If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BukiRob]

When the Israelites fled out of Egypt they surely didn't stop to rest on the Sabbath. Had the command been given for all the Earth to observe the Sabbath before, Moses would have been obligated to rest while on their journey to the Red Sea.

The children of Israel DID NOT FLEE Egypt. Quite the opposite, they PLUNDERED Egypt

29Now it came about at midnight that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 Pharaoh arose in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians, and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was no home where there was not someone dead. 31 Then he called for Moses and Aaron at night and said, “Rise up, get out from among my people, both you and the sons of Israel; and go, worship the LORD, as you have said. 32 “Take both your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and go, and bless me also.”



Exodus of Israel

33 The Egyptians urged the people, to send them out of the land in haste, for they said, “We will all be dead.” 34 So the people took their dough before it was leavened, with their kneading bowls bound up in the clothes on their shoulders.

35 Now the sons of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, for they had requested from the Egyptians articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; 36 and the LORD had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have their request. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

If G-d provided a Cloud by day and a Pillar of fire by night, Destroyed the pharaoh's army at the crossing of the red sea, then he is/was more than capable of protecting Israel during sabbath

 

[BobRyan]

Great but very subtle point! We see glimpses of some form of the Torah in Genesis. We know Sabbath was introduced as a part of creation. We see the sacrificial system in place and Cain murders Able over the rejection of Cain's offering.

Noah was called a blameless man in his generation Gen 6:9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

We are not told what Noah did that made him blameless in his time. CLEARLY Adonia has some form of Torah that he has given man. Man rejected it and pursued perversion and reveled in it. So much so that G-d was grieved for even making creation. We also know that Noah knew what animals were clean and which were unclean.

The point about Abraham is a great one..... Did you know that Shem was still alive when Abraham was alive? In fact Shem outlived Abraham. Shem was still alive when Isaac was ~110. Abraham is a direct descendant of Shem.Some theorize that Shem is actually the King of Salem and is seen as the Priest Melchizedek.

It is equally important when looking at Genesis to recognize that the people in the linage are not there by happenstance. Seth is listed in the genealogy after Abel is murdered and we are told that Adam and Eve had "other sons and daughters" What is so important about Seth? He inherits the priestly role from Adam when Adam dies. Adam was still alive when Lamech is born. In fact, Lamech would have been in his 40's or 50's when Adam finally dies. Seth was still alive when Noah is born and Noah would have been in his early 20's when Seth dies.

While it is certainly possible that Methuselah died in the flood I personally do not think this is the case. I think this for a couple of reasons. #1 Methuselah's father was Enoch and that certainly would have had some effect on his upbringing. Secondly, he was Noah's Grandfather. While it IS possible that Methuselah was not righteous scripture does not say either way. The signs would certainly suggest that he was a righteous man. IN essence we have Adam who was in the garden passing to his righteous son Seth.... who passed the laws, statues, decree and ordinances of G-d down to Enoch and Methuselah who then give it to Noah. The mantle of priesthood passes to Shem whom jewish tradition identifies as the King of Salem, Melchizedek.

I personally believe that Abraham walked in those things because they were passed to him from Shem.

Well done ! Very well done.

 

[BobRyan]

The children of Israel DID NOT FLEE Egypt. Quite the opposite, they PLUNDERED Egypt

29Now it came about at midnight that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 Pharaoh arose in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians, and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was no home where there was not someone dead. 31 Then he called for Moses and Aaron at night and said, “Rise up, get out from among my people, both you and the sons of Israel; and go, worship the LORD, as you have said. 32 “Take both your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and go, and bless me also.”



Exodus of Israel

33 The Egyptians urged the people, to send them out of the land in haste, for they said, “We will all be dead.” 34 So the people took their dough before it was leavened, with their kneading bowls bound up in the clothes on their shoulders.

35 Now the sons of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, for they had requested from the Egyptians articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; 36 and the LORD had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have their request. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

If G-d provided a Cloud by day and a Pillar of fire by night, Destroyed the pharaoh's army at the crossing of the red sea, then he is/was more than capable of protecting Israel during sabbath

And again. Nice!

 

[BobRyan]

Pleroo is NOT defined the way you are trying to force it.

The useage of the greek here is UNMISTAKABLE. It is EXACTLY what I showed you via Strong's. The english usage of fulfill is a poor choice given what the greek is clearly implying and you are steadfastly refusing to see. That link SPECIFICALLY cites Matt 5:17 with the greek translation to mean to CARRY OUT AS A DUTY. To fulfill an OBLIGATION. Messiah could not have been any clearer when he finishes his thought by emphasising the fact that he DID NOT do as you are trying to say.

In Verse 18 Yeshua plainly states: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

So you see Jan, since Heaven and Earth have NOT passed away neither has one stroke of the letter of the Torah passed away either... ALL is NOT accomplished in that Messiah has not yet returned.

​

What is more - it is clear from Romans 13, James 2, Rom 3:31, Rev 14:12, Eph 6:2 that in fact that Commandments of God remained rather than being "abolished". Which means that Christ's statement that He did not come to abolish the Law is much more "true" than those at war with the Law of God - would like to admit.

 

[BukiRob]

Acts 15 is not a re-write of the entire Bible -- though some do "re-imagine" it that way. It does not include "Love your neighbor as yourself" - it does not include "Love God with all your heart" -- it does not include "Honor your father and mother" it does not include "Do not take God's name in vain".

And as Acts 15 points out - the "solution" to the problem is to avoid all the man-made-traditions that they are trying to invent on the spot (such as the fake rule that gentiles must be circumcised to be saved - a rule never found in OT or NT) -- and stick with the actual Bible where "Every Sabbath Moses is heard in the synagogues" even by Gentiles as we see in Acts 13 - Sabbath after Sabbath -- and as we see in Acts 17 Sabbath after Sabbath after Sabbath -- and as we see in Acts 18:4 "EVERY Sabbath" - and in those cases it is not merely Moses - but also full Gospel preaching.

Guys Acts 15 plainly states what the debate is all about. Yet people try to force it to say other things. Scripture interprets it clearly itself. We are plainly told what the debate was about in verse 1.
1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Quite simply the debate is over WHO CAN BE SAVED. The men from Judea were teaching that ONLY a JEW can be saved. The act of circumcision and walking in the law for a gentile is by default conversion to becoming Jewish.

 

[BukiRob]

[/QUOTE]

If Paul really taught against the law I don't have any reservations about rejecting him as a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:1-5). I couldn't care less what some mere man has to say if they speak against the law. The law is going to be enforced on all mankind in the future (Isaiah 2:2-3, Micah 4:1-2). We will all keep the feasts such as the feast of tabernacles (Zechariah 14:16) and sabbaths (Isaiah 66:23). Circumcision will be mandatory to enter God's sanctuary (Ezekiel 44:9) and dietary laws will be enforced (Isaiah 66:15-17). God wants the gentiles to keep sabbath as well (Isaiah 56:6). There is to be one law for Jew and Gentile (Leviticus 24:22). Jesus preached the law (Matthew 5:17-19) and said to teach everything he said to all nations (Matthew 28:20).

With that said, I interpret Acts 15:1 as them saying that circumcision being a prerequisite to getting saved in the first place. However, Abraham was saved (Genesis 15:6) years before being circumcised (Genesis 17:24), so from this I don't think it's necessary for a new believer to do it right away.

When Paul lists sin for the gentiles, he's affirming the law. Here's some examples.
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols (Leviticus 17:7), and from blood (Leviticus 17:10), and from things strangled (Genesis 9:4), and from fornication (Leviticus 18): from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators (Leviticus 18), nor idolaters (Exodus 20:3-5), nor adulterers (Exodus 20:14), nor effeminate (Deuteronomy 22:5 men wearing women's clothes would qualify as "effeminate" I think), nor abusers of themselves with mankind (Leviticus 18:23 probably talking about homosexuals here like in Romans 1:27-28), Nor thieves (Exodus 20:15), nor covetous (Exodus 20:17), nor drunkards (Deuteronomy 21:20), nor revilers (Exodus 22:28), nor extortioners (Exodus 22:25, Leviticus 19:13, Deuteronomy 25:13-16), shall inherit the kingdom of God.[/QUOTE]


Yep. Spot on. Interestingly enough those items James speak of that the gentiles were to abstain from (IMMEDIATELY) ALL dealt with Pagan Idolatry which often included Temple prostitutes. Israel was cast out of the land for one sin in particular IDOLATRY to the jewish mind, this was the biggest sin you could commit. As a result this was something the Elders and James needed to address immediately. A modern view on this would be when an unchurched person comes to Messiah as a part of their being discipling, the body deals with the "weighter sins" first and this is what James is passing along. Clearly he is NOT saying "torah is not for gentiles" because as he continues his toughts on what to do with the gentiles he specifically states that " 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

He mentions Torah is read every sabbath a CLEAR indication that James anticipates the gentiles to be in attendance ON SABBATH at their local synagogue!

 

[BobRyan]

Guys Acts 15 plainly states what the debate is all about. Yet people try to force it to say other things. Scripture interprets it clearly itself. We are plainly told what the debate was about in verse 1.
1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

Quite simply the debate is over WHO CAN BE SAVED. The men from Judea were teaching that ONLY a JEW can be saved. The act of circumcision and walking in the law for a gentile is by default conversion to becoming Jewish.

True and as we see in Acts 13, and in Acts 17 and in Acts 18:4 not even the non-Christian Jews were going to such extremes - as to God's acceptance of gentiles. They may have treated them as second-class saints but they did not declare that they could not be saved - rather they welcomed them as fellow worshipers in the synagogues. Leaving the Christian Jews with no excuse at all for their man-made-error.

 

[BukiRob]

What is more - it is clear from Romans 13, James 2, Rom 3:31, Rev 14:12, Eph 6:2 that in fact that Commandments of God remained rather than being "abolished". Which means that Christ's statement that He did not come to abolish the Law is much more "true" than those at war with the Law of God - would like to admit.

One can not possibly read the book of 1 John and then still believe that the Torah is not for ALL follower of Messiah. Particularly so when you have an understanding of what scripture calls Torah.

We are told to WALK IN THE LIGHT.... the Torah is Light.... it is a LAMP FOR OUR FEET GUIDING US WHERE TO WALK. Torah is TRUTH. Torah is the "way in which a man should go.

Folks this is real simple. Either G-d is who is said he is ""For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed." or he isn't. Since G-d himself declares he does not change, since both in the OT and the New the Torah is called WAIT FOR IT..... HOLY

Then what in the world would any believer want to suggest or argue that something that scripture declares is HOLY, a LAMP providing LIGHT is not for today? Particularly when John tells us THAT IS WHERE WE WILL FIND MESSIAH. 1 John 1: 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

There are only 2 options here. We either are walking in the light (TORAH) or, we are walking in darkness (doing what seems right in your own eyes) John tells us that when we WALK in the Light that Messiah himself is in the light. (messiah himself is in the Torah) and that as a result we have fellowship and the blood of Yeshua cleanses us from all sin.

The issue here for most is not a doctrinal or a interpretation issue. Its an issue of the flesh. Its the issue of the battle between the carnal, fleshly nature that is in open rebellion with G-d vs the spiritual nature which wants to please G-d.

 

[klutedavid]

You mean this one?


Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Read the text and accept - all of it -- not just a tiny snip of it. ALL the Bible details. Bible details so incredibly obvious that even your own pro-sunday scholars affirm it.

For example Paul does not say "Love God with all your heart"
and Jesus does not say "Do not take God's name in vain".

And Matt 5:17-19 does not say "ignore the commandments of God", or "I have come to abolish the Commandments of God".

Christ "fulfilled" the moral binding requirements of prescriptive LAW and also of predictive LAW.

So then predictive law such as Passover predicts the Passover Lamb will be Christ. Once fulfilled it does not continue to predict another Christ to come.

But prescriptive law such as the speed limit or thou shalt not kill, or do not take God's name in vain - must be complied with by all - must be fulfilled by all - in compliance. We do not say "as soon as one person keeps the speed limit nobody else need bother with it".

Obviously.

(sooo obvious in fact that even your own pro-sunday scholars get the point)

As you yourself could note in your own quote of it here - Yesterday at 12:35 AM #1498

In our own efforts to keep prescriptive law in true Rev 14:12 and Romans 8:4-16 fashion we do it - having the Holy Spirit in it - Gal 2:20 so that it is no longer I who does it - but rather the Spirit of Christ working out his will in me to comply with the Word of God rather than living in slavish rebellion against God's Word.

And while so-doing we also rely on Christ's perfect compliance with law that we are now also walking in compliance with - to cover our defects and present us as acceptable to God.

The very opposite of trashing God's Word and living in rebellion against it.


So then when it comes to prescriptive law it is not at all shocking to find this --

Rom 8
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

Rom 13
8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Rev 14:12 "The saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"


Here again no mention of "Love God with all your heart" -- but also no nonsense about "If I Paul do not repeat-it then you go ahead and delete-it".

What we do see is that WE fulfill the law - in complying with it - because we are obligated to obey God's Word instead of living in rebellion against God's Word - when it comes to prescriptive law... moral law... law written on the heart.

But you may say "all that is just so many Bible details -- much to be ignored in favor of man-made tradition to the contrary". And certainly that is a more simplified solution - I will grant you that.

Give me the Bible "instead" -- as they say.

Hello Bob.

I asked a very simple question, i.e., how you read the verse (Matthew 5:17). You replied with a
an instruction to read the text and accept 'all of it". That is exactly how I interpret the scripture
Bob, I have never followed any church tradition to date, I just read the text. Watch how I read
that verse (Matthew 5:17), and you will notice that there is nothing up my sleeves.

Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

The phrase, 'the law and prophets', just about includes every book in the entire Old Testament. So Jesus
was saying that He came to fulfill the entire Old Testament, most certainly not to destroy the Old Testament.

Does everyone agree with this interpretation so far?

Now without waving a magic wand, we now read the next verse, which will add some context. Do you
like that word 'context', Bob? Many interpretations will ignore the context and wander down a path to oblivion.

Matthew 5
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass
from the law till all is fulfilled.

A very straightforward verse, the law will not pass until 'all is fulfilled'. Not one letter of the law will pass
until the time of fulfillment. The world could end Bob, but the law still stands regardless, until that fulfillment
event occurs. The phrase, 'the law', always refers to the entire law found in the Old Testament. Jesus did say in
the previous verse, 'the law or the prophets'. Any narrow interpretation of 'the law' is to be avoided.

Well do we have enough context yet to affirm that our interpretation is upright?

Well let's try the next verse and check that this verse follows our interpretation.

Matthew 5
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called
least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom
of heaven.

A very simple verse, you can break one of the least of the commandments but still enter heaven! Amen to that
Bob. Anyone who performs these commandments and also teaches them, will be called great in heaven. Some
interpretations have already received a very firm correction at this point in time. Some of the multitude of
interpretations available these days, will tell you that you are bound by the ten commandments at this point.

This is not what Jesus actually said, this alteration of the text is also to be rejected. Further reading in this same
chapter, sharply corrects the idea that Jesus is talking about the ten commandments here.

Anyone who knows the Old Testament well, will understand that God gave other commandments besides
just the ten commandments. I will remind anyone out there, Jesus said you can break a smaller commandment
and still succeed, and that's what really matters. The entire Old Testament is in force until the time of the
fulfillment. Jesus is not talking about a fulfillment of just the prophets predictions, Jesus is fulfilling the entire
Old Testament, and every single verse therein.

So do you agree with this interpretation or not, Bob? I have not deviated from the text at any point.

The text does not state the following Bob.

Christ "fulfilled" the moral binding requirements of prescriptive LAW and also of predictive LAW.

The insertion of the word 'moral' is foreign to this text. The usage of terms 'prescriptive' and 'predictive'
causes an unnecessary restriction to the interpretation of the text. Sounds like the jargon found in a
church handbook, one with a title, 'How our church reads the Bible'. Jesus said He fulfilled the law and
the prophets, not just the law.

You said.

Obviously. (sooo obvious in fact that even your own pro-sunday scholars get the point)

The pro-sunday scholars never really understood the text. The Bible teaches a very simple message Bob,
alas, there are a thousand different messages being broadcast today, and they are all wrong. Mainly
because they do not read what the text actually says, they prefer the handbook to the Bible.

Not sure what you mean here?

Here again no mention of "Love God with all your heart" -- but also no nonsense about "If I Paul
do not repeat-it then you go ahead and delete-it".

You may need to rewrite this so I can understand what you are trying to say.

 

[Travis93]

Great but very subtle point! We see glimpses of some form of the Torah in Genesis. We know Sabbath was introduced as a part of creation. We see the sacrificial system in place and Cain murders Able over the rejection of Cain's offering.

Noah was called a blameless man in his generation Gen 6:9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

We are not told what Noah did that made him blameless in his time. CLEARLY Adonia has some form of Torah that he has given man. Man rejected it and pursued perversion and reveled in it. So much so that G-d was grieved for even making creation. We also know that Noah knew what animals were clean and which were unclean.

The point about Abraham is a great one..... Did you know that Shem was still alive when Abraham was alive? In fact Shem outlived Abraham. Shem was still alive when Isaac was ~110. Abraham is a direct descendant of Shem.Some theorize that Shem is actually the King of Salem and is seen as the Priest Melchizedek.

It is equally important when looking at Genesis to recognize that the people in the linage are not there by happenstance. Seth is listed in the genealogy after Abel is murdered and we are told that Adam and Eve had "other sons and daughters" What is so important about Seth? He inherits the priestly role from Adam when Adam dies. Adam was still alive when Lamech is born. In fact, Lamech would have been in his 40's or 50's when Adam finally dies. Seth was still alive when Noah is born and Noah would have been in his early 20's when Seth dies.

While it is certainly possible that Methuselah died in the flood I personally do not think this is the case. I think this for a couple of reasons. #1 Methuselah's father was Enoch and that certainly would have had some effect on his upbringing. Secondly, he was Noah's Grandfather. While it IS possible that Methuselah was not righteous scripture does not say either way. The signs would certainly suggest that he was a righteous man. IN essence we have Adam who was in the garden passing to his righteous son Seth.... who passed the laws, statues, decree and ordinances of G-d down to Enoch and Methuselah who then give it to Noah. The mantle of priesthood passes to Shem whom jewish tradition identifies as the King of Salem, Melchizedek.

I personally believe that Abraham walked in those things because they were passed to him from Shem.

Sabbath (Genesis 2:2-3), animal sacrifice (Genesis 4:4), clean and unclean animals (Genesis 7:2), building an altar (Genesis 8:2), not eating blood (Genesis 9:4), murder (Genesis 9:6), tithing (Genesis 14:20), circumcision (Genesis 17:10-14), feast of unleavened bread (Genesis 19:3), homosexuality (Genesis 19:5-7), theft (Genesis 21:25), idolatry (Genesis 35:2), brother's obligation to have children with dead brother's wife (Genesis 38:8), adultery (Genesis 39:9). It's fascinating looking through Genesis looking for the laws, I'm sure more can be found with a more careful study, but I was just skimming through.

 

[BobRyan]

Hello Bob.

I asked a very simple question, i.e., how you read the verse (Matthew 5:17). You replied with a
an instruction to read the text and accept 'all of it". That is exactly how I interpret the scripture
Bob, I have never followed any church tradition to date,

Thanks klutedavid.

i was hoping you would allow yourself to go there - to see all the details - as I laid them out in that post and deal with the actual details rather than retreating to a tiny snip and consistently ignoring pretty much the entire chapter you find it in.

I just read the text.

Thanks.

Me too. I even highlighted the sections that I thought you might be reluctant to even quote.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5
17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

The phrase, 'the law and prophets', just about includes every book in the entire Old Testament.

True. Jesus did not come to delete the Bible.

Matthew 5
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass
from the law till all is fulfilled.

A very straightforward verse, the law will not pass until 'all is fulfilled'. Not one letter of the law will pass
until the time of fulfillment. The world could end Bob,

Does this mean that you think that when the world end ... that then you can take God's name in vain or did you have some other point?

Matthew 5
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called
least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom
of heaven.

A very simple verse, you can break one of the least of the commandments but still enter heaven! Amen to that
Bob.

"And so teaches others" -- in heaven they know of all the saved... and all the lost... and even the devil. All are known in heaven. Currently the "least" in that list - is the devil.

Jesus said you can break a smaller commandment
and still succeed, and that's what really matters.

It is impressive that you have just bent the text to "speak its opposite".

Jesus is not blessing law breakers and those that teach that others should break the law - he is condemning them.

Rather than promising them "more heaven" he is promising that those who dwell in heaven will consider the wicked that are of that sort - to be the least.

The entire Old Testament is in force until the time of the
fulfillment. Jesus is not talking about a fulfillment of just the prophets predictions, Jesus is fulfilling the entire
Old Testament, and every single verse therein.

Is this another point where you are trying to build the case for taking God's name in vain?? eventually?? You start to go down that road then stop??

You said.

The pro-sunday scholars never really understood the text.

Pro Bible Sabbath scholars do.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[klutedavid]

Great but very subtle point! We see glimpses of some form of the Torah in Genesis. We know Sabbath was introduced as a part of creation. We see the sacrificial system in place and Cain murders Able over the rejection of Cain's offering.

Noah was called a blameless man in his generation Gen 6:9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God.

We are not told what Noah did that made him blameless in his time. CLEARLY Adonia has some form of Torah that he has given man. Man rejected it and pursued perversion and reveled in it. So much so that G-d was grieved for even making creation. We also know that Noah knew what animals were clean and which were unclean.

The point about Abraham is a great one..... Did you know that Shem was still alive when Abraham was alive? In fact Shem outlived Abraham. Shem was still alive when Isaac was ~110. Abraham is a direct descendant of Shem.Some theorize that Shem is actually the King of Salem and is seen as the Priest Melchizedek.

It is equally important when looking at Genesis to recognize that the people in the linage are not there by happenstance. Seth is listed in the genealogy after Abel is murdered and we are told that Adam and Eve had "other sons and daughters" What is so important about Seth? He inherits the priestly role from Adam when Adam dies. Adam was still alive when Lamech is born. In fact, Lamech would have been in his 40's or 50's when Adam finally dies. Seth was still alive when Noah is born and Noah would have been in his early 20's when Seth dies.

While it is certainly possible that Methuselah died in the flood I personally do not think this is the case. I think this for a couple of reasons. #1 Methuselah's father was Enoch and that certainly would have had some effect on his upbringing. Secondly, he was Noah's Grandfather. While it IS possible that Methuselah was not righteous scripture does not say either way. The signs would certainly suggest that he was a righteous man. IN essence we have Adam who was in the garden passing to his righteous son Seth.... who passed the laws, statues, decree and ordinances of G-d down to Enoch and Methuselah who then give it to Noah. The mantle of priesthood passes to Shem whom jewish tradition identifies as the King of Salem, Melchizedek.

I personally believe that Abraham walked in those things because they were passed to him from Shem.

Hello Rob.

You said the following.

CLEARLY Adonia has some form of Torah that he has given man. Man rejected it and pursued
perversion and reveled in it. So much so that G-d...

Hello Rob.

Adonia should be Adonai.

The Torah is the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament.

You stated.

We know Sabbath was introduced as a part of creation

We do not know for certain whether the sabbath was given before Exodus.
This is mere speculation rather than historical fact. No ancient civilizations ever mention
a sabbath, I seriously doubt your premise.

You seem to be following some tradition, a tradition introduced by the Jews concerning uttering
the sacred name of God, i.e., G-d?

If so, the sacred name of God in the Old Testament, is the very name that God gave to Moses.
That sacred name is the tetragrammaton, i.e., YHWH, not the appalling English translation found
in many Bibles, i.e., 'God' or 'Lord'. The translation of YHWH into 'God' or 'Lord' must be avoided.

These two terms are general terms for a divinity. The Hebrew form of YHWH is the sacred name
of God. Chalk and cheese.

Whether the Torah, or some form of it existed before it was written, is pure speculation.
This is a paradox that your proposing Rob. The Torah cannot exist before the Torah has been
written.

 

[klutedavid]

Thanks klutedavid.

i was hoping you would allow yourself to go there - to see all the details - as I laid them out in that post and deal with the actual details rather than retreating to a tiny snip and consistently ignoring pretty much the entire chapter you find it in.




Thanks.

Me too. I even highlighted the sections that I thought you might be reluctant to even quote.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.





True. Jesus did not come to delete the Bible.




Does this mean that you think that when the world end ... that then you can take God's name in vain or did you have some other point?





"And so teaches others" -- in heaven they know of all the saved... and all the lost... and even the devil. All are known in heaven. Currently the "least" in that list - is the devil.



It is impressive that you have just bent the text to "speak its opposite".

Jesus is not blessing law breakers and those that teach that others should break the law - he is condemning them.

Rather than promising them "more heaven" he is promising that those who dwell in heaven will consider the wicked that are of that sort - to be the least.



Is this another point where you are trying to build the case for taking God's name in vain?? eventually?? You start to go down that road then stop??




Pro Bible Sabbath scholars do.


in Christ,

Bob

Hello Bob.

Thanks for the reply.

Your post is very large and this will take time, I will reply soon.

 

[Jan001]

You continue not to list "Do not take the name of the LORD your God in vain" - Ex 20:7.

Is this because you want Christians to engage in that sort of rebellion?

You also did not list any place where Paul tells Christians to "Love God with all your heart". Deut 6:5

Is that because you also preach rebellion against that command after the cross??

At the very least - you should join your own pro-sunday groups in affirming the Commandments of God - instead of finding ways to oppose them.

Maybe Jesus deleted those two commandments? Let's see!!

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

There are many, many laws/commandments in the Bible, but not all laws/commandments are valid for all people everywhere at all times.

Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses. Jesus finished the law of Moses. The law of Moses is now obsolete. Every jot and tittle in the law of Moses was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. John 19:30, Hebrews 8:13


However, specific moral laws/commandments are valid for all people at all times and Jesus retained these in His NC. It can be difficult for people to distinguish which laws/commandments in the Scriptures are valid for all people everywhere at all times and which laws/commandments are valid for only a specific people for a specific period of time.


Christians know that they should not take the name of the Lord in vain! If a person loves God as Jesus commanded him to do, he will not take the Lord's name in vain. He also will not mock God. He also will not deny Him.


Jesus said exactly which ones of the Ten Commandments of the Jews that we all, whether Jew or non-Jew, must obey if we want to enter/inherit eternal life.

Matthew 19:16-20
And behold, one came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which?” And Jesus said, “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have observed; what do I still lack?” rsv​

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read?” 27 And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.” 28 And he said to him, “You have answered right; do this, and you will live.” rsv​

Jesus never commands anyone, either Jew or Gentile/Greek, to keep the Sabbath in order to be approved to inherit/enter into eternal life. This is because He is Lord of the Sabbath and He is not going to keep the Israelite/Jewish Sabbath observances in His New Covenant.


His NC is for all peoples of all nations, not just for the Jews. Matthew 28:18-19 The other nations were not ever commanded to keep the Sabbath or the dietary laws, etc., of the Israelites/Jews, and so these peoples from other nations will never be commanded to keep the legal demands of the Jews' Sabbath laws, dietary laws, and circumcision laws. Jesus nailed all of these legal demands to the cross, triumphing over them and making them obsolete/no longer used. Hebrews 8:13, Colossians 2:11-1


Jesus teaches the Jews about their own Sabbath

Mark 2:27-28
One sabbath he was going through the grainfields; and as they made their way his disciples began to pluck heads of grain. 24 And the Pharisees said to him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?” 25 And he said to them, “Have you never read what David did, when he was in need and was hungry, he and those who were with him: 26 how he entered the house of God, when Abi′athar was high priest, and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and also gave it to those who were with him?” 27 And he said to them, “The sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath; 28 so the Son of man is lord even of the sabbath.”​

Christians have their public worship on the first day of the week. Jesus Christ told them to do this or else the apostles would not have worshiped God on the first day of every week. Non-biblical historical records state that Jesus Christ taught the apostles to worship on the first day of the week, which they called the Lord's Day, and these records also state why He taught them to worship God on the first day of every week.

Acts 20:7
On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them, intending to depart on the morrow; and he prolonged his speech until midnight. rsv​

Paul writes to the Corinthian Church to tell them to take up collections on the first day of every week at their public worship gatherings and to save them until he comes to get them.

1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each of you is to put something aside and store it up, as he may prosper, so that contributions need not be made when I come. rsv ​

The writer of Hebrews strongly advises us to not miss the public worship gathering of the Christians which we know is on the first day of every week, also called the Lord's Day. Revelation 1:10

Hebrews 10:23-27
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, 25 not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near. 26 For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries. rsv
​

I believe it is necessary for Christians to keep all Ten Commandments of the Christians and I linked to them for your reference, but I do not believe that Christians need to keep all Ten Commandments of the Israelites/Jews.

 

[Jan001]

Pleroo is NOT defined the way you are trying to force it.

The useage of the greek here is UNMISTAKABLE. It is EXACTLY what I showed you via Strong's. The english usage of fulfill is a poor choice given what the greek is clearly implying and you are steadfastly refusing to see. That link SPECIFICALLY cites Matt 5:17 with the greek translation to mean to CARRY OUT AS A DUTY. To fulfill an OBLIGATION. Messiah could not have been any clearer when he finishes his thought by emphasising the fact that he DID NOT do as you are trying to say.

In Verse 18 Yeshua plainly states: "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

So you see Jan, since Heaven and Earth have NOT passed away neither has one stroke of the letter of the Torah passed away either... ALL is NOT accomplished in that Messiah has not yet returned.​

​

Jesus finished the law of Moses when He died on the cross. John 19:28-30

Since you are Messianic, perhaps you know that the temple and the city of Jerusalem were the Jews' world/heaven and earth.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Hyper/0000_geiser_heaven-earth_01.html


The Jew's world/heaven and earth (their temple and city) passed away in 70 A.D. just as Jesus prophesied.

Luke 21:20
But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. rsv

Luke 11:49-52
Therefore also the Wisdom of God said, ‘I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and persecute,’ 50 that the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechari′ah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, it shall be required of this generation. 52 Woe to you lawyers! for you have taken away the key of knowledge; you did not enter yourselves, and you hindered those who were entering.” rsv

Luke 19:41-44
1 And when he drew near and saw the city (of Jerusalem) he wept over it, 42 saying, “Would that even today you knew the things that make for peace! But now they are hid from your eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon you, when your enemies will cast up a bank about you and surround you, and hem you in on every side, 44 and dash you to the ground, you and your children within you, and they will not leave one stone upon another in you; because you did not know the time of your visitation.” rsv

Matthew 24:1-2
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. 2 But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another, that will not be thrown down.” rsv

​

The following were both written shortly before Paul's martyrdom in the mid-60s. We know that the destruction of Jerusalem, its temple, and its people were completely finished in 70 A.D.

1 Corinthians 7:31
and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the form of this world is passing away. rsv

Hebrews 8:13
In speaking of a new covenant he treats the first as obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old (Old Covenant) is ready to vanish away.
​

The heaven and the earth of the Jews (their temple and city) passed away/vanished away in 70 A.D.

 

[BobRyan]

There are many, many laws/commandments in the Bible, but not all laws/commandments are valid for all people everywhere at all times.

Jesus fulfilled the law of Moses. Jesus finished the law of Moses. The law of Moses is now obsolete. Every jot and tittle in the law of Moses was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. John 19:30, Hebrews 8:13


However, specific moral laws/commandments are valid for all people at all times

Even your own church upholds the TEN Commandments in that list.

And the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 writes the moral law of God on the heart and mind - the LAW known to Jeremiah.

 

[klutedavid]

Thanks klutedavid.

i was hoping you would allow yourself to go there - to see all the details - as I laid them out in that post and deal with the actual details rather than retreating to a tiny snip and consistently ignoring pretty much the entire chapter you find it in.




Thanks.

Me too. I even highlighted the sections that I thought you might be reluctant to even quote.

Matt 5
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.





True. Jesus did not come to delete the Bible.




Does this mean that you think that when the world end ... that then you can take God's name in vain or did you have some other point?





"And so teaches others" -- in heaven they know of all the saved... and all the lost... and even the devil. All are known in heaven. Currently the "least" in that list - is the devil.



It is impressive that you have just bent the text to "speak its opposite".

Jesus is not blessing law breakers and those that teach that others should break the law - he is condemning them.

Rather than promising them "more heaven" he is promising that those who dwell in heaven will consider the wicked that are of that sort - to be the least.



Is this another point where you are trying to build the case for taking God's name in vain?? eventually?? You start to go down that road then stop??




Pro Bible Sabbath scholars do.


in Christ,

Bob

Hello Bob.

Here is what you printed in your last post.

Matthew 5
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments,
and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

What happened to the highlight pen you are using, run out of ink?

Here let me finish the job for you.

Matthew 5
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments,
and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven;

Better to follow what Jesus said and word for word.

Does this mean that you think that when the world end ... that then you can
take God's name in vain or did you have some other point?

The point is that Jesus already fulfilled all things, the world does not need to end,
if you read what He said carefully.

For some reason you did not notice that 95% percent of the written law has
been annulled. For some strange reason you still think that there is a 5%
of the law that is still in force?

No so Bob, the Old Covenant itself including the entire law system was retired.
The older commandments were replaced with a new set of commandments.

No longer do we obey the commandments to achieve a self righteousness before
God, because we have the righteousness of Christ. We are a new creation, we
have been released from the law of sin and death, in Christ we are free.

 

[klutedavid]

Even your own church upholds the TEN Commandments in that list.

And the NEW Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31-33 writes the moral law of God on the heart and mind - the LAW known to Jeremiah.

Hello Bob.

The text (Jeremiah 31) does not mention 'moral law', that is SDA theology speaking.
Because God writes the law in your heart with the Holy Spirit, you do not need the
older written law.

 

[Travis93]

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is all one complete thought, not two separate prophesies. God will write the Torah on the hearts of Israel and Judah and everyone will know God and not need to teach others about it, meaning no need for missionaries.

Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the Lord, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The Lord of hosts is his name:
Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the Lord, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.
Jeremiah 31:38 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the city shall be built to the Lord from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
Jeremiah 31:39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
Jeremiah 31:40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the Lord; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

What's more, at this time they will be back in their promised land, never to be removed again. This didn't happen in the first century, so it has to be a future even, just like the rest of the new covenant.

 

[Bob S]

The children of Israel DID NOT FLEE Egypt. Quite the opposite, they PLUNDERED Egypt

29Now it came about at midnight that the LORD struck all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh who sat on his throne to the firstborn of the captive who was in the dungeon, and all the firstborn of cattle. 30 Pharaoh arose in the night, he and all his servants and all the Egyptians, and there was a great cry in Egypt, for there was no home where there was not someone dead. 31 Then he called for Moses and Aaron at night and said, “Rise up, get out from among my people, both you and the sons of Israel; and go, worship the LORD, as you have said. 32 “Take both your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and go, and bless me also.”



Exodus of Israel

33 The Egyptians urged the people, to send them out of the land in haste, for they said, “We will all be dead.” 34 So the people took their dough before it was leavened, with their kneading bowls bound up in the clothes on their shoulders.

35 Now the sons of Israel had done according to the word of Moses, for they had requested from the Egyptians articles of silver and articles of gold, and clothing; 36 and the LORD had given the people favor in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they let them have their request. Thus they plundered the Egyptians.

If G-d provided a Cloud by day and a Pillar of fire by night, Destroyed the pharaoh's army at the crossing of the red sea, then he is/was more than capable of protecting Israel during sabbath

Anything to avoid the real truth. Two entirely different issues. Great debating skills partner.