If You Believe in This One Doctrine. . .

[FreeGrace2]

I’m of the opinion that God chooses whom He decides to choose.

Hm. You just accused me of circular argument. And here you state your opinion is that God basically chooses whom He chooses.

 

[renniks]

Where does scripture say that?

What scripture says grace is irresistible? We come to our conclusions based on the evidence, not because the scripture spells out the doctrines in neat little packages.
Some examples of preveniant grace:

Acts 2 reports that on the day of Pentecost "Jews from every nation under heaven" (Acts 2:5) were gathered together and after hearing the apostle Peter's discourse, they were awakened by the Spirit and asked the apostle, "What shall we do?" (Acts 2:37). They were not saved at this point so why are they asking unless God's grace had preveniently gone before and convicted them of their sins?

In Acts 8 we see the Ethiopian eunuch so moved by the Spirit as to read Isaiah. When Philip was led to join him in the Bible study the Ethiopian was eager to receive greater instruction (Acts 8:31). Why?

In Acts 10 we see the Holy Spirit working with devout Cornelius and causing Peter to go to him. Cornelius was not a New Testament Christian at this time, but was a "God-fearer" because he sought to serve God in spirit and in truth.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Thank you. I was overcomplicating in my mind a simple concept.

I have done that and sometimes still do.
We desire to be careful with study which is fine but we go right past truth right there in the open.
Think this way, in Gen it says Adam knew his wife, and she conceived. Later on it says he knew his wife again and she conceived.
It was an intimate knowledge...a special love

God loves the elect like that, WHOM He did foreknow....God loves sinners in Christ.

 

[Hammster]

What scripture says grace is irresistible?

No, what scripture says “God's conviction frees us from slavery and we make a choice for or against accepting salvation.”?

 

[BBAS 64]

Hi Bill,
Why were they not able to hear God's Word?

My hunch is that they were too prejudiced by their own traditions created by Rabbinical Judaism.
An example today would be the glossing over of passages like Isa 53 and Ps 22.

Good Day, Crossnote

Good question Jesus gives the reason to them in the very next section:

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Th offer still stands we can walk though a large section of John 8 if you would like.

In Him,

Bill

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Could you be so kind as to quote the very best verse that says God has preordained anyone to salvation?

I've examined every verse in the NT about election and am wondering how I could have missed such a verse. Thank you."

You can remain ignorant of Divine truth if you want to.

Wow. Now, that's an intelligent response, huh.

I ask for evidence for my "ignorance" and you shut down. Cool.

Roman's 8 does not say God looked you see who would believe.

Nor did I ever say that.

Paul already taught that God looked to see if there were any who did understand and seek God.....no, there was not one.

Correct. We're all ignorant.

People like you ignore truth and supply your carnal ideas.

Even after explaining that I've thoroughly examined (that means I've been reading through the NT monthly for way over a decade) the NT and haven't found any such verse, you still seem to think that I'm ignoring truth. And after ASKING for some evidence that supports your claim.

The real ignorer here is yourself. You are ignoring my question and request for evidence.

So, instead of having evidence, you choose ad hominem. Cool again.

The word of God is not to be mocked as you set out to do

Oh really? How have I done that? Again, I asked for some evidence, and now I'm accused of mocking God?

Your imbecilic comment on Hebrews2:9, and John 6 demonstrates no capacity or desire for truth at this time.

Oh, I see. I'm just not smart enough to appreciate all that evidence that you're withholding from me.

Life is too short to deal with clown like posts like this.

What is really going on is that you've been cornered and you have NO EVIDENCE at all for your claims. So you go on the attack.

But to lower yourself to ad hominem is something else.

When someone asks for evidence or more information, it's never cool to attack their character. That says a whole lot more about your own self than the seeker of truth that you mock.

 

[FreeGrace2]

renniks said: ↑
What scripture says grace is irresistible?

No, what scripture says “God's conviction frees us from slavery and we make a choice for or against accepting salvation.”?

I've always loved these kinds of dodges.

 

[renniks]

No, what scripture says “God's conviction frees us from slavery and we make a choice for or against accepting salvation.”?

Lol, answer the question. I already told you, it's illustrated, not spelled out.

 

[Hammster]

renniks said: ↑
What scripture says grace is irresistible?

I've always loved these kinds of dodges.

He’s the one dodging. He made a statement and I’m just asking him to defend it.

 

[Hammster]

Lol, answer the question. I already told you, it's illustrated, not spelled out.

No, you haven’t. No scripture stating such a concept.

 

[renniks]

No, you haven’t. No scripture stating such a concept.

And no scripture says grace is irresistible.

 

[crossnote]

Good Day, Crossnote

Good question Jesus gives the reason to them in the very next section:

Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

Th offer still stands we can walk though a large section of John 8 if you would like.

In Him,

Bill

So, you think the Pharisee leaders only were children of the devil when Scripture tells us that we were all by nature the same? ...

Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB
[1] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, [2] in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. [3] Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

 

[BBAS 64]

So, you think the Pharisee leaders only were children of the devil when Scripture tells us that we were all by nature the same? ...

Ephesians 2:1-3 NASB
[1] And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, [2] in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. [3] Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

Good Day, Crossnote

No... You asked a question about the text and in the very next segment of the written text was your answer....,

What I was doing was thinking it may be a good idea to read the words of the text in it's own context. You might find that helpful in answering your question about what the text means, by the words that are used in the text.

I am Jesus said they were explicitly in the text, there fore we must conclude they in fact are...

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.



Now you can attempt to to construct a contradiction of that truth by mis-application of other texts. But rest assured that in no way undermines what Jesus said by the words he used. Words have meaning (objectively) thus are used to convey ideas, and truths, and that is inescapable.


Edit to add continue reading in Eph

You were and Formally Past tense:

What Happened God happened.... he made alive, he raised us up, he seated us with Him ( the Father) in the Son why so that he might show the greatness of His mercy and Grace toward us in the Son.

Nothing about us doing anything... Read the Word.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


In Him,

Bill

 

[Hammster]

And no scripture says grace is irresistible.

I wasn’t making an argument. You were. And since you won’t defend your statement, I’ll let it go.

 

[renniks]

I wasn’t making an argument. You were. And since you won’t defend your statement, I’ll let it go.

I already showed how preveniant grace is illustrated in scripture. Seems to me that the balls in your court.

 

[crossnote]

Good Day, Crossnote

No... You asked a question about the text and in the very next segment of the written text was your answer....,

What I was doing was thinking it may be a good idea to read the words of the text in it's own context. You might find that helpful in answering your question about what the text means, by the words that are used in the text.

I am Jesus said they were explicitly in the text, there fore we must conclude they in fact are...

You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.



Now you can attempt to to construct a contradiction of that truth by mis-application of other texts. But rest assured that in no way undermines what Jesus said by the words he used. Words have meaning (objectively) thus are used to convey ideas, and truths, and that is inescapable.


Edit to add continue reading in Eph

You were and Formally Past tense:

What Happened God happened.... he made alive, he raised us up, he seated us with Him ( the Father) in the Son why so that he might show the greatness of His mercy and Grace toward us in the Son.

Nothing about us doing anything... Read the Word.

But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.


In Him,

Bill

Yes, words have meaning...in their proper context. I was bringing out the larger context of Scripture which includes Paul's teaching on the matter. Paul shows that all people originally have the same nature as the Pharisees. The same applies to when Jesus was saying 'you are of your father, the devil'. None of us are born with the new birth, we must be born again, including those Pharisees in John 8.
Maybe we are talking past each other, if so, state clearly your objection to what I have said in a sentence or two.

 

[Hammster]

I already showed how preveniant grace is illustrated in scripture. Seems to me that the balls in your court.

That’s not what I was asking about. And since you won’t address what I asked about, I’m not sure of your intent.

 

[FreeGrace2]

He’s the one dodging. He made a statement and I’m just asking him to defend it.

I don't recall that you provide answers to anyone.

 

[Hammster]

I don't recall that you provide answers to anyone.

I don’t think you are comprehending what I’m saying. Maybe it’s because you interjected yourself into a conversation midway. I’m not sure. But whatever is the reason, you are definitely missing something.

 

[renniks]

That’s not what I was asking about. And since you won’t address what I asked about, I’m not sure of your intent.

Now I have no idea what you're talking about. Preveniant grace frees the person to make a choice, as illustrated.