If you Love Me - KEEP My Commandments

[ClothedInGrace]

Then do you oppose the Commandments of God as a Christian or do you have them written on the "mind and heart"??

Of course his commandments are written on our minds and hearts. But those commandments are not the law of Moses, they are Christ's commands to believe in his name and to love our neighbors.

 

[BobRyan]

Of course his commandments are written on our minds and hearts. But those commandments are not the law of Moses, they are Christ's commands to believe in his name and to love our neighbors.

Did you read the OP???

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Ex 20:6 "love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

So may argue that all that was before the cross - so pay no attention to that part of "scripture" -- it is not for Christians. Yet "Chrisitan" means - follower of Christ and Christ is speaking both in John 14 - and in Exodus 20.



By contrast to that speculative conclusion we have --

"what matters is KEEPiNG the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

So then what about Christ coming up with a different set of commandments - that are not those of God? Not those of God the Father and thereby negating the Commandments of God to replace them with other commandments - that come from Christ? Is that what we find in the New Testament?

Not according to Jesus' words in John's Gospel.

John 5:19 "19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

John 8:28 "28 So Jesus said, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 12:49 49 For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

John 14: "10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works."

Which is why in John 14:15 we see this
15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Instead of "keep My Commandments - not My Father's commandments - just mine"

And it is why John 15:10 does not say that either

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

And of course God the Father gave Jesus the ministry of "Savior" to the world such that Jesus prayed "Father if it be possible let this cup pass from me - nevertheless not my will - but Thy will be done"

John said - Jesus kept His Father's Commandments.

John said - we should do as Jesus did.
1 John 2: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

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Jesus is the One that gave us the TEN Commandments - they were spoken by HiM as we see in the NEW Covenant

Heb 8 (And Jer 31:31-33)
6 But now He has obtained a more excellent ministry, by as much as He is also the mediator of a better covenant, which has been enacted on better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion sought for a second. 8 For finding fault with them, He says,
“Behold, days are coming, says the Lord,
When I will effect a new covenant
With the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 Not like the covenant which I made with their fathers
On the day when I took them by the hand
To lead them out of the land of Egypt;
For they did not continue in My covenant,
And I did not care for them, says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel
After those days, says the Lord:
I will put My laws into their minds,
And I will write them on their hearts.
And I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.

Exegesis demands that the moral law of God written on the mind and heart in Jer 31:31-33 is the one that Jeremiah and his readers knew.


Do you view Jesus as opposed to the Father or the two and the Holy Spirit are "ONE God" in your/our monotheistic religion?

 

[BobRyan]

"ALL scripture is given by inspiration from GOD and is to be used for doctrine" 2Tim 3:16.

Does not say "given by inspiration from Moses"

 

[BobRyan]

"Word of God" -- "Commandment of God" -- "Moses said"

Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the Commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the Word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Brother, give me a scripture from Paul the apostle that says believers are to keep the law/observe the OT commandments of God. If this is as important as you say it is, then surely Paul would mention it--no?

 

[Alawishis]

So in other words only the 10 are "God's Laws" and the rest are just stuff Moses made up and God didn't care if they were kept or not?
As for your argument about the Sabbath it falls on deaf ears here I've yet to hear a convincing argument that doesn't outright IGNORE scripture in the OT that equates that the 10 commandments are sole property of Israel alone and ONLY theirs to keep.

Moses was never that bold to write his own laws, at least not till later, and also that's not what I said:

* The other set of laws was written by Moses as related by God.

Sure God cared, this contained the ceremonial law after all. This was part of what allowed God to reside in the midst of His people. But really most of these laws were only written because Israel had proven that they could not keep the ten commandments. That's why it was kept, as a witness against them Deuteronomy 31:26 . It was because of their rebellion that it was needed. This also was the law that was nailed to the cross as that law was identified and a law that was a witness against us, which is how this was identified.

Yes, I know what your saying about how so many Christians divorce themselves from the OT like it's not even part of scripture any more. It's sad, to lose out on so much wonderful teaching and cutting the bible down to one third. But still for some faiths it makes it easier to defend their positions when you can cut out all the OT teachings I suppose. It's not the people in the pews that are doing this it's the leaders in the churches, that tell the people what they should believe. If only people would pick up their bibles and check it out for themselves, and not depend on others to tell them what scripture says.

If only there were more Bereans today.

 

[BobRyan]

Brother, give me a scripture from Paul the apostle that says believers are to keep the law/observe the OT commandments of God. If this is as important as you say it is, then surely Paul would mention it--no?

Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" --

First commandment where??

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

"Not the hearers of the LAW are just before God but the doers of the LAW will be JustiFIED" Rom 2:13

 

[ClothedInGrace]

Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" --

First commandment where??

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

"Not the hearers of the LAW are just before God but the doers of the LAW will be JustiFIED" Rom 2:13

Well you certainly failed to do what I asked.

None of these scriptures argue that believers should observe the OT law and commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

Paul testimony under oath - in a court of law -

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What is encouraging is that the span from Acts 21-28 gives a great view of how Paul declared his own practice "under oath" and before both Jews and gentiles starting with clarification of his teaching for his fellow Messianic Jews.



Acts 21
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law

Acts 24
14But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets


Acts 25
8 while he answered for himself, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all.;


Acts 26
Therefore, having obtained help from God, to this day I stand, witnessing both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses said would come; 23 that the Christ would suffer, that He would be the first to rise from the dead, and would proclaim light to the Jewish people and to the Gentiles;

Acts 28
17 And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together. So when they had come together, he said to them: Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers, yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans,... I have called for you, to see you and speak with you, because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
...
23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening

 

[ClothedInGrace]

How about this... You are SDA, no? Give me a scripture from Paul commanding the Sabbath.

 

[Alawishis]

This logic is good but there is flaws to it in that you can have two children one who obeys but despises their parents and only wants what they can give them and another that has problems obeying compared to the other but loves their parents and is less interested in reward from them. Does the child who obeys more get favor in the end or the one who loves more? So in the end it is not about the rules or obedience but the heart (love) behind it all.

It's about the heart. That's what God judges and that's what provides the motivation for our actions. It's also where God wants us to keep the law written, both in the OT and the NT. Because if the law is written on our hearts we will keep it out of love.

 

[BobRyan]

notice then the "details" in Paul's clarification to his fellow Messianic Jews in Acts 21.

Acts 21
20 And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him;You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.

(Many on this board would be tempted to argue - "yeah... that is EXACTLY what Paul was doing!" - Paul goes out of his way to disprove it.



22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come.
23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow;
24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law..

And those who want to just focus on one tiny verse in Acts 21 -- Acts 21:25 to the exclusion of the entire episode - find that there in that one tiny verse gentiles are not commandment to "Love God with all their heart" or to "love your neighbor as yourself" nor even "thou shalt not murder" ... none of that is in Acts 21:25. Since obviously Acts 21:25 is NOT the "tiny 1 verse Bible left for gentiles" - but rather shows the restrictions from OT food laws that need to be held up as reminders for Gentiles as new practice they might not be familiar with.

What we have quoted there is this restriction from Lev 17 and eating meat with blood in it.

Acts 21:25
25 But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication

 

[BobRyan]

How about this... You are SDA, no? Give me a scripture from Paul commanding the Sabbath.

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"there remains therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4:9

Eph 6:2 - "honor your father and mother for this is the first commandment with a promise" --

First commandment where??


"Not the hearers of the LAW are just before God but the doers of the LAW will be JustiFIED" Rom 2:13

 

[Sophrosyne]

Moses was never that bold to write his own laws, at least not till later, and also that's not what I said:



Sure God cared, this contained the ceremonial law after all. This was part of what allowed God to reside in the midst of His people. But really most of these laws were only written because Israel had proven that they could not keep the ten commandments. That's why it was kept, as a witness against them Deuteronomy 31:26 . It was because of their rebellion that it was needed. This also was the law that was nailed to the cross as that law was identified and a law that was a witness against us, which is how this was identified.

Yes, I know what your saying about how so many Christians divorce themselves from the OT like it's not even part of scripture any more. It's sad, to lose out on so much wonderful teaching and cutting the bible down to one third. But still for some faiths it makes it easier to defend their positions when you can cut out all the OT teachings I suppose. It's not the people in the pews that are doing this it's the leaders in the churches, that tell the people what they should believe. If only people would pick up their bibles and check it out for themselves, and not depend on others to tell them what scripture says.

If only there were more Bereans today.

This is nonsense, you are now claiming without proof that all but the 10 commandments (and the dietary laws) were nailed to the cross... you have no leg to stand on as there is no scripture divorcing the 600+ from the 10 at all. It is akin to saying diet soda is exactly the same as regular soda when in fact they aren't identical. It is like saying that sinning by breaking commandments is not longer sinning by breaking commandments that you chose to ignore as legitimate. Orthodox Jews who try to keep all the 613 possible as well as possible would strongly disagree with you that you aren't divorcing yourself from the OT and hiring a lawyer to get alimony of the 10 commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
A simple question for those here who are opposed to God's Commandments.
what "Commandments" what "LAW" is this where the 5th commandment is the FIRST one with a promise??

Eph 6:2
2 “Honor your father and mother,” which is the first commandment with promise:

In what well-known unit of law - is there such an arrangement as is stated in Eph 6 - by Paul???

We wait to find out why this question cannot be answered by those opposed to God's Commandments.

This question has been asked about half dozen times so far on this thread --

 

[Sophrosyne]

It's about the heart. That's what God judges and that's what provides the motivation for our actions. It's also where God wants us to keep the law written, both in the OT and the NT. Because if the law is written on our hearts we will keep it out of love.

Not according to your logic...... you are equating obedience with love and one can obey without loving better than one loves without obeying and you would side with the one loving less over the one obeying. At what point does love trump obedience to your logic? What if love was replaced with faith instead? What if a child hated his parents but realized they were filthy rich and obeyed them perfectly while their sibling loved their parents but didn't always obey them... who would the parents choose to inherit? As for the heart issue, it isn't about heart but faith in the first place those who have faith in God will find themselves obeying Jesus edict to love one another and the commandments that are to prohibit hateful deeds will be less broken or not at all.

 

[ClothedInGrace]

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
"there remains therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4:9

Hebrews 4:9 is not Paul telling believers to keep the Sabbath: He is writing about how the Jews did not enter God's true Sabbath rest, Jesus, because they were going back to the law in unbelief. You shouldn't take verses out of context.

 

[BABerean2]

Then do you oppose the Commandments of God as a Christian or do you have them written on the "mind and heart"??

All of the Sinai commandments except the 4th are clearly repeated by Paul.

Circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant, which was kept by the descendants of Jacob. The Judaizers said the Gentile Christians needed to be circumcised also.
The Apostle Paul clearly said no in the Book of Galatians.
He also said the Sinai covenant was one of bondage that we are to cast out, based on Gal. chapter 4.

The Sabbath was the sign of the Sinai covenant which was kept by the Israelites.
In Col. 2:16 Paul stated that no one is to judge us in Sabbath days or meats or holy days, etc.


Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


The Israelites were also expected to follow the dietary laws. However, Peter's vision in the Book of Acts clearly showed that this did not apply to the Gentile Christians.


Act_10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

Act_11:7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.

Therefore the New Covenant requirements are not the same as those found in the Old Testament.


Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


However, some are attempting to prove otherwise in order to make their Sabbath doctrine work.

 

[Alawishis]

So I'm curious, you who say we should "keep" the law, which laws would those be? The ten commandments? The ten commandments plus Christ's commandments? All commandments in the OT and NT? Are you more righteous because you "keep" these commandments? Am I less righteous because I do not "keep" these commandments? You all list yourselves as Messianic and SDA, so I ask, why make the distinction? What happens if a Christian is not Messianic or SDA? Are they still a part of the Body of Christ? Is a Christian wrong because they do not observe the Sabbath?

Just want to see what you believe.

Well first thing that's important to know, Jesus did not have a brand new set of commandments. He was quoting the Old Testament Leviticus 19:18 Deuteronomy 6:5 Deuteronomy 10:12 Deuteronomy 11:13 . So, you may ask, if it wasn't new commandments what what was Jesus talking about?

Well that's a great question. Jesus was pointing out how the people of God had lost touch with the commandments and what they are all about. Israel had fallen into the trap of trying to keep the law outwardly and to earn salvation by works. They had built up a system of rules on how to keep the laws that made them a burden for people and they lost their original meaning. This was especially true of the Sabbath and that's why Jesus spent so much time talking about the Sabbath and how it was meant to be kept. Jesus talked about the Sabbath more than any other commandment. So the point Jesus was making was that the heart of the commandments is love, not rules. The commandments teach us how to love. How to love God (the first four commandments), and how to love our fellow man (the last six). If you understand this concept that Jesus taught you are ahead of 90% of Christianity today. He's said they were new because the concept was lost to them, and for them this was new, even though this was always the intention.

The other thing we need to know is the law was never designed to save us. It was not meant to save them in OT times and it is not meant to do it today. It is Jesus who saves us. The Pharisees tried to make it about keeping the law to be saved but that's what he was setting them straight on.

Hope that helps.

 

[Alawishis]

Not according to your logic...... you are equating obedience with love and one can obey without loving better than one loves without obeying and you would side with the one loving less over the one obeying. At what point does love trump obedience to your logic? What if love was replaced with faith instead? What if a child hated his parents but realized they were filthy rich and obeyed them perfectly while their sibling loved their parents but didn't always obey them... who would the parents choose to inherit? As for the heart issue, it isn't about heart but faith in the first place those who have faith in God will find themselves obeying Jesus edict to love one another and the commandments that are to prohibit hateful deeds will be less broken or not at all.

Can you love your wife without keeping your marriage vows? Maybe. I'm not sure she'd be very understanding. Jesus was very plain "If you love me keep my commandments" John 14:5 , John 14:21 , John 15:10 . What do you suppose He was talking about?