the meaning in such pursuits as we do, how can you say that it doesn't compare to believers and their God? You must admit you're making such a statement out of ignorance. Maybe it does.

"I've never been to this Mariana Trench, but it isn't deep in the way the Grand Canyon is."

At least, that's my opinion about it, and I don't mind that others may see it differently.

Clearly you do as you're posts keep telling us how your meaning is better. Can your dad also beat up my dad?

 

[Albion]

Wait. Firstly, I would say that the pursuit to solve the mystery of the universe would include the mystery of life. Secondly, since you admit that you don't see the meaning in such pursuits as we do, how can you say that it doesn't compare to believers and their God?

The difference between a God-centered and purposeful universe...and a merely complicated one ought to be apparent IMO.

You must admit you're making such a statement out of ignorance.

No, I "mustn't."

 

[Eudaimonist]

Well sure, looking at a beautiful sunset excites our senses, too

No, no. I didn't say that the stars excited my senses. I said that I experienced the stars as meaningful. They weren't just pretty lights in the sky.

(Sunsets, in contrast, are not something I have ever experienced as meaningful. They are just pretty to me.)

but as for it making anything "meaningful" in so far as the mystery of life is concerned or in the way that believers feel the idea of a God who orders everything and for an eternal purpose does,...no.

I honestly don't understand your perspective on this. The stars mostly definitely touched on the mystery of life for me. The stars were profound.

I agree that I did not see them as gods, and didn't think that they had plans for my existence. Nevertheless, there was more than a hint of the Mysterium Tremendum for me.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Albion]

No, no. I didn't say that the stars excited my senses. I said that I experienced the stars as meaningful. They weren't just pretty lights in the sky.

And I said that they are not meaningful in the way that belief in a God-centered universe is meaningful. Such a thing as looking at the stars is emotional and a stimulus to our imaginations...or exciting, in a way. BUT that is not the equivalent of the alternative. Anyway, I was speaking for my own POV there and not attributing it to you, if that's what you thought.

I honestly don't understand your perspective on this.

That much I got right away.

The stars mostly definitely touched on the mystery of life for me. The stars were profound.

OK, tell me what the sight of them showed you about the purpose of life on Earth.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

OK, tell me what the sight of them showed you about the purpose of life on Earth.

It's not just the sight of them that matters, but knowing a little about what those points of light actually are. It tells us something about us as well.

 

[Eudaimonist]

OK, tell me what the sight of them showed you about the purpose of life on Earth.

I said "mystery of life", not "purpose of life".

The stars are ancient beyond my ability to comprehend. Yes, one can state "astronomically" large numbers, but that isn't the same thing as grokking the huge amount of time involved.

Likewise for the size of the universe, which is immense beyond imagining. We can speak of millions of light years, but those are just numbers.

And this is where we live! This is where the human species had evolved. To quote Carl Sagan, "we are star stuff".

We are part of the cosmic order. This isn't an intelligently imposed order, but that doesn't make it any less awesome and relevant to us.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[JGG]

The difference between a God-centered and purposeful universe...and a merely complicated one ought to be apparent IMO.

Not really.

No, I "mustn't."

So even though you claim you're just giving an opinion, you wouldn't admit that you just don't know what exploration and discovery means to someone like me? Christian mind reading skills are impressive.

 

[Eudaimonist]

eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Albion]

It's not just the sight of them that matters, but knowing a little about what those points of light actually are. It tells us something about us as well.

What would that be?

I said "mystery of life", not "purpose of life".

That's right. I said "purpose of life." That was part of my request to you. That's what it would take for it to be meaningful in more than a trivial way. To me, looking at the stars and wondering isn't all that meaningful. Cats do the same thing.

 

[Eudaimonist]

That's right. I said "purpose of life."

So you did. Perhaps you could explain why.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Archaeopteryx]

What would that be?

That we are starstuff capable of contemplating its own origins.

That's right. I said "purpose of life." That was part of my request to you. That's what it would take for it to be meaningful in more than a trivial way.

What's trivial about contemplating the human condition?

 

[Albion]

So you did. Perhaps you could explain why.


eudaimonia,

Mark

See my last paragraph above.

 

[Eudaimonist]

That's right. I said "purpose of life." That was part of my request to you. That's what it would take for it to be meaningful in more than a trivial way. To me, looking at the stars and wondering isn't all that meaningful. Cats do the same thing.

Cats do not do this in the same way that human beings do. They cannot contemplate existence in that way.

And I'm not just talking about "looking" and "wondering" being meaningful. It is what one wonders about that is meaningful. I have tried to get this across in post #52.

I don't see the stars as sources of purpose, as if stars tell me whether or not I should touch. Rather, they give me a sense of context for my existence. Purpose is something human, and the stars give context to my human existence.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Albion]

Cats do not do this in the same way that human beings do. They cannot contemplate existence in that way.

Oh sure, that's true. But they do wonder about physical objects and movements that they do not understand. To me, that's approximately all that we're talking about when saying that the stars cause us to feel moved or to ponder the meaning of life, etc. We're standing on a shore and wondering.

Rather, they give me a sense of context for my existence. Purpose is something human, and the stars give context to my human existence.

I believe you, but they don't do that for me; and that's why I said that there's a critical difference between a God-centered universe and merely a complicated collection of physical matter that is stunning--and perplexing--when we view it.