If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Bob S]

[/QUOTE]

If Paul really taught against the law I don't have any reservations about rejecting him as a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).[/QUOTE]
Hi Travis, Paul didn't speak against the law. The law had its purpose with Israel and since Israel fell as a nation the law was no longer in force.

I have come to the conclusion that Messianics cannot relate to the writings of Paul and yes, you have to reject him in order to emblazon you belief system.

I couldn't care less what some mere man has to say if they speak against the law. The law is going to be enforced on all mankind in the future (Isaiah 2:2-3, Micah 4:1-2). We will all keep the feasts such as the feast of tabernacles (Zechariah 14:16) and sabbaths (Isaiah 66:23). Circumcision will be mandatory to enter God's sanctuary (Ezekiel 44:9) and dietary laws will be enforced (Isaiah 66:15-17). God wants the gentiles to keep sabbath as well (Isaiah 56:6). There is to be one law for Jew and Gentile (Leviticus 24:22). Jesus preached the law (Matthew 5:17-19) and said to teach everything he said to all nations (Matthew 28:20).

Isaiah wrote some remarkable things like in the new Earth man will live to be over 100 and man will walk among dead bodies on Sabbath. New Moon will be celebrated, yet Some Sabbath observers don't observe new moons now. Why don't you ever question SDAs on that issue? Children will be born according to Isaiah which is not so according to other scripture. Some of what was written in the Old Testament certainly is a mystery and you and I certainly do not have all the answers. To call Paul a false prophet really turns me off . I trust God in being able to direct man in putting together the Holy Writ and to preserve it for as long as man is on this Earth. If you take it upon your own authority to denounce Paul's writings then you have opened a way to denounce anything you deem not fitting in your theme. I, for one, could never sit at the feet of anyone that teach such a heresy. In my opinion you are pounding the keys for naught.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

You seem to be very excited, so many posts. I will reply to Travis firstly though,
be patient Bob, this could take some time. The subject of 'the law' and Grace, is an
extremely complex subject, that is why there are so many different interpretations.

Take your time. The simple detail at this point is that you posted something about the 3 divisions in the LAW that we see in the "Baptist Confession of Faith" edited by C.H. Spurgeon and also in the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and also in the SDANEt link site - for the LAW of God as described by Seventh-day Adventists... then I pointed out that the fact that all three sources point to three categories/divisions in the LAW (3 types or category of law) -- is not some sort of contradiction.

Feel free to take your time with that example of harmony between the three of them.

Where your view is challenged -- is that the Bible, and the SDA document and both of your own pro-Sunday documents affirm the Bible detail you are rejecting -- which is that the TEN Commandments are in fact included in the moral law of God AND they are still applicable to the saints today - as we see in Eph 6:2 for example.

 

[BobRyan]

If Paul really taught against the law I don't have any reservations about rejecting him as a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

Well the good news in 1Cor 7:19 is that Paul taught "What matters is keeping the commandments of God"

 

[Jan001]

These new coverts of gentiles were former pagans who knew nothing of the scriptures unlike the jewish converts, and people were saying they couldn't be saved till they were fully observant of the law. It's like expecting a new employee to know everything on the first day. James decided they'd start them off with just four basic laws (Acts 15:20) and they'd learn the rest over time at the synagogues.

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

If you interpret it to mean those four laws were literally all that was expected, then the letters to the Roman, Corinthians, Galatians, etc were a waste of time, and guilty of heaping unnecessary burdens on the believers. Passages like Romans 1:18-32, Romans 13:9, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:19-21, and Ephesians 5:3-5 add a number of additional sins to repent of for example. And 2 Timothy 2:16 tells us that all scripture is useful for our instruction.

Circumcision is how a male person becomes subject to the law of Moses. Circumcision was necessary in order for a male person to become bound/yoked under the law of Moses. No exceptions.

In other words: if a person is not circumcised, he is not under the law of Moses. Genesis 17:14
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis+17:14&version=RSV

Scripture states that a Christian is not bound to the law of circumcision. We know then, that a Christian is not bound/yoked to the law of Moses.


Galatians 5:3
I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law (of Moses). rsv

Galatians 5:1-7
Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth (of the gospel)? 8 This persuasion (to become circumcised) is not from him (Christ) who calls you. rsv


A person cannot be under the law of Christ and also under the law of Moses at the same time. A person can be under the law of Christ/law of liberty/law of grace or else he can be under the law of Moses.


The reason the law of Christ is called the law of liberty is because a person who is under the law of liberty/law of grace/law of Christ is not in bondage to the yoke of the law of Moses. Acts 15

Acts 15:10
Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke (law of Moses) on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? nkjv

Galatians 2:3-5But even Titus, who was with me, was not compelled to be circumcised, though he was a Greek. 4 But because of false brethren secretly brought in, who slipped in to spy out our freedom (liberty) which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage (of the law of Moses)— 5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you. rsv

James 1:24-26
or he observes himself and goes away and at once forgets what he was like. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres, being no hearer that forgets but a doer that acts, he shall be blessed in his doing. 26 If any one thinks he is religious, and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this man’s religion is vain. rsv

A person who becomes ritually circumcised according to the law of Moses Leviticus 12:2-3 severs/cuts himself off from Christ's grace. This person is no longer saved by the blood of Christ.


Galatians 5:1-7
Now I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth (of the gospel)? 8 This persuasion (to become circumcised) is not from him (Christ) who calls you. rsv

 

[BobRyan]

Circumcision is how a male person becomes subject to the law of Moses. Circumcision was necessary in order for a male person to become bound/yoked under the law of Moses. No exceptions.

In other words: if a person is not circumcised, he is not under the law of Moses. Genesis 17:14

So then in your doctrine - taking God's name in vain is quite alright as long as you are a gentile doing it???
- give me Ephesians 6:2 "instead"
- give me Romans 3:31 "instead"
- give me Mark 7:6-13 "instead"
- give me James 2 "instead"
- give me Revelation 14:12 "instead"
- give me Romans 8:4-9 "instead"
- give me 1 John 3:4 "instead"
- give me 1 John 2:1 "instead"
- give me Jeremiah 31:31-33 "instead"

 

[Travis93]

Well the good news in 1Cor 7:19 is that Paul taught "What matters is keeping the commandments of God"

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Indeed, the law is not void and all of it useful instruction for us.

 

[Bob S]

So then in your doctrine - taking God's name in vain is quite alright as long as you are a gentile doing it???
- give me Ephesians 6:2 "instead"
- give me Romans 3:31 "instead"
- give me Mark 7:6-13 "instead"
- give me James 2 "instead"
- give me Revelation 14:12 "instead"
- give me Romans 8:4-9 "instead"
- give me 1 John 3:4 "instead"
- give me 1 John 2:1 "instead"
- give me Jeremiah 31:31-33 "instead"

Hey Bob, you talk the talk, but don't walk the walk. You tell us we should be under the law of Moses yet argue that the feast days and all but a few of the law of Moses is abrogated. You are in a corner and there is noway to get out, too bad.

What I have gleaned from your posts is that transgression of the law is sin. The law meaning everything you think is relevant. The problem is sin came before the law. The law didn't come until 430 years after Abraham. satan sinned at some time previous to Adam and Eve. satan's sin could not have happened if there had not been a law.

"If sin is the transgression of the law (They read (SDAs)* "Ten Commandments"), then the ten commandment law existed even before the creation of the world—or at the least, before the creation of Adam and Eve. The devil sinned at some time previously, the reasoning goes, and because 1 John 3:4 states explicitly that "sin is the transgression of the law," the devil's sin could not have happened had there been no law to transgress.

A person whose critical thinking skills have not been compromised by the adherence to this particular anchor belief sees the flaws in the rationale nearly immediately. If the Ten Commandments existed from the beginning of the earth, and perhaps even earlier, then one has the sin of adultery existing before their were people alive to commit adultery. If it were not for the explicit declaration by Jesus that the angels do not marry, no doubt many would have concluded otherwise in order to further bolster and uphold this (SDA)* particular anchor belief.

They also conclude, due to the influence of this anchor belief, that the Sabbath would have had to exist prior to the six days of creation, and the Seventh day of Genesis 2:1-3, therefore, is the first Seventh-day Sabbath on the Earth and designated by the eternal law."

Taken from Proclaimation article by W. Hohmann Fall 2015. ( ) * mine

I would add that the commandment to honor mothers and fathers would not have meant any sense before Adam and Eve.

 

[BobRyan]

Circumcision is how a male person becomes subject to the law of Moses. Circumcision was necessary in order for a male person to become bound/yoked under the law of Moses. No exceptions.

In other words: if a person is not circumcised, he is not under the law of Moses. Genesis 17:14

So then in your doctrine - taking God's name in vain is quite alright as long as you are a gentile doing it???
- give me Ephesians 6:2 "instead"
- give me Romans 3:31 "instead"
- give me Mark 7:6-13 "instead"
- give me James 2 "instead"
- give me Revelation 14:12 "instead"
- give me Romans 8:4-9 "instead"
- give me 1 John 3:4 "instead"
- give me 1 John 2:1 "instead"
- give me Jeremiah 31:31-33 "instead"

Hey Bob, you talk the talk

I am guessing this is pretty much the extent of your "Bible study contribution" for this evening.

because 1 John 3:4 states explicitly that "sin is the transgression of the law," the devil's sin could not have happened had there been no law to transgress.

I am a little bit surprised you get that right.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[klutedavid]

If Paul really taught against the law I don't have any reservations about rejecting him as a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). I couldn't care less what some mere man has to say if they speak against the law. The law is going to be enforced on all mankind in the future (Isaiah 2:2-3, Micah 4:1-2). We will all keep the feasts such as the feast of tabernacles (Zechariah 14:16) and sabbaths (Isaiah 66:23). Circumcision will be mandatory to enter God's sanctuary (Ezekiel 44:9) and dietary laws will be enforced (Isaiah 66:15-17). God wants the gentiles to keep sabbath as well (Isaiah 56:6). There is to be one law for Jew and Gentile (Leviticus 24:22). Jesus preached the law (Matthew 5:17-19) and said to teach everything he said to all nations (Matthew 28:20).

With that said, I interpret Acts 15:1 as them saying that circumcision being a prerequisite to getting saved in the first place. However, Abraham was saved (Genesis 15:6) years before being circumcised (Genesis 17:24), so from this I don't think it's necessary for a new believer to do it right away.

When Paul lists sin for the gentiles, he's affirming the law. Here's some examples.
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols (Leviticus 17:7), and from blood (Leviticus 17:10), and from things strangled (Genesis 9:4), and from fornication (Leviticus 18): from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators (Leviticus 18), nor idolaters (Exodus 20:3-5), nor adulterers (Exodus 20:14), nor effeminate (Deuteronomy 22:5 men wearing women's clothes would qualify as "effeminate" I think), nor abusers of themselves with mankind (Leviticus 18:23 probably talking about homosexuals here like in Romans 1:27-28), Nor thieves (Exodus 20:15), nor covetous (Exodus 20:17), nor drunkards (Deuteronomy 21:20), nor revilers (Exodus 22:28), nor extortioners (Exodus 22:25, Leviticus 19:13, Deuteronomy 25:13-16), shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Hello Travis.

Thanks for your reply.

Are Gentile believers by default required to be circumcised?

I require Travis, that you make your mind up on this matter.

You started your reply with the following statement.

If Paul really taught against the law I don't have any reservations about rejecting him as a false prophet
(Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

After I quoted the verses from the book of Acts, Travis, that clearly tell us that Paul oppossed these men from Judea.
These men from Judea who advocated circumcision for the Gentile believers. You replied with a conditional statement,
'If Paul really taught against the law'. There should be no reservation on your part, that Paul opposed circumcising the
Gentiles. How about I drive the point home Travis, Paul most strongly opposed circumcision.

Galatians 5
6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

Paul is disregarding the law, Paul is openly declaring circumcision to be a meaningless act.

We know that physical circumcision was an eternal covenant granted by God to Abraham.

Genesis 17
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised:
and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

All folk according to the decree of God will be circumcised in the flesh, they must be circumcised in the flesh.
This is an eternal covenant and physical circumcision was the rite of passage, no other option is available.

Genesis 17
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off
from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Travis, the onus is on you to cease your deliberation, Paul according to the very command of God, must be cut off
and rejected. The law will not tolerate your ambivalence on this matter, the command of God is so clear on this point.

Once you take a stand on this matter Travis, we can proceed with the rest of your reply. I find your ambivalence
intolerable, you know what the scripture states above and yet you bend and twist in avoiding God's command.

Travis, is physical circumcision the entry requirement of the eternal covenant or not?

 

[bugkiller]

If Paul really taught against the law I don't have any reservations about rejecting him as a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5).

Hi Travis, Paul didn't speak against the law. The law had its purpose with Israel and since Israel fell as a nation the law was no longer in force.

I have come to the conclusion that Messianics cannot relate to the writings of Paul and yes, you have to reject him in order to emblazon you belief system.



Isaiah wrote some remarkable things like in the new Earth man will live to be over 100 and man will walk among dead bodies on Sabbath. New Moon will be celebrated, yet Some Sabbath observers don't observe new moons now. Why don't you ever question SDAs on that issue? Children will be born according to Isaiah which is not so according to other scripture. Some of what was written in the Old Testament certainly is a mystery and you and I certainly do not have all the answers. To call Paul a false prophet really turns me off . I trust God in being able to direct man in putting together the Holy Writ and to preserve it for as long as man is on this Earth. If you take it upon your own authority to denounce Paul's writings then you have opened a way to denounce anything you deem not fitting in your theme. I, for one, could never sit at the feet of anyone that teach such a heresy. In my opinion you are pounding the keys for naught.

I'd say he's pounding the keys for some one other than God.

bugkiller

 

[Dkh587]

Matthew 5:17-19 KJV
“Think not that I am come to destroy the Torah, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Torah, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
‭

--

1 Samuel 15:22-23 ISR98
“Then Shemu’ĕl said, “Does יהוה delight in burnt offerings and slaughterings, as in obeying the voice of יהוה?
Look, to obey is better than an offering, to heed is better than the fat of rams.
For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and stubbornness is as wickedness and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of יהוה, He also does reject you as sovereign.”

--

Mark 12:28-34 ISR98
“And one of the scribes coming near, hearing them reasoning together, knowing that He had answered them well, asked Him, “Which is the first command of all?

And Yahushua answered him, “The first of all the commands is, ‘Hear, O Yisra’ĕl, יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one. ‘And you shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first command.

And the second, like it, is this, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’

There is no other command greater than these.

And the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one Elohim, and there is no other besides Him. And to love Him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the being, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbour as oneself, is more than all the burnt offerings and offerings.

And when Yahushua saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, “You are not far from the reign of Elohim."

And after that no one was bold enough to question Him.”

--

Deuteronomy 6:4-5 ISR98
“Hear, O Yisra’ĕl: יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one! And you shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your might.”

--

Deuteronomy 4:6-8 ISR98
“And you shall guard and do them, for this is your wisdom and your understanding before the eyes of the peoples who hear all these laws, and they shall say, ‘Only a wise and understanding people is this great nation!’ For what great nation is there which has Elohim so near to it, as יהוה our Elohim is to us, whenever we call on Him?

“And what great nation is there that has such laws and righteous right-rulings like all this Torah which I set before you this day?”

--

Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 ISR98
“Let us hear the conclusion of the entire matter: Fear Elohim and guard His commands, for this applies to all mankind!

For Elohim shall bring every work into right-ruling, including all that is hidden, whether good or whether evil”

--

Deuteronomy 6:20-25 ISR98
“When your son asks you in time to come, saying, ‘What is the meaning of the witnesses, and the laws, and the right-rulings which יהוה our Elohim has commanded you?’ then you shall say to your son, ‘We were slaves of Pharaoh in Mitsrayim, and יהוה brought us out of Mitsrayim with a strong hand, and יהוה sent signs and wonders, great and grievous, upon Mitsrayim, upon Pharaoh, and upon all his household, before our eyes. ‘And He brought us out from there, to bring us in, to give us the land of which He swore to our fathers. ‘And יהוה commanded us to do all these laws, to fear יהוה our Elohim, for our good always, to keep us alive, as it is today. ‘And it is righteousness for us when we guard to do all this command before יהוה our Elohim, as He has commanded us.’”

--

Deuteronomy 7:9-10 ISR98
“And you shall know that יהוה your Elohim, He is Elohim, the trustworthy Ěl guarding covenant and kindness for a thousand generations with those who love Him, and those who guard His commands, but repaying those who hate Him to their face, to destroy them. He does not delay to do so with him who hates Him, He repays him to his face.”

--

Romans 2:11 ISR98
“For there is no partiality with Elohim.”

--
1 Corinthians 7:19 NIV
“Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts.”

--

Luke 6:46-49 NIV
“Why do you call me, ‘Master, Master,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

--
Romans 2:13 ISR98
“For not the hearers of the Torah are righteous in the sight of Elohim, but the doers of the Torah shall be declared right.”

--

Jeremiah 31:33 ISR98
“For this is the covenant I shall make with the house of Yisra’ĕl after those days, declares יהוה: I shall put My Torah in their inward parts, and write it on their hearts. And I shall be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.”

--

Revelation 14:9-12 NLT
“Then a third angel followed them, shouting,

'Anyone who worships the beast and his statue or who accepts his mark on the forehead or on the hand must drink the wine of God’s anger. It has been poured full strength into God’s cup of wrath. And they will be tormented with fire and burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever, and they will have no relief day or night, for they have worshiped the beast and his statue and have accepted the mark of his name.

This means that God’s holy people must endure persecution patiently, obeying his commands and maintaining their faith in Yahushua.”

--

Revelation 12:17 NLT
“And the dragon was angry at the woman and declared war against the rest of her children—all who keep God’s commandments and maintain their testimony for Yahushua.”


--

Revelation 22:14 KJV
“Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.”

 

[Jan001]

So then in your doctrine - taking God's name in vain is quite alright as long as you are a gentile doing it???
- give me Ephesians 6:2 "instead"
- give me Romans 3:31 "instead"
- give me Mark 7:6-13 "instead"
- give me James 2 "instead"
- give me Revelation 14:12 "instead"
- give me Romans 8:4-9 "instead"
- give me 1 John 3:4 "instead"
- give me 1 John 2:1 "instead"
- give me Jeremiah 31:31-33 "instead"

Jesus tells us which commandments/laws for Jews (and Christians) to keep if we desire to inherit eternal life:

Luke 10:26-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and (you shall love) your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”

​

Taking the Lord's name in vain is not all right for a Christian to do.

Anything that we put above God in esteem is a sin.

Anything that we do that harms/wrongs our neighbors is a sin.


Christians do honor their fathers and mothers because Jesus said we must honor them if we desire to enter/inherit eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-19
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” rsv​

Please note that many other laws/commandments in the law of Moses are not required by Jesus for us to keep in order to inherit eternal life.

Please note that Jesus does not command us to keep the Sabbath laws or the circumcision laws of the Israelites/Jews in order to inherit eternal life.

Please note that Jesus is God and so it is His commandments that are the commandments of God for Christians.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. rsv

Galatians 2:16
yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified. rsv


1 John 3:21-24
Beloved, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22 and we receive from him whatever we ask, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 23 And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. 24 All who keep his commandments abide in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us. rsv​

Jesus does not require us to keep all the laws of Moses such as the circumcision laws and Sabbath laws in order to inherit/enter eternal life. Why do you?

 

[Jan001]

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Indeed, the law is not void and all of it useful instruction for us.

To which law exactly is Paul referring? It is definitely not the circumcision law in the law of Moses that Paul is writing about in Romans 3:31.

Galatians 5:2-5
I testify again to every man who receives circumcision that he is bound to keep the whole law (of Moses). 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law (of Moses); you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. rsv

Romans 3:21-22
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus,
​

Paul wants us to understand that now it is the following commands in the law of Moses which are required of Christians and Jews.

Deuteronomy 6:4-6
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; 5 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. 6 And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart; rsv​

Leviticus 19:17-18
You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason with your neighbor, lest you bear sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. rsv

Leviticus 19:33-34
When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger who sojourns with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. rsv

​

Jesus tells us which commands/laws from the law of Moses are necessary for us to do in order to inherit/enter into eternal life.

Luke 10:26-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and (you shall love) your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.”

Matthew 19:16-19
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

​

Jesus does not require His followers to obey the circumcision laws and Sabbath laws of the Israelites/Jews in order to inherit eternal life. If it was necessary for us to obey them, He would have specifically told us to obey them in these two Scripture passages.

 

[BobRyan]

Travis93 said: ↑
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Indeed, the law is not void and all of it useful instruction for us.

To which law exactly is Paul referring? (in Romans 3)

It is the LAW of Romans 3 -- that condemns the entire world - both OT and NT as bound for hell ... the second death... and in need of salvation.

Rom 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

That Law
1. Defines what sin is.
2. Condemns the entire world - both NT and OT

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” (Lev 19:18) you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” (Ex 20) also said, “Do not murder.” (Ex 20) Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Eph 6:2 “Honor your father and mother,” (Ex 20:13) which is the first (of the TEN) commandment with promise:

There is no "DELETE the Bible" in those texts.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul wants us to understand that now it is the following commands in the law of Moses which are required of Christians and Jews.

Deuteronomy 6:4-6
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; 5 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. 6 And these words which I command you this day shall be upon your heart; rsv​

Leviticus 19:17-18
You shall not hate your brother in your heart, but you shall reason with your neighbor, lest you bear sin because of him. 18 You shall not take vengeance or bear any grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. rsv

Leviticus 19:33-34
When a stranger sojourns with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger who sojourns with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself; for you were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God. rsv

​

You continue not to list "Do not take the name of the LORD your God in vain" - Ex 20:7.

Is this because you want Christians to engage in that sort of rebellion?

You also did not list any place where Paul tells Christians to "Love God with all your heart". Deut 6:5

Is that because you also preach rebellion against that command after the cross??

At the very least - you should join your own pro-sunday groups in affirming the Commandments of God - instead of finding ways to oppose them.

Maybe Jesus deleted those two commandments? Let's see!!

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[BobRyan]

From http://www.pravoslavieto.com/docs/eng/Orthodox_Catechism_of_Philaret.htm


65. Where may we find the elements of the doctrine of charity?

In the Ten Commandments of the Law of God.



490. You said that these Commandments were given to the people of Israel: must we, then, also walk by them?

We must: for they are in substance the same law which, in the words of St. Paul, has been written in the hearts of all men, that all should walk by it.



491. Did Jesus Christ teach men to walk by the Ten Commandments?

He bade men, if they would attain to everlasting life, to keep the Commandments and taught us to understand and fulfill them more perfectly than had been done before he came. Matt xix. 17, and v.

On the Division of the Commandments into Two Tables.

492. What means the division of the Ten Commandments into two tables?

This: that they contain two kinds of love--love to God, and love to our neighbor; and prescribe two corresponding kinds of duties.

493. Has not Jesus Christ said something of this?

When asked, Which is the great commandment in the law? he replied: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matt. xxii. 36-40.

 

[klutedavid]

Take your time. The simple detail at this point is that you posted something about the 3 divisions in the LAW that we see in the "Baptist Confession of Faith" edited by C.H. Spurgeon and also in the "Westminster Confession of Faith" and also in the SDANEt link site - for the LAW of God as described by Seventh-day Adventists... then I pointed out that the fact that all three sources point to three categories/divisions in the LAW (3 types or category of law) -- is not some sort of contradiction.

Feel free to take your time with that example of harmony between the three of them.

Where your view is challenged -- is that the Bible, and the SDA document and both of your own pro-Sunday documents affirm the Bible detail you are rejecting -- which is that the TEN Commandments are in fact included in the moral law of God AND they are still applicable to the saints today - as we see in Eph 6:2 for example.

Hello Bob.

Sorry for the delay.

May I ask how you have been taught to interpret the following verse, with the emphasis
on the phrase 'the law'.

Matthew 5
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall
pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

 

[BobRyan]

May I ask how you have been taught to interpret the following verse, with the emphasis
on the phrase 'the law'.

Matthew 5
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall
pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

You mean this one?


Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Read the text and accept - all of it -- not just a tiny snip of it. ALL the Bible details. Bible details so incredibly obvious that even your own pro-sunday scholars affirm it.

For example Paul does not say "Love God with all your heart"
and Jesus does not say "Do not take God's name in vain".

And Matt 5:17-19 does not say "ignore the commandments of God", or "I have come to abolish the Commandments of God".

Christ "fulfilled" the moral binding requirements of prescriptive LAW and also of predictive LAW.

So then predictive law such as Passover predicts the Passover Lamb will be Christ. Once fulfilled it does not continue to predict another Christ to come.

But prescriptive law such as the speed limit or thou shalt not kill, or do not take God's name in vain - must be complied with by all - must be fulfilled by all - in compliance. We do not say "as soon as one person keeps the speed limit nobody else need bother with it".

Obviously.

(sooo obvious in fact that even your own pro-sunday scholars get the point)

As you yourself could note in your own quote of it here - Yesterday at 12:35 AM #1498

In our own efforts to keep prescriptive law in true Rev 14:12 and Romans 8:4-16 fashion we do it - having the Holy Spirit in it - Gal 2:20 so that it is no longer I who does it - but rather the Spirit of Christ working out his will in me to comply with the Word of God rather than living in slavish rebellion against God's Word.

And while so-doing we also rely on Christ's perfect compliance with law that we are now also walking in compliance with - to cover our defects and present us as acceptable to God.

The very opposite of trashing God's Word and living in rebellion against it.


So then when it comes to prescriptive law it is not at all shocking to find this --

Rom 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"


Here again no mention of "Love God with all your heart" -- but also no nonsense about "If I Paul do not repeat-it then you go ahead and delete-it".

What we do see is that WE fulfill the law - in complying with it - because we are obligated to obey God's Word instead of living in rebellion against God's Word - when it comes to prescriptive law... moral law... law written on the heart.

But you may say "all that is just so many Bible details -- much to be ignored in favor of man-made tradition to the contrary". And certainly that is a more simplified solution - I will grant you that.

Give me the Bible "instead" -- as they say.

 

[BukiRob]

The meaning of a covenant and its fulfillment/completion

​

Pleroo is NOT defined the way you are trying to force it.

The useage of the greek here is UNMISTAKABLE. It is EXACTLY what I showed you via Strong's. The english usage of fulfill is a poor choice given what the greek is clearly implying and you are steadfastly refusing to see. That link SPECIFICALLY cites Matt 5:17 with the greek translation to mean to CARRY OUT AS A DUTY. To fulfill an OBLIGATION. Messiah could not have been any clearer when he finishes his thought by emphasising the fact that he DID NOT do as you are trying to say.

In Verse 18 Yeshua plainly states: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

So you see Jan, since Heaven and Earth have NOT passed away neither has one stroke of the letter of the Torah passed away either... ALL is NOT accomplished in that Messiah has not yet returned.

​

 

[BukiRob]

Don't drop the mic yet Bob

Genesis 26:4 And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.” What laws were these Bob?

The Sabbath was instituted at creation. In Exodus 20 the commandments were written on stone and given to Israel, yet in Exodus 16 they were commanded to gather manna for the Sabbath.

Exodus 16:22 And so it was, on the sixth day, that they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for each one. And all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses. 23 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord has said: ‘Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.’” 24 So they laid it up till morning, as Moses commanded; and it did not stink, nor were there any worms in it. 25 Then Moses said, “Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field. 26 Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will be none.”
27 Now it happened that some of the people went out on the seventh day to gather, but they found none. 28 And the Lord said to Moses, “How long do you refuse to keep My commandments and My laws? 29 See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.” 30 So the people rested on the seventh day. The law was not given yet, what law were they keeping?

Exodus 20:9“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

I believe the times and the seasons or His designated days were assigned at creation and were built upon over time. Passover is the same day our savior was hung on the cross, Pentecost is the same day as Shavuot. The ninth of Tisha B' av, all of the stuff built upon that day. Those are all days that I am aware of that God built upon His established days, he probably has much more than just those I believe God instituted all of these days at creation and He layers significance on them.

Of course Abraham did not keep the Passover feast as it was relevant to the exodus, I get that, it would be like saying the Ancient Israelites kept the Passover in order to honor the Messiah, however it happened on the same day. I believe they were already honoring the day of feast of Unleavened Bread because of Genesis 18 & 19

Genesis 18 Then the Lord appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. 2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground, 3 and said, “My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant. 4 Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree. 5 And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant. Note: this happened right after God made a covenant with Abraham and his house.

Genesis 19:3 But he insisted strongly; so they turned in to him and entered his house. Then he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.

Exodus 5:1 Afterward Moses and Aaron went in and told Pharaoh, “Thus says the Lord God of Israel: ‘Let My people go, that they may hold a feast to Me in the wilderness.’” What feast was this? This is before Passover Bob.

Exodus 12:16 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation, and on the seventh day there shall be a holy convocation for you. No manner of work shall be done on them; but that which everyone must eat—that only may be prepared by you. 17 So you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this same day I will have brought your armies out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day throughout your generations as an everlasting ordinance. 18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread, until the twenty-first day of the month at evening.

Great but very subtle point! We see glimpses of some form of the Torah in Genesis. We know Sabbath was introduced as a part of creation. We see the sacrificial system in place and Cain murders Able over the rejection of Cain's offering.

Noah was called a blameless man in his generation Gen 6:9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

We are not told what Noah did that made him blameless in his time. CLEARLY Adonia has some form of Torah that he has given man. Man rejected it and pursued perversion and reveled in it. So much so that G-d was grieved for even making creation. We also know that Noah knew what animals were clean and which were unclean.

The point about Abraham is a great one..... Did you know that Shem was still alive when Abraham was alive? In fact Shem outlived Abraham. Shem was still alive when Isaac was ~110. Abraham is a direct descendant of Shem.Some theorize that Shem is actually the King of Salem and is seen as the Priest Melchizedek.

It is equally important when looking at Genesis to recognize that the people in the linage are not there by happenstance. Seth is listed in the genealogy after Abel is murdered and we are told that Adam and Eve had "other sons and daughters" What is so important about Seth? He inherits the priestly role from Adam when Adam dies. Adam was still alive when Lamech is born. In fact, Lamech would have been in his 40's or 50's when Adam finally dies. Seth was still alive when Noah is born and Noah would have been in his early 20's when Seth dies.

While it is certainly possible that Methuselah died in the flood I personally do not think this is the case. I think this for a couple of reasons. #1 Methuselah's father was Enoch and that certainly would have had some effect on his upbringing. Secondly, he was Noah's Grandfather. While it IS possible that Methuselah was not righteous scripture does not say either way. The signs would certainly suggest that he was a righteous man. IN essence we have Adam who was in the garden passing to his righteous son Seth.... who passed the laws, statues, decree and ordinances of G-d down to Enoch and Methuselah who then give it to Noah. The mantle of priesthood passes to Shem whom jewish tradition identifies as the King of Salem, Melchizedek.

I personally believe that Abraham walked in those things because they were passed to him from Shem.