If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[Jan001]

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Iniquity is breaking the law of Moses, the will of the Father is to keep it. No amount of good works or lip service to Jesus calling him Lord will make up for breaking the law of Moses.

Are you an unbeliever in Jesus Christ? Most Jews today do not believe in Jesus Christ and they do follow the Law of Moses.

As for me, I am not under the Law of Moses. I am under the Law of Liberty/grace of Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. rsv

Romans 7:6
But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. rsv

Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. rsv

James 2:12
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. rsv​

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Read Jesus's Own Words in the NT.
Prayerfully.
What Jesus says, and what men say Jesus says are not the same.
So read directly what Jesus Himself says.

 

[Jan001]

The problem with your suggestion is that it directly conflicts with Prophecies in the OT about the covenant (Torah) being written on the heart and in the mind.

You rightly cite that the heart of Torah is loving G-d with your all and loving your neighbor as yourself. All of the prophets and Torah are founded on those 2. The entireity of the Torah is showing HOW to do those 2 things.

The idea that somehow there is a new or different law that is far more "liberal" is now in place is found NO WHERE in scripture.

Further more you are also ignoring G-d word where he expressly stays that he DOES NOTHING without first revealing it to his PROPHETS(plural) Even if I make allowance for you that Paul was a prophet his testimony is invalid as he has no witness to verify his testimony.

Your argument is so foundational in nature (the setting aside of Torah) that to suggest that Messiah would not have discussed this with his apostles in itself is absurd. Indeed what we see when Messiah DOES speak about the Torah is the antithesis of your position. He plainly stated "DO NOT THINK THAT I HAVE COME TO ABOLISH THE TORAH (LAW) or PROPHETS FOR I DID NOT COME TO ABOLISH THEM." Yeshua came teaching OBEDIENCE..... No where will you find the master teaching anything contrary to the keeping of the torah. NO WHERE.

Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses. Do you you know what "fulfill" means?

Matthew 5:17
“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. rsv​

Luke 4:21
And he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” rsv​

FULFILL
to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fulfil​

Are you an unbeliever in Jesus Christ? Most Jews today do not believe in Jesus Christ, but they do follow the Law of Moses as you most likely do also.

As for me, I am not under the Law (of Moses). I am under the Law of Liberty/grace of Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. rsv

Romans 7:6
But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. rsv

Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. rsv

James 2:12
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. rsv

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus talks with His sheep. They know His Voice (Jesus says so). Directly. Not thru someone else who is opposed to Him.
He never tells the sheep to follow someone else who is opposed to Him.
Listening to someone else who repudiates Jesus is never a good idea.
Listening to someone else who directly disobeys Jesus is never a good idea.
Listening to someone else who directly opposes the bible is never a good idea.

 

[W2L]

Jesus came to fulfill the Law of Moses. Do you you know what "fulfill" means?

Matthew 5:17
“Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them. rsv​

Luke 4:21
And he began to say to them, “Today this scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.” rsv​

FULFILL
to bring to an end; finish or complete, as a period of time: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/fulfil​

Are you an unbeliever in Jesus Christ? Most Jews today do not believe in Jesus Christ, but they do follow the Law of Moses as you most likely do also.

As for me, I am not under the Law (of Moses). I am under the Law of Liberty/grace of Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:14
For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace. rsv

Romans 7:6
But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit. rsv

Galatians 3:23
Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. rsv

James 2:12
So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. rsv

God wants us to grow into spiritual adults. He is our father.

 

[1John2:4]

I donno, I follow the apostles and I don't trust denominations. I wish I had better answer but that's all I have.

I think this may have been directed at another post, however, I do like your reply
That's a great answer, I have to say I feel the same way as you, I don't want to be lead away from the truth by someone's agenda, whatever that may be.

 

[W2L]

I think this may have been directed at another post, however, I do like your reply
That's a great answer, I have to say I feel the same way as you, I don't want to be lead away from the truth by someone's agenda, whatever that may be.

No it was directed to you, in reply to your post. However it wasn't against you in anyway. It was just my answer about who I follow and why. I don't have all the answers, and I am pretty ignorant. I just follow as I feel lead.

 

[1John2:4]

No it was directed to you, in reply to your post. However it wasn't against you in anyway. It was just my answer about who I follow and why. I don't have all the answers, and I am pretty ignorant. I just follow as I feel lead.

Ha! me too, I'm kinda derpy, I think we are all learning and growing here, that is why I really enjoy this forum so far, I can learn and teach and everyone is zealous for the Word of God, and its way better than Face Book!!

 

[BobRyan]

Pope is simply an Italian slang word for Papa. I don't know how or when the title of Pope caught on throughout the whole world. The Pope is actually the Bishop of Rome just as Peter was the Bishop of Rome and the pope/Bishop of Rome is the chief bishop of all the bishops. It is the chief bishop alone who has possession of the keys of the kingdom of God. The office of chief bishop/steward is an ongoing office and it will remain until Jesus returns to earth. Isaiah 22:15-25

The other apostles/stewards/bishops have successors also. 1 Chronicles 28:1, Acts 1:20,
1 Corinthians 9:17

Simon was the original name of Peter.

Pontifex Maximus -- was the original title of pagan Roman Emperors. We all knew that as well I think.

Loyalty to Rome -- keep Rome's commands and tradition.
Loyalty to the Christian faith - keep the commands in the Bible.

"Pontifex Maximus was one of the many titles of the Emperor," https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus

Pope (Latin: papa from Greek: πάππας pappas,[1] a child's word for "father") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope

The Roman leaders/emperors did not call the "head" of the Catholic Church "Pope."

Agreed. I am talking about "Pontifex Maxiumus" in my post above.

"since the 11th century commonly refers specifically to the Bishop of Rome,[128] who is more strictly called the "Roman Pontiff" "

So we are talking about historic fact -- not preference.

Are you insinuating with your quote "Pontifex Maximus -- was the original title of pagan Roman Emperors" that this title for pagan Roman Emperors pertains to the pope of the Catholic Church?

I am pointing out that the term was used as follows in pagan Rome: "The Pontifex Maximus (Latin, literally: "greatest pontiff" or "greatest bridge-builder") was the high priest of the College of Pontiffs (Collegium Pontificum) in ancient Rome. This was the most important position in the ancient Roman religion, open only to patricians until 254 BC, when a plebeian first occupied this post. A distinctly religious office under the early Roman Republic, it gradually became politicized until, beginning with Augustus it was subsumed into the Imperial office

We Catholic Christians are not pagans. We believe in one God in three Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I am a Christian belonging to the Catholic Church ...

I have no doubt of that. I am simply talking about the actual history of this term.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Romans 14 says that one man "OBSERVES one day above another while another man observes all of them. He who observes the day - observes it unto the Lord".

It is not talking about the Gal 4 - condemned pagan days. For which Paul will condemn the Galatians for observing even one of them.

It is talking about the Lev 23 list of annual holy days.

True before the cross. True after the cross.

in the Bible - not helping your neighbor on monday because it is "your time" and only helping him with work on Sabbath - because you don't choose to honor the Sabbath -- is not approved.

Thus it can be shown from Gal 4 that Romans 14 Paul was not endorsing the observance of any-ol-day you wish. Paul flatly condemns the observance of pagan days in Galatians 4. So Romans 14 is only approving of Bible-approved list of days - that we find in places like Lev 23 and the annual holy days.

No I'm talking about treating every day alike, and helping others any day, whether its Monday or Saturday. My whole theory here is based on not working to feed our lust but instead working to feed our families an to help others. Surely that is never wrong is it?

What does God say about what is allowed in His Holy Day?

Sola scriptura.

Isaiah 58
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The Holy Day of The Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Lev 23
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

Is 66:23 " from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

Money spent on Christ at Simon's feast was considered a waste by Judas who said that the ointment should have been sold and the money given to the poor.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes but didn't Christ's disciples pick wheat on the Sabbath? Why were they not stoned?

Is there some text in the Bible that says that if you are walking an eating the heads of wheat as you pass through a field on Sabbath - you are to be stoned???

Jesus simply said: "Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath" (Matthew 12:6-8).

Of course, the Sabbath commandment is in a separate category from the sacrificial ordinances. Yet since Jewish law permitted the feeding and watering of animals on the Sabbath to relieve unnecessary suffering, this principle would logically and naturally extend to human beings—in this case, Jesus' disciples—who were partaking of the only food readily available at that time.

This controversy would never have been possible were it not for the Pharisees' exaggerated views about actions forbidden or allowed on the Sabbath. The priests in the Temple worked on the Sabbath, yet were guiltless (Matthew 12:5). The scribes knew this, but apparently did not clearly understand why it was so. Somehow, they missed the point that God instituted the Sabbath not only to give human beings rest from physical labors, but also to give them a time to devote to God by doing His works and serving Him. The disciples' actions were "clearly not a breach of the Biblical, but of the Rabbinic Law"

 

[W2L]

Thus it can be shown from Gal 4 that Romans 14 Paul was not endorsing the observance of any-ol-day you wish. Paul flatly condemns the observance of pagan days in Galatians 4. So Romans 14 is only approving of Bible-approved list of days - that we find in places like Lev 23 and the annual holy days.



What does God say about what is allowed in His Holy Day?

Sola scriptura.

Isaiah 58
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The Holy Day of The Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Look, you all can fight over what is sound doctrine, and do that for the next 20 years. I admit my ignorance, I don't have all the answers. One thing I do know however is that we should abstain from lust for power and money. I believe if we do that, then we keep every day holy. Am I right in not concerning myself with Sabbath? I don't know, but God knows I try my best to understand, and in the end I'm just a man. I will humble myself in my ignorance and plead mercy in his courts. I do the best I can and I'm tired of denominations and all their bickering. I'm just some guy who has been a sinner much of his life, and now wants to do right but God because I know He is right. That's all.

 

[W2L]

Is there some text in the Bible that says that if you are walking an eating the heads of wheat as you pass through a field on Sabbath - you are to be stoned???

A man was stoned for gathering sticks, that's why I mentioned stoning. I'm sorry I am not a master of OT law. I'm just some guy who does the best he can with what he has. You all grieve me so much with all this theology and discord. It just makes me sad. I'm walking by faith not sight, and may God have mercy on my soul.

 

[BobRyan]

A man was stoned for gathering sticks, that's why I mentioned stoning.

Gathering sticks to make a fire is serious work - if you have ever tried to start a fire from mere sticks.

The disregard of Sabbath - treating it like any other work day is - sin.

But walking in nature - and eating the berries or other fruit that just so-happens to be along the way is not an occupation or any form of work that you would engage in unless you are genuinely foraging for food and this is your grocery shopping method.

In Christ's day they would go to the market to buy food. Not on Sabbath though.

 

[W2L]

Ha! me too, I'm kinda derpy, I think we are all learning and growing here, that is why I really enjoy this forum so far, I can learn and teach and everyone is zealous for the Word of God, and its way better than Face Book!!

Amen brother, amen.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Romans 14 says that one man "OBSERVES one day above another while another man observes all of them. He who observes the day - observes it unto the Lord".

It is not talking about the Gal 4 - condemned pagan days. For which Paul will condemn the Galatians for observing even one of them.

It is talking about the Lev 23 list of annual holy days.

True before the cross. True after the cross.

in the Bible - not helping your neighbor on monday because it is "your time" and only helping him with work on Sabbath - because you don't choose to honor the Sabbath -- is not approved.

Thus it can be shown from Gal 4 that Romans 14 Paul was not endorsing the observance of any-ol-day you wish. Paul flatly condemns the observance of pagan days in Galatians 4. So Romans 14 is only approving of Bible-approved list of days - that we find in places like Lev 23 and the annual holy days.

No I'm talking about treating every day alike, and helping others any day, whether its Monday or Saturday. My whole theory here is based on not working to feed our lust but instead working to feed our families an to help others. Surely that is never wrong is it?

What does God say about what is allowed in His Holy Day?

Sola scriptura.

Isaiah 58
“If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The Holy Day of The Lord honorable,
And shall honor Him, not doing your own ways,
Nor finding your own pleasure,
Nor speaking your own words,
14 Then you shall delight yourself in the Lord;
And I will cause you to ride on the high hills of the earth,
And feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father.
The mouth of the Lord has spoken.”

Ex 20
8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Lev 23
3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings.

Is 66:23 " from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship"

Money spent on Christ at Simon's feast was considered a waste by Judas who said that the ointment should have been sold and the money given to the poor.


==============================

We are talking about the protestant principle of "sola scriptura testing" -- to determine sound doctrine.

Look, you all can fight over what is sound doctrine

We do that all the time with Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses etc. Compare the Bible to the teaching and traditions of man -- just as Christ did in Mark 7:6-13.

We follow His example.

I don't have all the answers. One thing I do know however is that we should abstain from lust for power and money.

Agreed we should do that - but we should also Honor our father and mother, and we should not take God's name in vain.

We cannot use one command to negate another. They all count according to James 2.

I believe if we do that, then we keep every day holy. Am I right in not concerning myself with Sabbath? I don't know,

God says that the saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12 -- are you ok with that statement in the Bible?

God said "Love Me and Keep My Commandments" Ex 20:6.
Christ affirms this teaching "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" John 14:!5.

Christ was often questioned as was Paul - and both accused as trouble-makers for sticking with the Bible and not submitting to popular man-made traditions. See Mark 7:6-13.

There is nothing new going on here.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 10 Jesus said "Think not that I have come to bring peace - I did not come to bring peace - but rather a sword" --

What is Christ's meaning in your opinion?

Mark 7:6-13 is a good example.

Take Christ's example in Mark 7 where he shows how to stand firm for the Word of God, the Commandment of God even when it is in the form of "Moses said" - and He does so in the face of strong opposition from His own church leadership who wanted to rely on their own traditions to set aside one of the Commandments of God.

Stick with Christ's model - and then let us know when you find that it is coming up short - or getting you to what might be the wrong side of the fence. So far it has held up pretty well in my opinion.

 

[W2L]

Gathering sticks to make a fire is serious work - if you have ever tried to start a fire from mere sticks.

The disregard of Sabbath - treating it like any other work day is - sin.

But walking in nature - and eating the berries or other fruit that just so-happens to be along the way is not an occupation or any form of work that you would engage in unless you are genuinely foraging for food and this is your grocery shopping method.

In Christ's day they would go to the market to buy food. Not on Sabbath though.

So picking grain is ok, but starting afire to warm yourself is not? Makes no sense to me.

Also why didn't Christ just use your words when the Pharisees accused his disciples of sin? Why did he go into the thing about David eating the unlawful bread? Look, gathering grain is work. I think you are just trying to justify Sabbath keeping, and that's ok with me. I however don't see how any of this makes sense, and I don't see why I should observe Sabbath. I see liberty, forgive my ignorance but I must go that way because I don't understand any of this OT law stuff. I do however see that we are commanded to abstain from lust, lust for power and wealth. I see also that if I love others as myself I wont force them to work 7 days a week, nor will I exploit them in any way. Forgive my ignorance but I follow what I see and that's all I can do.

Why didn't Jesus just say this in his defense?

Is there some text in the Bible that says that if you are walking an eating the heads of wheat as you pass through a field on Sabbath - you are to be stoned???

 

[BobRyan]

This is from post #3.

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

James 2
8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well;
9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by THE Law as transgressors.
10 For whoever shall keep the whole Law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of THE Law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

It based on "He who said" -

 

[BobRyan]

So picking grain is ok, but starting afire to warm yourself is not? Makes no sense to me.

The guy starting a fire during the day in Exodus 20 -- was in the desert.

Not a lot of "keep yourself warm during the day" requirements in the desert of Sinai even today. It was flagrant violation.

What is more - it is very hard work to start a fire with sticks... no matches.. no lighter fluid.