If You Believe in This One Doctrine. . .

[Hammster]

Now I have no idea what you're talking about. Preveniant grace frees the person to make a choice, as illustrated.

I don't see why. God's spirit convicts and frees us from the slavery of sin so we can make a real choice for or against him.

I guess I need to refresh your memory. I’m wanting you to show scriptural support for your idea that we are all freed from the slavery of sin.

 

[renniks]

I guess I need to refresh your memory. I’m wanting you to show scriptural support for your idea that we are all freed from the slavery of sin.

It's exactly what Jesus said he came to do at the beginning of his ministry:
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,

because the Lord has anointed me

to bring good news to the poor;

he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,

to proclaim liberty to the captives,

and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

 

[Hammster]

It's exactly what Jesus said he came to do at the beginning of his ministry:
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me,

because the Lord has anointed me

to bring good news to the poor;

he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted,

to proclaim liberty to the captives,

and the opening of the prison to those who are bound;

Still nothing about all being freed from slavery. So let’s just stop the charade right now.

 

[renniks]

Still nothing about all being freed from slavery. So let’s just stop the charade right now.

Who is this offer of freedom made to? Whosoever will.
The"true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. John 1:9

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I said:
"Could you be so kind as to quote the very best verse that says God has preordained anyone to salvation?

I've examined every verse in the NT about election and am wondering how I could have missed such a verse. Thank you."

Wow. Now, that's an intelligent response, huh.

I ask for evidence for my "ignorance" and you shut down. Cool.


Nor did I ever say that.


Correct. We're all ignorant.


Even after explaining that I've thoroughly examined (that means I've been reading through the NT monthly for way over a decade) the NT and haven't found any such verse, you still seem to think that I'm ignoring truth. And after ASKING for some evidence that supports your claim.

The real ignorer here is yourself. You are ignoring my question and request for evidence.

So, instead of having evidence, you choose ad hominem. Cool again.


Oh really? How have I done that? Again, I asked for some evidence, and now I'm accused of mocking God?


Oh, I see. I'm just not smart enough to appreciate all that evidence that you're withholding from me.


What is really going on is that you've been cornered and you have NO EVIDENCE at all for your claims. So you go on the attack.

But to lower yourself to ad hominem is something else.

When someone asks for evidence or more information, it's never cool to attack their character. That says a whole lot more about your own self than the seeker of truth that you mock.

You are not looking for an answer, you are another one who is trying to be cute, and play with words.
I know that because if you were seeking answers you would have responded to the little that was offered. You did not.
Instead you ignore the passage explaining itself ,which would give you the answer.
It does not say everyman......is says everyone, then the other verses tell us who it is speaking of,the church, those who are given, the children,those sanctified, the seed of Abraham.
To bypass that is to declare That you prefer to not really seek out an answer,but make clown posts hoping the crowd will approve.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don’t think you are comprehending what I’m saying.

No need to assume anything. I know exactly what's going on.

Maybe it’s because you interjected yourself into a conversation midway.

Facts are facts, regardless of when introduced.

I’m not sure. But whatever is the reason, you are definitely missing something.

Well, only you know the reason that answers aren't forthcoming.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are not looking for an answer, you are another one who is trying to be cute, and play with words.

Your assumptions are quite incorrrect. I asked for evidence and you haven't provided any. Lots of excuses, but no evidence.

I know that because if you were seeking answers you would have responded to the little that was offered. You did not.

I sure did. I noted that none of the verses contained any evidence for your claim.

Instead you ignore the passage explaining itself ,which would give you the answer.

Oh, "explain itself", eh? How about John 10:28 that very clearly explains itself. That recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

It does not say everyman......is says everyone, then the other verses tell us who it is speaking of,the church, those who are given, the children,those sanctified, the seed of Abraham.

There is no difference between "everyman" and "everyone", so please don't play word games here.

Just what are these "other verses" that you refer to?

To bypass that is to declare That you prefer to not really seek out an answer,but make clown posts hoping the crowd will approve.

I haven't bypassed anything. And it seems you just can't resist your ad hominem style of posting.

But that's easier than providing evidence that doesn't exist.

I said:
"Could you be so kind as to quote the very best verse that says God has preordained anyone to salvation?"

You still haven't provided any evidence for your claim.

 

[Hammster]

Who is this offer of freedom made to? Whosoever will.
The"true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. John 1:9

Still nothing about freeing from slavery. I’m starting to think you made that up.

 

[Hammster]

Well, only you know the reason that answers aren't forthcoming.

I guess it’s because he doesn’t have any.

 

[renniks]

Still nothing about freeing from slavery. I’m starting to think you made that up.

Um, Jesus said exactly that. And he was the light. If you can't see the obvious, you're not trying to.

 

[Hammster]

Um, Jesus said exactly that. And he was the light. If you can't see the obvious, you're not trying to.

What I can’t see are the actual verses that state what you claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Well, only you know the reason that answers aren't forthcoming.

I guess it’s because he doesn’t have any.

I don't think anyone who has followed our posts thinks I was referring to someone else. Another nice dodge.

 

[Hammster]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Well, only you know the reason that answers aren't forthcoming.

I don't think anyone who has followed our posts thinks I was referring to someone else. Another nice dodge.

I’m interested to know what you think I’m dodging.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’m interested to know what you think I’m dodging.

Answers to questions.

But don't worry about it.

 

[Hammster]

Answers to questions.

But don't worry about it.

Let me know when one is asked.

 

[BBAS 64]

Yes, words have meaning...in their proper context. I was bringing out the larger context of Scripture which includes Paul's teaching on the matter. Paul shows that all people originally have the same nature as the Pharisees. The same applies to when Jesus was saying 'you are of your father, the devil'. None of us are born with the new birth, we must be born again, including those Pharisees in John 8.
Maybe we are talking past each other, if so, state clearly your objection to what I have said in a sentence or two.

Good Day, Crossnote

I do not really have any objection... as I recall ( and I am over 50 now)... we agree there are people that can not hear the word of God. The reason Jesus says they can not is because they are of their Father the Devil.. he also says in Jn 8 that if God was your Father then you could and do hear. That is right in Jn 8, That is why I made the offer I did.

I do agree with you here so the question is what happens when we are born again, and what is it's cause.

In Him,

Bill

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let me know when one is asked.

Here's one for you to answer.

Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe?

Now, I know that Calvinists never would describe their doctrine of election this way, but that is ultimately what is meant.

The Calvinist doctrine is that God chooses certain ones for salvation. By itself, that is true. And those He chooses to save are believers. 1 Cor 1:21.

They also agree that God's plan involves faith in Christ for salvation.

So, they claim that God regenerates those certain ones so that they are then able to believe, since in their unregenerate state they cannot believe.

 

[Hammster]

Here's one for you to answer.

Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe?

Now, I know that Calvinists never would describe their doctrine of election this way, but that is ultimately what is meant.

The Calvinist doctrine is that God chooses certain ones for salvation. By itself, that is true. And those He chooses to save are believers. 1 Cor 1:21.

They also agree that God's plan involves faith in Christ for salvation.

So, they claim that God regenerates those certain ones so that they are then able to believe, since in their unregenerate state they cannot believe.

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
— Titus 2:11-12

John 10.

John 3.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked:
"Where does the Bible teach that God chooses who will believe?

Now, I know that Calvinists never would describe their doctrine of election this way, but that is ultimately what is meant.

The Calvinist doctrine is that God chooses certain ones for salvation. By itself, that is true. And those He chooses to save are believers. 1 Cor 1:21.

They also agree that God's plan involves faith in Christ for salvation.

So, they claim that God regenerates those certain ones so that they are then able to believe, since in their unregenerate state they cannot believe."

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
— Titus 2:11-12

Thanks for your answers.

However Titus 2:11-12 doesn't say anything about who God chooses to save. Instead, salvation is said to be brought "to all men", not some select group.

v.12 teaches that God's grace instructs us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righrteously and godly in the present age. Again, nothing about who God chooses to save.

John 10.

This is not an answer, any more than Gen 1:1 through Rev 22:21 is an answer about where a particular subject is found in the Bible.

John 3.

Ditto.

What the Bible does teach on the subject of salvation is that God chooses to save believers.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

God was pleased to save those who believe. That's who God chooses to save.

In fact, election isn't even about being chosen for salvation. Rather, it's about being chosen for service.

As you demonstrated, there are no verses about God electing anyone to salvation.

 

[crossnote]

I do not really have any objection... as I recall ( and I am over 50 now)... we agree there are people that can not hear the word of God.

(FWIW I'm over 70) We agree that there are some people who will not hear the word of God, but only logistics or deprivation would put them in a position so they cannot hear.

The reason Jesus says they can not is because they are of their Father the Devil.. he also says in Jn 8 that if God was your Father then you could and do hear. That is right in Jn 8, That is why I made the offer I did.

I'm not sure which verse you are referring to but here is what I see in vss. 47, 42,43...

Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” John 8:47

It appears here that the reason they 'can not' or 'will not' hear is because they are not of God. The observable reason that they are not of God is explained here...

Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. John 8:42

In the next verse Jesus does not say 'you cannot' hear my word, but you cannot 'bear to hear' my word which speaks to their will...

Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. John 8:43

This is why I choose the stand that they 'will not hear' over 'they can not hear'.