If You Believe in This One Doctrine. . .

[jimmyjimmy]

Then Election is Necessary

If you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity, then it will follow that you will understand the necessity of Election.

Questions?

 

[thecolorsblend]

If you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity, then it will follow that you will understand the necessity of Election.

Questions?

I don't really buy into TULIP. However, I do acknowledge that you are correct in the sense that "total depravity" would necessitate "unconditional election". TULIP is an internally logical system.

The problem, as ever, is that I think TULIP itself is absolute nonsense.

 

[A_Thinker]

Then Election is Necessary

If you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity, then it will follow that you will understand the necessity of Election.

Questions?

Was Noah depraved ? Esther ? Joseph ?

 

[Hammster]

Was Noah depraved ? Esther ? Joseph ?

Yep.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Then Election is Necessary

If you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity, then it will follow that you will understand the necessity of Election.

Questions?

I lean towards total depravity. I believe that election is according to God's foreknowledge. What I don't know is what foreknowledge means. However, I also believe in the power of the gospel to save. Somehow the Word of God cuts through the darkness of the sinner's mind to bring conviction of sin and the knowledge of Christ as Saviour. Since no one can be sure who is "elect" and who is not, we need to preach the gospel at any opportunity.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I lean towards total depravity. I believe that election is according to God's foreknowledge. What I don't know is what foreknowledge means. However, I also believe in the power of the gospel to save. Somehow the Word of God cuts through the darkness of the sinner's mind to bring conviction of sin and the knowledge of Christ as Saviour. Since no one can be sure who is "elect" and who is not, we need to preach the gospel at any opportunity.

I don't think a Calvinist would disagree with any of that; however, it would all depend on what you mean by, "foreknowledge".

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Was Noah depraved ? Esther ? Joseph ?

Totally.

 

[A_Thinker]

Totally.

Job ?

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

 

[Tzav]

I had No Clue about total depravity until I was in the latter half of a soteriology class, and my sin was strongly displayed to me, in my mind. I mean, by that, I had a sudden knowledge of my filthy sins that I never knew before.

I thought I was a pretty good person, until that night. And I knew that it was G_D-revealed. I nearly went to the floor in shock and horror! But it sure changed my life! For the First Time Ever, I knew I was a believer . . . after 50.5 years of thinking (maybe) I was a believer!!

 

[renniks]

Then Election is Necessary

If you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity, then it will follow that you will understand the necessity of Election.

Questions?

Define total depravity.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Job ?

1 In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil.

Does Blameless = Sinless?

Did Christ not need to die for Job?

 

[Aussie Pete]

I don't think a Calvinist would disagree with any of that; however, it would all depend on what you mean by, "foreknowledge".

Like I said, I don't know.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Does Blameless = Sinless?

Did Christ not need to die for Job?

He sure did. Job was self-righteous. It's one of the main points of the account.

 

[Charlie24]

Then Election is Necessary

If you understand the doctrine of Total Depravity, then it will follow that you will understand the necessity of Election.

Questions?

I believe in total depravity. I believe without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb.11:6.

Where does this faith come from in order to believe?

Rom. 10:17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The faith to believe comes from hearing the gospel message in the Word of God. The Holy Spirit convicts mans heart of sin. It cuts like a knife into the deepest part of the heart.

Two men sit in the church and hear the gospel preached. One steps forward believing the call of the gospel.

The other resists the calling of the Holy Spirit from the Gospel and remains sitting.

Did God flip a switch for one to respond and not for the other? Did God intend for just this one man to hear Gospel? No, He did not!!!

The preacher did his job, the Holy Spirit did His job, and now man must choose. He cannot pretend it didn't happen, he will accept or reject that Gospel.

He is accepted or condemned by his own choice.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I had No Clue about total depravity until I was in the latter half of a soteriology class, and my sin was strongly displayed to me, in my mind. I mean, by that, I had a sudden knowledge of my filthy sins that I never knew before.

I thought I was a pretty good person, until that night. And I knew that it was G_D-revealed. I nearly went to the floor in shock and horror! But it sure changed my life! For the First Time Ever, I knew I was a believer . . . after 50.5 years of thinking (maybe) I was a believer!!

We all start in the state.

The Law brings many of us to the end of ourselves, eventually.

 

[Aussie Pete]

Does Blameless = Sinless?

Did Christ not need to die for Job?

And Job did not know God. He knew about God. That's another major point of the story.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Job was self-righteous. It's one of the main points of the account.

That is a controversial view, but I tend to agree with it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I don't really buy into TULIP. However, I do acknowledge that you are correct in the sense that "total depravity" would necessitate "unconditional election". TULIP is an internally logical system.

The problem, as ever, is that I think TULIP itself is absolute nonsense.

So, I'm an intelectually consistent idiot.

 

[redleghunter]

Like I said, I don't know.

Some believe foreknowledge is “foreknowledge of God seeing someone in the future exercising faith, choosing Him and then God chooses them.”


It’s a semi-Pelagian view which implies there is enough inner goodness in a person to be able to recognize God’s Grace and choose Him.

The Council of Orange in 529 accepted most of the the beliefs of St Augustine thus condemning Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. Yet semi-Pelagianism is alive and well today.

https://www.theopedia.com/Council_of_Orange

The Canons of the Council of Orange (circa 529 AD) | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

 

[Aussie Pete]

Some believe foreknowledge is “foreknowledge of God seeing someone in the future exercising faith, choosing Him and then God chooses them.”


It’s a semi-Pelagian view which implies there is enough inner goodness in a person to be able to recognize God’s Grace and choose Him.

The Council of Orange in 529 accepted most of the the beliefs of St Augustine thus condemning Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. Yet semi-Pelagianism is alive and well today.

Not my view. Man has both good and evil in the sense of knowing what is good, courtesy of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. That man is unable to meet God's standard of "good" is pretty much obvious. And whatever is not of faith is sin. No one escapes that!