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If you cannot believe the genesis account....

Routerider

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jobob said:
I can SHOW you where it SAYS it was created in 6 days.....
and I can dig up the geneogies from Adam to Christ with lifespans,

CAN YOU show me ONE SINGLE passage ANYWHERE that STATES the earth is FLAT and not just give me your uneducated guess?

DIDNT THINK SO........ end of debate..
"Days" is an english translation of the word "Yome" which is define in detail below:

yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

How are we to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yome is used in the context of literal days and not "extended period of time"?
 
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Routerider said:
"Days" is an english translation of the word "Yome" which is define in detail below:

yome
From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially): - age, + always, + chronicles, continually (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X full, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X required, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.

How are we to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that Yome is used in the context of literal days and not "extended period of time"?
Well, no offense, but its easy to see you opened up a Strongs and that was probly the extent of your study on the topic....

I dont want to spend 50 hours with this again but heres a starting article IF you are interested......

Im not willing to debate this all over again, so forgive me if I ignore attempts to make me do so...

IF you have questions tho, Id be more than happy to help with them :)

YOu can also browse around the web and find plenty of facts to back this up...



How long were the days of Genesis 1?
What did God intend us to understand from the words He used?

by Russell Grigg
First published in:
Creation 19(1):23–25
December 1996–February 1997

Were the days of Creation Week of 24 hours duration or were they long periods of time? This article will discuss the Hebrew 'time' words which the author had available to him and what meaning he intended to convey by his choice of the specific words he used1.

Meaning of yôm

When Moses, under the inspiration of God, compiled the account of creation in Genesis 1, he used the Hebrew word yôm for 'day'. He combined yôm with numbers ('first day', 'second day', 'third day', etc.) and with the words 'evening and morning', and the first time he employed it he carefully defined the meaning of yôm (used in this way) as being one night/day cycle (Genesis 1:5). Thereafter, throughout the Bible, yôm used in this way always refers to a normal 24–hour day2,3. There is thus a prima facie case that, when God used the word yôm in this way, He intended to convey that the days of creation were 24 hours long.



Let us now consider what other words God could have used, if He had wanted to convey a much longer period of time than 24 hours. Some Hebrew ‘time’ words



There are several Hebrew words which refer to a long period of time 4. These include qedem which is the main one—word term for 'ancient' and is sometimes translated 'of old'; olam means 'everlasting' or 'eternity' and is translated 'perpetual', 'of old' or 'for ever'; dor means 'a revolution of time' or 'an age' and is sometimes translated 'generations'; tamid means 'continually' or 'for ever'; ad means 'unlimited time' or 'for ever'; orek when used with yôm is translated 'length of days'; shanah means 'a year' or 'a revolution of time' (from the change of seasons); netsach means 'for ever'. Words for a shorter time span include eth (a general term for time); and moed, meaning 'seasons' or 'festivals'. Let us consider how some of these could have been used. 1. Event of long ago

If God had wanted to tell us that the creation events took place a long time in the past, there were several ways He could have said it:

yamim (plural of yôm) alone or with 'evening and morning', would have meant 'and it was days of evening and morning'. This would have been the simplest way, and could have signified many days and so the possibility of a vast age.

qedem by itself or with 'days' would have meant 'and it was from days of old'.

olam with 'days' would also have meant 'and it was from days of old'.

So if God had intended to communicate an ancient creation to us, there were at least three constructions He could have used to tell us this. However, God chose not to use any of these.

2. A continuing event from long ago

If God had wanted to tell us that creation started in the past but continued into the future, meaning that creation took place by some sort of theistic evolution, there were several ways He could have said it:

dor used either alone or with 'days', 'days' and 'nights', or 'evening and morning', could have signified 'and it was generations of days and nights'. This would have been the best word to indicate evolution's alleged aeons, if this had been meant.

olam with the preposition le, plus 'days' or 'evening and morning' could have signified 'perpetual'; another construction le olam va-ed means 'to the age and onward' and is translated 'for ever and ever' in Exodus 15:18.

tamid with 'days', 'days' and 'nights', or 'evening' and 'morning', could have signified 'and it was the continuation of days'.

ad used either alone or with olam could have signified 'and it was for ever'.

shanah (year) could have been used figuratively for 'a long time', especially in the plural.

yôm rab literally means 'a long day' (cf. 'long season' in Joshua 24:7, or 'long time' in the New American Standard Bible). This construction could well have been used by God if He had meant us to understand that the 'days' were long periods of time.

Thus, if God had wanted us to believe that he used a long–drawn–out creative process, there were several words He could have used to tell us this. However, God chose not to use any of these.

3. Ambiguous time

If God had wanted to say that creation took place in the past, while giving no real indication of how long the process took, there were ways He could have done it:

yôm combined with 'light' and 'darkness', would have signified 'and it was a day of light and darkness'. This could be ambiguous because of the symbolic use of 'light' and 'darkness' elsewhere in the Old Testament. However, yôm with 'evening and morning', especially with a number preceding it, can never be ambiguous.

eth ('time') combined with 'day' and 'night' as in Jeremiah 33:20 and Zechariah 14:7 could have been ambiguous. Likewise eth combined with 'light' and 'darkness' (a theoretical construction). If any of these forms had been used, the length of the 'days' of creation would have been widely open for debate. However, God chose not to use any of these.

Author’s Intention



The following considerations show us what God intended us to understand: 1. The meaning of any part of the Bible must be decided in terms of the intention of the author. In the case of Genesis, the intention of its author clearly was to write a historical account. This is shown by the way in which the Lord Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul regarded Genesis—that is, they quoted it as being truth, not symbolic myth or parable5, 6. It was plainly not the author's intention to convey allegorical poetry, fantasy, or myth. And so what God, through Moses, said about creation in Genesis should not be interpreted in these terms.

Moses did, in fact, use some of the above 'long–time' words (italicized in the examples below, with root Hebrew words in square brackets), although not with reference to the days of creation. For example, in Genesis 1:14, he wrote, 'Let there be lights ... for seasons [ moed]'; in Genesis 6:3, 'My spirit shall not always [olam] strive with man'; in Genesis 9:12 'for perpetual generations [olam dor]'; in Leviticus 24:2, 'to burn continually [tamid]'; in Numbers 24:20 'that he perish for ever [ad]'; in Deuteronomy 30:20, 'He is thy light and the length of thy days' [yôm orek]'; in Deuteronomy 32:7, 'Remember the days of old [yôm olam]'; and so on.

Why did God not use any of these words with reference to the creation days, seeing that He used them to describe other things? Clearly it was His intention that the creation days should be regarded as being normal earth-rotation days, and it was not His intention that any longer time–frames should be inferred.

Professor James Barr, professor of Hebrew at Oxford University agrees that the words used in Genesis 1 refer to 'a series of six days which were the same as the days of 24 hours we now experience', and he says that he knows of no professor of Hebrew at any leading university who would say otherwise7.

2. Children have no problem in understanding the meaning of Genesis. The only reason why other ideas are entertained is because people apply concepts from outside the Bible, principally from evolutionary/atheistic sources, to interpret the Bible.

3. The Bible is God's message to mankind and as such it makes authoritative statements about reality. If one removes any portion of the Bible from the realm of reality, God may still be communicating truth to us, but the reader can never be sure that he understands it as the author intended. Furthermore, if God's communication to us is outside our realm of reality, then we cannot know whether any account in the Bible means what the words actually say or whether it means something entirely different, beyond our understanding. For example, if we apply this criterion to the accounts of the resurrection of Jesus, perhaps the words could mean that Jesus did not rise from the dead physically, but in a way beyond our comprehension. When these sorts of word–games are played with the Bible, the Bible loses its authority, we lose the divine perspective on reality, and Christianity loses its life–changing power8.

4. If the 'days' really weren't ordinary days, then God could be open to the charge of having seriously misled His people for thousands of years. Commentators universally understood Genesis in a straightforward way, until attempts were made to harmonize the account with longs ages and then evolution.

Conclusion

In Genesis 1, God, through the 'pen' of Moses, is going out of His way to tell us that the 'days' of creation were literal earth–rotation days. To do this, He used the Hebrew word yôm, combined with a number and the words 'evening and morning'. If God had wanted to tell us it was an ancient creation, then there were several good ways He could have done this. If theistic evolution had been intended, then there were several constructions He could have used. If the time factor had been meant to be ambiguous, then the Hebrew language had ways of saying this. However, God chose not to use any construction which would have communicated a meaning other than a literal solar day.

The only meaning which is possible from the Hebrew words used is that the 'days' of creation were 24–hour days. God could not have communicated this meaning more clearly than He did in Genesis 1. The divine confirmation of this, if any is needed, is Exodus 20:9-11, where the same word 'days' is used throughout:




'Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, not thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.'







 
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JohnR7

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Follower of Christ said:
Im not willing to debate this all over again, so forgive me if I ignore attempts to make me do so...
Really, it gets rather redundant. I get a little tired of people grasping at straws trying to make something out of nothing. I keep waiting for a real discussion to come along, but it just does not seem to be happening right now.
 
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JohnR7

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Arikay said:
Cloaked: I assume then you can show me the verse that literally says the earth is 6000 years old?
The 6000 year date comes from a study of the genologys. That is when Adam and Eve were created was 6000 years ago. Adam lived to be almost 1000 years old and he was still alive when Noah's father was alive. Noah's father died just a few years before the flood.

I believe when God created Adam and Eve He created a whole biodiverse system. This was the beginning of the modern, civilized world as we know it today. They may very well have been something here before Adam and Eve. But there is no written recorded history to that effect. You have to go by what they call the natural record to study the world of old.
 
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Nathan Poe

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JohnR7 said:
The 6000 year date comes from a study of the genologys. That is when Adam and Eve were created was 6000 years ago. Adam lived to be almost 1000 years old and he was still alive when Noah's father was alive. Noah's father died just a few years before the flood.
But the study of the genologies is assuming that the Bible's record is complete and accurate. I wasn't aware that every step in the bloodline from Adam to Jesus was accurately measured, i.e., we know exactly how long each generation lived.

I know the Bible names the generations, but I didn't realize that it also listed the precise ages for birth and death.

Certainly there's nothing in Genesis that states how much time passed between Creation and the fruit tree incident. How'd they figure that one out?

I believe when God created Adam and Eve He created a whole biodiverse system. This was the beginning of the modern, civilized world as we know it today. They may very well have been something here before Adam and Eve. But there is no written recorded history to that effect. You have to go by what they call the natural record to study the world of old.
And there's nothing wrong with such a theological belief, except that it shoots down a 6000-year timeline based on the geneologies.
As I've said before, if there was a world before this one, and the writers of the Bible decided not to mention anything about it, than we can no longer assume that the Bible is a comprehensive history; if that important detail has been left out, who knows what else is missing?
 
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JohnR7

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Nathan Poe said:
But the study of the genologies is assuming that the Bible's record is complete and accurate. I wasn't aware that every step in the bloodline from Adam to Jesus was accurately measured, i.e., we know exactly how long each generation lived.
Yes, we know exactly how long each generation lived. There is no assuming involved at all here. It is very easy to do a study on the generations between Adam and Abraham. I do not worry about how difficult it gets after Abraham, because Abraham was so respected by the Hebrews and the Muslums that there is lots of information outside of the Bible that traces the genology from Abraham on. Even though that information is also in the Bible.

I know the Bible names the generations, but I didn't realize that it also listed the precise ages for birth and death.
Now you know. You should open up your Bible and read it every now and then, you may learn a little bit of something, dispite yourself.

Certainly there's nothing in Genesis that states how much time passed between Creation and the fruit tree incident. How'd they figure that one out?
Very simple, we go by the age of Adam when his sons were born. The incident had to have taken place in the first 130 years of Adam's life.

Genesis 5:3
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:

As I've said before, if there was a world before this one, and the writers of the Bible decided not to mention anything about it, than we can no longer assume that the Bible is a comprehensive history; if that important detail has been left out, who knows what else is missing?
What are you talking about? Do you know what we mean when we say "recorded history"? That means we have a written record. A record that was written and recorded by man. It covers the modern world, the world as we know it today. It covers the beginning the the modern, civilized world that we live in today. It covers the first 4000 years from the perspective of the Hebrew people. The Bible with the exception of Luke was written by Hebrews. It is a History of the Hebrew people.

Try and do a study on the history of the Anglo Saxton people. Tell me about the english speaking world, before the year 300 ad. You will not find much, because they did not have a written language and not much in the way of recorded history. They were not even a part of the world back then. At least not the world that was under the control of the Romans. It was not untell around 300 AD that they were given land, and they became a part of the civilized world at that time.
 
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Follower of Christ

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Certainly there's nothing in Genesis that states how much time passed between Creation and the fruit tree incident. How'd they figure that one out?

Id think that would just be a guess.........but we know what the text shows as for Adams age when he died.
The hebrews were very meticulous with records and geneologies...


And there's nothing wrong with such a theological belief, except that it shoots down a 6000-year timeline based on the geneologies.
As I've said before, if there was a world before this one, and the writers of the Bible decided not to mention anything about it, than we can no longer assume that the Bible is a comprehensive history; if that important detail has been left out, who knows what else is missing?


and THIS is why I dont even play around with it anymore....
Johnr7 believes in a pre-adamite earth........ so basically he has conceded that there was something here before Adam.......and Old Earth is possible to him....

So now for the next phase of attack, eh Poe ?
Get us to concede one point, then its on to the next...

Im so glad I got out of that little game :)
 
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Nathan Poe

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Follower of Christ said:
Id think that would just be a guess.........but we know what the text shows as for Adams age when he died.
The hebrews were very meticulous with records and geneologies...
Indeed, and if I were to nit-pick, I'd probably ask something like "does that age start from when he was created, or when he was expelled from paradise? Since there was no death before the fall, why bother keeping track up until life had a time limit?"

But I'm not in the mood to nit-pick, so I'll just let that one slide.





and THIS is why I dont even play around with it anymore....
Johnr7 believes in a pre-adamite earth........ so basically he has conceded that there was something here before Adam.......and Old Earth is possible to him....


As good a theological belief as any.


So now for the next phase of attack, eh Poe ?
Get us to concede one point, then its on to the next...
Well, yes, the forum is called "discussion and debate." How did you think a debate worked?

In any case, this has nothing to do with "attack," except perhaps for your benefit, not mine. As I tell my students, "It's not enough to have a right answer; you need to know why it's right."

Beliefs -- yours, mine, John's -- are based on facts, or at least our preception of them: What we believe is true or false. If our beliefs are based on something we think is true, and someone shows us how it cannot possibly be true, then our beliefs should change, should they not?


Im so glad I got out of that little game :)
And yet here you are...:)
 
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Follower of Christ

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Beliefs -- yours, mine, John's -- are based on facts, or at least our preception of them: What we believe is true or false. If our beliefs are based on something we think is true, and someone shows us how it cannot possibly be true, then our beliefs should change, should they not?

All someone can show is why they PERCEIVE that my beliefs cannot be true....

Unless of course science is now accepting that there IS indeed a such a thing as ABSOLUTE PROOF...:)

 
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Nathan Poe

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Follower of Christ said:
All someone can show is why they PERCEIVE that my beliefs cannot be true....


Well, all you can do is PERCEIVE that they were true in the first place...

Usually, perception is all we have to go on: It certainly looks and feels (perception) that I'm sitting at this computer, but of course I might be hallucinating, having a long and very boring dream, or floating in a tank of pink goo, jacked into the Matrix.

However, since I can't prove any of that, and wouldn't perceive any difference if it were so, then I choose to accept my perceptions as reality until I have reason not to.



of course science is now accepting that there IS indeed a such a thing as ABSOLUTE PROOF...:)
No, but philosophy does acknowledge the existence of self-evident truths, which are accepted at face value and usually require little to no explanation. Of course, even those truths are based on what we know and believe to be true at the time.
 
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JohnR7

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Follower of Christ said:
The hebrews were very meticulous with records and geneologies... :)
Exactly, there are people who devote their whole life to doing a study on the genologys. There is no reason to give equal importance to someone who has only spent maybe five or ten minutes of their life to study the genologys.
 
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JohnR7

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Nathan Poe said:
does that age start from when he was created, or when he was expelled from paradise?
I believe that Adam's age began when he was created.

Since there was no death before the fall, why bother keeping track up until life had a time limit?"
There was no death from sin before the fall. That does not mean there was not death. Actually, Adam and Eve were never to have died. They had the tree of life and we are told that they were to have lived forever.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned--

The Bible clearly talks about how the "brute beasts" were never made to live forever. The problem is that there are men, who were never intended to die, who do indeed die, because of sin.

2 Peter 2:12
But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
 
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Skillz, if you are still reading this, I do have another question. Clearly you hold the snake was not literally a snake and did not literally lose its legs. What about the rest of the story though? Was the tree a literal tree with literal fruit? Are Adam and Eve literal individuals? Can the snake be non-literal if the rest of the story is literal?

I believe the rest of the story IS literal. Why? For one, we know what a tree is, we also know what humans are, but what we don't know, is what or who Satan is. We have seen a tree, we have also seen a man and a woman. But what we have never seen is a Satan *lol*. So the best way to describe Satan would be to use something we have seen or can understand.

We haven't seen a tree which can confer immortal life, nor one that can confer knowledge of good and evil. So IMO that means the trees are not literal trees either, but symbols of spiritual realities. If there was no literal fruit to eat, then nothing in the story happened as described. So why insist that any of it is literal reality rather than a symbol of the human condition?

The writer is clearly portraying Satan as a serpent,

You are assuming the answer to the question at issue. It is NOT clear that the writer is portraying the snake as anything other than a snake. You have to show that the writer (and I mean the writer of Genesis, not the writer of Revelation) intended the snake to portray Satan. Where is that intention made clear?

Can we even establish that the writer had ever heard of Satan?

And this appears to be the only piece of "evidence". But is it evidence? Is it simply a matter of "adding 2 + 2"? What connects the verse in Revelation with the snake in Genesis 3?

As far as I can see, the only connection is the single word, "serpent". That's evidence?


Sure this is evidence. The writer of revelation most likely knew the OT by heart. I'm sure he would know what was being said, escpecially in Genesis.

It may---and I emphasize "may"---be evidence the writer of Revelation was making such a connection, but that has nothing to do with the knowledge or intention of the writer of Genesis. It only means that John may have been adding an interpretation to the literal meaning of the Genesis writer. It does not change what the intended meaning of the Genesis writer is. Who knows? S/he may have disagreed with John.

Now let us Observe the following:

Revelation 12 : 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Let's see, it says that the OLD Serpent, CALLED the Devil, AND SATAN! It doesn't just say seprent, but it refers to the "OLD" serpent which can be found where? Perhaps the Old testament... and Is the Genesis account in the new or old testament?

No, not in the OT. The word "devil" is never used in the OT at all, not even in reference to Satan. And the OT never calls Satan a serpent, nor a serpent, Satan. John must be referring to a tradition from outside the canonical OT writings.

Revelation 20 : 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Which IS the who and the what? It's clear as day....

It is as clear as day in Revelation that John depicts Satan as a dragon or serpent. But you cannot take a text written close to a millennium after Genesis and say that is what the author of Genesis meant. What the author of Genesis meant has to be established from Genesis, not from Revelation. And from other literature contemporaneous with Genesis, not from a literary tradition that grew up centuries later.

We cannot even say for certain that when John refers to Satan as a serpent, that he is specifically thinking of the Genesis story. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. In any case, whatever John is thinking of has no bearing on what the author of Genesis was thinking of centuries earlier.

Throughout Scripture Satan is represented by many symbols that we -as humans- can understand. Such as a roaring lion/star/dragon/ and of course serpent.

Actually, only in the NT. None of the references to Satan in the OT use symbols to portray him. He is one of the heavenly beings like Michael and other archangels. That's all.


You think this is a coincidence of words? I believe you would be fooling yourself to think that these words are coincidental.

What you believe is not an answer.


So how could the writer of Genesis 3 be connecting the snake with Satan if he did not even know of any such being as Satan?

That's the thing. Many writers were suppose to be inspired by God. This shows that God may of actually been the 'inspirerer' *sort of speak* lol
So to this I would say, that the writer may not of known, but God did.
Hey, makes a good arguement for a divine hand working through the writers.

Sorry, I don't buy the idea that inspiration consists in automatically writing ideas one is not consciously aware of. That is inconsistent with the bible's own testimony of how it was written. Paul knew what he was writing in his letters. Jeremiah knew what he was dictating to Baruch. I think it is clear that all biblical writers were in full possession of their faculties while under inspiration and only wrote what they themselves, and their contemporaries, could understand.

So, if, as seems to be the case, Satan was not a religious figure when Genesis was written, the author of Genesis had no basis on which to make the serpent the symbol of a being he had never heard of.


I don't see how one can call oneself a literalist if this confusion is permitted.

You got that right...

Yet you indulge in the same confusion yourself. As you have done in the next paragraph.

A talking snake? Why would the snake tell eve to disobey God? We can infer that the snake was evil because it transgressed against God's law. Now was it the snake who questioned God's authority... or was it Satan himself. I think it's perfectly clear, Satan was in the garden of Eden. Satan was talking to Eve not a literal snake.

See, you say yourself, it was Satan, not a literal snake. This is a non-literal interpretation of the text. It is not a literal reading of the text. You cannot have it both ways. The literal reading is "snake". Your interpretation of the reading is Satan.

Hence, you are not reading the text literally. OK?

I prefer to let the Bible interpret itself.

May I remind you the bible is a book made of paper? It has no capacity to interpret itself. Even when you base your interpretation of Genesis on a passage from Revelation, it is not the bible interpreting itself. It is you interpreting the bible.

I disagree with your method of interpretation, for it is not a sound method of interpretation. You are not paying attention to the separate contexts of the two passages or showing that the texts are intended to be connected. Furthermore, you are assuming that because a later writer interprets an earlier writer, that this changes the intended message of the earlier writer. It doesn't. It only tells us what John's thinking was, not what the thinking of the author of Genesis was.

In short, Genesis can influence Revelation, but Revelation cannot influence Genesis. Importing an idea from Revelation into Genesis is anachronistic. It obscures rather than reveals the meaning of Genesis.
 
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MQTA

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Nathan Poe said:
...

Beliefs -- yours, mine, John's -- are based on facts, or at least our preception of them: What we believe is true or false. If our beliefs are based on something we think is true, and someone shows us how it cannot possibly be true, then our beliefs should change, should they not?
...
10 years ago we'd not be having these discussions. 10 years ago the Bible was the source. 10 years ago, each book was what it said it was. 10 years ago, people from varying backgrounds rarely had these discussions, except maybe late night in some bars.

In the last few years a lot of people seem to have been quite busy making websites. People are not only challenging old written works and beliefs, they're doing rather well at it. Finding conflicts, errors, passages saying not to do something, and other passages saying it's ok. These were not looked for, found, known, cared about, thought of, years ago.

Things are indeed changing. The choice is whether to look and search for them, or ignore their existance. In the last 2 months I've been reading all sorts of pages, many are very recent, so these commentaries and comparisons just weren't around not too long ago.

It's a brave new world.
 
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JohnR7 said:
...
There was no death from sin before the fall. That does not mean there was not death. Actually, Adam and Eve were never to have died. They had the tree of life and we are told that they were to have lived forever.
I thought they were thrown out of the Garden to make sure they never ate from the Tree of Life ????

Genesis 3:22-24

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: 23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

3:22 God expels Adam and Eve from the garden before they get a chance to eat from that other tree -- the tree of life. God knows that if they do that, they well become "like one of us" and live forever.
(who's the "one of us?", that's another question)
 
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Nathan Poe

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JohnR7 said:
I believe that Adam's age began when he was created.


There was no death from sin before the fall. That does not mean there was not death. Actually, Adam and Eve were never to have died. They had the tree of life and we are told that they were to have lived forever.
But if people didn't die from sin, how would they die?

You're the one who suggested that baldness is the result of sin; so why not death?

Otherwise, God created death alone with everything else, and like the rest of his creation, it was good.

That's going to ruffle a few YEC feathers...
 
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Nathan Poe said:
But if people didn't die from sin, how would they die?

You're the one who suggested that baldness is the result of sin; so why not death?

Otherwise, God created death alone with everything else, and like the rest of his creation, it was good.

That's going to ruffle a few YEC feathers...
Now are you beginning to see how it all starts falling apart when folks try to combine Old earth with things like death before Adam ?

It turns into folks having to come up with all sorts of theories that neither the pure evolutionist believes OR the scriptures teach or even allow for...

Death before sin is NOT scriptural, but Im sure there are a great many brethren who will find a way to distort scripture to make it so..

I wont give you any ammo, Ill bet if you spent a few hours looking at scripture you could find hundreds of arguements that would shoot down the christian evolutionist...

Right off the bat, Genesis 1 doesnt indicate anything but normal days......
And a Gap theory isnt in the text either.....
So Long days or Gap ideas NEITHER fit the texts...

Not to mention that Paul says death entered the scene becuase of death.
So the Old earther has to come up with things to make their theory work that scripture doenst TEACH or IMPLY...
 
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Nathan Poe

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Follower of Christ said:
Now are you beginning to see how it all starts falling apart when folks try to combine Old earth with things like death before Adam ?

It turns into folks having to come up with all sorts of theories that neither the pure evolutionist believes OR the scriptures teach or even allow for...

Death before sin is NOT scriptural, but Im sure there are a great many brethren who will find a way to distort scripture to make it so..
Indeed, see what happens when we try to reconcile science with Biblical literalism?

But hey, at least John's trying to learn new things.
 
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Nathan Poe said:
Indeed, see what happens when we try to reconcile science with Biblical literalism?

But hey, at least John's trying to learn new things.
Im sure he is.....

What is he learning tho......to trust your always changing theory.....?

NO thanks, Ill pass...
Who knows what is it that youll believe tomorrow...
 
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If there was no physical death before sin, then either god put a cap on that "be fruitful and muliply" command and forgot to tell us, or sin was not only expected from the beginning but required. Since no death means it wouldn't take long for Adam to be breathing bugs and stepping on rabbits.

If there was no physical death before sin, then all of that "micro evolving" must have done wonders to produce animals so ready to begin killing. Either that or god again designed animals expecting sin.

Follower of Christ said:
Now are you beginning to see how it all starts falling apart when folks try to combine Old earth with things like death before Adam ?

It turns into folks having to come up with all sorts of theories that neither the pure evolutionist believes OR the scriptures teach or even allow for...

Death before sin is NOT scriptural, but Im sure there are a great many brethren who will find a way to distort scripture to make it so..
 
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