If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[BobRyan]

So picking grain is ok, but starting afire to warm yourself is not? Makes no sense to me.

Also why didn't Christ just use your words when the Pharisees accused his disciples of sin? Why did he go into the thing about David eating the unlawful bread?

Jesus said that they "condemned the innocent" when they condemned the disciples. And not once did He argue "Because we don't need no Sabbath" -- nor was he ever accused of claiming that the Sabbath did not exist. Not even by His enemies.

What Jesus argues - is a point that even if they were so confused about their own man-made-traditions-and-restrictions being equal to God's Word on this -- could they not see that God allowed for basic necessity even on Sabbath in the case of David eating from the bread in the Temple.

I don't see why I should observe Sabbath. I see liberty, forgive my ignorance but I must go that way because I don't understand any of this OT law stuff.
?

All the NT uses the OT as its scripture.

Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by Paul were SO"
Luke 24:27 "Beginning with Moses and ALL the prophets He explained the things concerning Himself from ALL of scripture"
2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine"

BEFORE the Cross Jesus said "sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD is truth" John 17:17

There is no Christianity that can survive on the doctrine of "Give Me the Bible but NOT the Words IN the Bible" as I am sure we both agree.

And in Is 66:23 we see that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- remains -- from what it was in Psalms 96 in this case.

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

 

[BobRyan]

Why didn't Jesus just say this in his defense?

"Is there some text in the Bible that says that if you are walking an eating the heads of wheat as you pass through a field on Sabbath - you are to be stoned???"

Again look at Jesus' teaching in Mark 7:6-13 -- there we see Jesus pointing out that the Jews considered their own word, their own traditions, their own commandments of men - to be superior to the Bible.

And that is why you don't see the sort of response by Christ - because they would say (as do many Catholics today) that their traditions were above having to be sustained/proven by the Bible.

As an exercise for the reader - give it a shot... take Christ's model in Mark 7 for a few days and see if things don't pan out much better coming at it from that direction.
Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

instead of affirming the act of breaking one of God's Commandments - Jesus condemns it... 'Sola scriptura"

 

[W2L]

Jesus said that they "condemned the innocent" when they condemned the disciples. And not once did He argue "Because we don't need no Sabbath" -- nor was he ever accused of claiming that the Sabbath did not exist. Not even by His enemies.

What Jesus argues - is a point that even if they were so confused about their own man-made-traditions-and-restrictions being equal to God's Word on this -- could they not see that God allowed for basic necessity even on Sabbath in the case of David eating from the bread in the Temple.




All the NT uses the OT as its scripture.

Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by Paul were SO"
Luke 24:27 "Beginning with Moses and ALL the prophets He explained the things concerning Himself from ALL of scripture"
2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine"

BEFORE the Cross Jesus said "sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD is truth" John 17:17

There is no Christianity that can survive on the doctrine of "Give Me the Bible but NOT the Words IN the Bible" as I am sure we both agree.

And in Is 66:23 we see that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- remains -- from what it was in Psalms 96 in this case.

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"From Sabbath to Sabbath" could mean something different than you think. It all seems like pretty hard to understand stuff to me. Hebrews 4 is not talking about a certain day of the week, that seems clear. Therefore "from Sabbath to Sabbath" might not mean what you think.

Anyway, what would you have me do? Pick between you, the orthodox and the other denominations? Nope, not going down that messy road. I grew up in a Church of Christ but I don't even follow them. I'm just some guy, who follows the Word best I can, and I'm not going to allow you or any other denomination throw a brand on me, because I think theology is nothing but a heartache. I keep it simple.

 

[W2L]

Again look at Jesus' teaching in Mark 7:6-13 -- there we see Jesus pointing out that the Jews considered their own word, their own traditions, their own commandments of men - to be superior to the Bible.

And that is why you don't see the sort of response by Christ - because they would say (as do many Catholics today) that their traditions were above having to be sustained/proven by the Bible.

As an exercise for the reader - give it a shot... take Christ's model in Mark 7 for a few days and see if things don't pan out much better coming at it from that direction.

I don't follow traditions, I just follow scripture, as best as my limitations allow. GOd will judge.

 

[W2L]

All this contention over Catholicism, Orthodox, Protestant and SDA. How the heck do you guys live like this? I'm setting myself free. I know Galatians 5 is about the law, more specifically about circumcision, but I see bondage in all this religious division as well and I declare liberty from it. I have the commands of Christ. I know what is right and wrong. I know how to pray. I know about love. Religion however has no pace in my heart. I'm setting myself free from all that mess.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Amein.

 

[1John2:4]

Amen brother, amen.

Thanks but I'm a sister I know naming myself a Bible verse makes it a little confusing.

 

[1John2:4]

So picking grain is ok, but starting afire to warm yourself is not? Makes no sense to me.

Also why didn't Christ just use your words when the Pharisees accused his disciples of sin? Why did he go into the thing about David eating the unlawful bread? Look, gathering grain is work. I think you are just trying to justify Sabbath keeping, and that's ok with me. I however don't see how any of this makes sense, and I don't see why I should observe Sabbath. I see liberty, forgive my ignorance but I must go that way because I don't understand any of this OT law stuff. I do however see that we are commanded to abstain from lust, lust for power and wealth. I see also that if I love others as myself I wont force them to work 7 days a week, nor will I exploit them in any way. Forgive my ignorance but I follow what I see and that's all I can do.

Why didn't Jesus just say this in his defense?

Maybe the guy picking up sticks wanted to start his fire to work. Perhaps he had a rebellious heart and God wanted to get rid of him so that the camp would not turn others away from Gods commandments. We only know it was Gods choice to have him stoned to death. I don't belive he was just trying to warm himself. Plus stoning someone to death for not keeping Sabbath, that probably really sent a message to the Isrealites.

 

[BobRyan]

Why didn't Jesus just say this in his defense?

"Is there some text in the Bible that says that if you are walking an eating the heads of wheat as you pass through a field on Sabbath - you are to be stoned???"

Again look at Jesus' teaching in Mark 7:6-13 -- there we see Jesus pointing out that the Jews considered their own word, their own traditions, their own commandments of men - to be superior to the Bible.

And that is why you don't see the sort of response by Christ - because they would say (as do many Catholics today) that their traditions were above having to be sustained/proven by the Bible.

As an exercise for the reader - give it a shot... take Christ's model in Mark 7 for a few days and see if things don't pan out much better coming at it from that direction.
Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

instead of affirming the act of breaking one of God's Commandments - Jesus condemns it... 'Sola scriptura"

I don't follow traditions, I just follow scripture, as best as my limitations allow. GOd will judge.

So then -- the "details" in Mark 7.

"In vain do they worship Me" -- for what reason? What is the point that Christ is making?

Christ did not simply "pronounce them wrong".
He did not simply "declare all their teaching the commandments of men"

Rather He gave them a very concrete testable sola-scriptura proof of their error. What was it "according to the text"??

 

[BobRyan]

All this contention over Catholicism, Orthodox, Protestant and SDA. How the heck do you guys live like this? I'm setting myself free. I know Galatians 5 is about the law, more specifically about circumcision, but I see bondage in all this religious division as well .

And you see Christ and Paul in perfect harmony with the church leadership of their day - started by God at Sinai... right? No trouble there at all? really? I think you will agree with me that they were experiencing some friction with popular church teaching of their home church / mother church - at the time.

Matt 10
24 “A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a slave above his master. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he become like his teacher, and the slave like his master. If they have called the head of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign the members of his household!

34 “Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.

37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.


In John 4 Jesus said "Salvation is of the JEWS" -- but it is not the Romans that dogged his every step and plotted to kill him.

In Gal 5 those who insisted that gentiles be circumcised are flatly condemned by Paul. There was strife, contention.

Titus 1 -
7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious, not fond of sordid gain, 8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout, self-controlled, 9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. 10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, 11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. 12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth

 

[BobRyan]

All the NT uses the OT as its scripture.

Acts 17:11 "They studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things spoken by Paul were SO"
Luke 24:27 "Beginning with Moses and ALL the prophets He explained the things concerning Himself from ALL of scripture"
2 Tim 3:16 "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine"

BEFORE the Cross Jesus said "sanctify them in Thy Truth - Thy WORD is truth" John 17:17

There is no Christianity that can survive on the doctrine of "Give Me the Bible but NOT the Words IN the Bible" as I am sure we both agree.

And in Is 66:23 we see that long after the cross - and for all eternity "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

Heb 4:9 "there REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" -- remains -- from what it was in Psalms 96 in this case.

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

"From Sabbath to Sabbath" could mean something different than you think.

Isaiah is writing in Isaiah 66:23 and his readers are reading. Exegesis includes the rule that you must strive to understand what the author intended his readers to think by the way he is writing. What did Isaiah think "From year to year" and from "new moon to new moon" and "from Sabbath to Sabbath" meant to his readers?

That part is incredibly easy.

It all seems like pretty hard to understand stuff to me.

I find that amazing.

Hebrews 4 is not talking about a certain day of the week,

Until you read Hebrews 4 - and we see the quote of the seventh day being made holy during the 7 day creation week.

His works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has said somewhere concerning the seventh day: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”;

Heb 4:9 says that the Sabbath remains - just as it was from the time of Psalms 96 which is being quoted in Hebrews 4.

What do you suppose the weekly Sabbath actually was in Psalms 96 - at the time of David?

Anyway, what would you have me do? Pick between you, the orthodox and the other denominations?

I would suggest taking these obvious statements in the Bible and accepting them - as step 1.

That is the path Christ was choosing in Mark 7 - and I think we both know it.

Line upon line... precept upon precept... take the first step.

 

[Travis93]

Kindling a fire is specifically forbidden on Sabbath, which is obviously what the guy gathering firewood was going to do, that's what made it such a heinous crime against God.
Exodus 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

I personally just eat pop tarts and cereal bars on the sabbath, food I don't have to heat, just in case using the microwave or oven counts as kindling a fire.

 

[W2L]

Thanks but I'm a sister I know naming myself a Bible verse makes it a little confusing.

Yes I suppose it does. IM pretty confused anyway, so it wouldn't matter.

 

[Bob S]

All this contention over Catholicism, Orthodox, Protestant and SDA. How the heck do you guys live like this? I'm setting myself free. I know Galatians 5 is about the law, more specifically about circumcision, but I see bondage in all this religious division as well and I declare liberty from it. I have the commands of Christ. I know what is right and wrong. I know how to pray. I know about love. Religion however has no pace in my heart. I'm setting myself free from all that mess.

Amen! my friend. I was set free from the bondage of the legalism of SDAism and its false prophet 20 years ago. The leader of my church is Jesus Christ, my guide is the Holy Spirit.

Everyone knows I am not, in any way, perfect except my Father in Heaven. Jesus has covered for me and I live to serve Him.

 

[W2L]

Amen! my friend. I was set free from the bondage of the legalism of SDAism and its false prophet 20 years ago. The leader of my church is Jesus Christ, my guide is the Holy Spirit.

Everyone knows I am not, in any way, perfect except my Father in Heaven. Jesus has covered for me and I live to serve Him.

With all the division, it seems like a wise choice to me.

 

[Bob S]

With all the division, it seems like a wise choice to me.

What a true blessing it has been. Try it and you will like it. I will have to tell you that we do fellowship with believers. I love to hear the gospel preached and study God's word with others. When we put away pre conceived beliefs and study the Holy Writ with newness a lot of thing become clear. The plan of salvation is simple. Claim the promises!

 

[W2L]

What a true blessing it has been. Try it and you will like it. I will have to tell you that we do fellowship with believers. I love to hear the gospel preached and study God's word with others. When we put away pre conceived beliefs and study the Holy Writ with newness a lot of thing become clear. The plan of salvation is simple. Claim the promises!

I never assumed you didn't.

 

[BobRyan]

What a true blessing it has been. Try it and you will like it. I will have to tell you that we do fellowship with believers. I love to hear the gospel preached and study God's word with others. When we put away pre conceived beliefs and study the Holy Writ with newness a lot of thing become clear. The plan of salvation is simple. Claim the promises!

hmm... i thought you said recently that you prefer to keep going to the SDA church so that you can promote division within the local congregation where you attend. Did I misread your statement?

 

[Bob S]

hmm... i thought you said recently that you prefer to keep going to the SDA church so that you can promote division within the local congregation where you attend. Did I misread your statement?

You certainly did. To do such a thing would certainly be a nasty thing to do. I have never said or written such a thing Bob. This only proves you don't digest the things we write because of your preconceived beliefs.

I consider most Adventists to be great people. It is a shame they have been duped into believing untruths. Reading an unbiased history of the church would certainly make you wonder why they could possibly call themselves the "remnant".

 

[BobRyan]

What a true blessing it has been. Try it and you will like it. I will have to tell you that we do fellowship with believers. I love to hear the gospel preached and study God's word with others. When we put away pre conceived beliefs and study the Holy Writ with newness a lot of thing become clear. The plan of salvation is simple. Claim the promises!

hmm... i thought you said recently that you prefer to keep going to the SDA church so that you can promote division within the local congregation where you attend. Did I misread your statement?

You certainly did. To do such a thing would certainly be a nasty thing to do. I have never said or written such a thing Bob.

It is possible I am mistaking you for some other former-SDA on this board. I was simply asking for clarification.

From now on when I point out that your own pro-Sunday scholars oppose your war against God's TEN Commandments - you will feel more like owning up to that scenario.

Well then I suppose you fully enjoy the Sunday church you now attend instead - and are here as a public service. So that is fine.

From now on when I point out that the majority of your own pro-Sunday scholars affirm God's TEN Commandments and oppose your war against the LAW of God - you will see the point.

Guess you have not been reading my posts or you would know that I am not "pro Sunday".

The fact is I enjoyed the Sabbath worship service most of the time. Sabbath school was an entirely different ball game. You talk about a hostile bunch of Ellen White thumpers, boy what a mess they were.

Ha! It will be a very cold day in h before I would agree with those guys. .

Well... that didn't last long.