If you aren't raptured up, can you still be saved?

Jan001 · May 27, 2020

keras said:
I showed where the 'one hour' of Rev 17:12, represented a short time of 3 1/2 years.
Now you prove the 1000 years represents anything other than exactly a thousand orbits of the earth around the sun.

It is nonsense to think the 1000 years mentioned six times in Revelation 20, means 2000 years; the period since Jesus was here last.
Jesus prophesied this intra-Advent period; Luke 13:32 says He will work for 2 'days', then attain His reward.
1 day in heaven is as 1000 years on earth, Psalms 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8. He is working with His faithful people now and when He physically Returns, He will reign as King over the world for the final 1000 years of world history.

This "a thousand" in 2 Peter 3:8 is symbolic. Peter is teaching them that they must always be spiritually ready for the Lord to end their earthly existence because at the time of death they will be judged worthy or unworthy to inherit eternal life according to their own works.

2 Peter 3:3-13
First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things have continued as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago, and an earth formed out of water and by means of water, 6 through which the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist have been stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise as some count slowness, but is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.
11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire! 13 But according to his promise we wait for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Hebrews 9:27
But as it is, he (Jesus) has appeared once (first coming) for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time (second coming), not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

There is no rapture and literal "one thousand years" of Jesus Christ reigning physically on earth in Jerusalem. He has already appeared the first time to offer Himself on the cross and He will appear just once more (second/final time) along with His angels and with His saints whose bodies were asleep/dead but whose bodies are made eternally alive at the sound of the trumpet. They will all meet the faithful people who are still alive on earth. The faithful people on earth will also receive their resurrected bodies at the sound of the last trumpet.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep (die physically), but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

Please note that no one is "caught up together in the clouds" aka "raptured" with Jesus Christ until after the resurrection of the dead. After the resurrection of the dead is the white throne/sheep and goats judgment of all peoples of all nations.

Matthew 25:31-33
When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

2 Thessalonians 1:6-10
and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

Revelation 20:11-12
Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.

2 Timothy 4:1
I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:

The dead are resurrected at the time of Jesus Christ's second/final coming. The faithful resurrected people will then accompany Jesus Christ and His angels to earth to be caught up together with His followers in the air/clouds and then they will all attend the sheep and goats/white throne judgment.

keras · May 27, 2020

Jan001 said:
The dead are resurrected at the time of Jesus Christ's second/final coming. The faithful resurrected people will then accompany Jesus Christ and His angels to earth to be caught up together with His followers in the air/clouds and then they will all attend the sheep and goats/white throne judgment.

Unfortunately this belief does not comport with how the Bible tells things will happen.
Revelation 20:4 is quite clear; the ONLY dead people who will be brought back to life at Jesus return, will be the martyrs killed during the GT.
Revelation 20:5 The rest of the dead do not come to life until the thousand years has ended.

Plain Words, why believe anything else?

Davy · May 29, 2020

Jan001 said:
How many hills are meant in the following?

Psalm 50:10
For every beast of the forest is mine, the cattle on a thousand hills.

Do you believe that God owns all the cattle on only a literal "one thousand hills" or does God actually own all the cattle on all the many thousands of hills on earth?

You can't just pull out phrases in God's Word that use the number 'one thousand' and apply it out of context to another chapter or verse! God's Word is not a roulette wheel!

The "thousand years" in Revelation 20 is a literal period of time. The usage of "thousand" in that Psalms verse is used as a metaphor. It's the difference in context where one Scripture is metaphorical, while the other Scripture is literal.

Davy · May 29, 2020

Jan001 said:
Jesus is reigning with His saints in heaven right now and from there they will all continue to reign over all the earth until it is time for His second/final coming. Jesus destroys the power of death at the time of His second/final coming. No one will ever physically die after Jesus comes again and this is because His second coming will destroy the power of death over mankind. The resurrection of the dead will precede Jesus' "catching up" of His people who are still alive on earth.

No, Jesus is NOT yet reigning over all nations today, for that specific is what that future prophecy is about as written. You are purposefully distorting that prophecy!

And NO, the power of death is NOT yet destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming, simply because John 5:28-29 reveals at His return the "resurrection of damnation" will happen! I'll bet you missed that Scripture! Until Satan and ALL the wicked who refuse The Father and Son are destroyed in the "lake of fire", only then will death and hell be destroyed, as written at the end of Rev.20.

Pop Christianity loves to make up their own doctrines instead of staying in The Word of God, and that's mostly what you are espousing.

BABerean2 · May 29, 2020

Davy said:
And NO, the power of death is NOT yet destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming, simply because John 5:28-29 reveals at His return the "resurrection of damnation" will happen!

For how many years will Jesus be conducting funeral services after His Second Coming?

How many mortals are found alive on the planet at the end of Matthew 25:31-46?

How will mortals survive "the flaming fire" at His return described in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10?
When does the fire come in Revelation chapter 20?

What was Peter looking for on the day of the Lord, when He returns as a thief, in 2 Peter 3:10-13?

Why is the time of the judgment of the dead found in Revelation 11:15-18, and also at the end of Revelation chapter 20?

(Problems with the Premill. doctrine)

.

parousia70 · May 29, 2020

boxman144 said:
Recently a lot of people are saying that the Rapture is coming soon, and that Jesus is coming for his spotless bride.

Nothing Recent About this.
People have been saying He's coming soon for 2000 years.
The Apostles were the first to say it, and in my view, they are the ONLY ones we can trust to have spoken infallibly on the matter.

SeventyOne · May 29, 2020

boxman144 said:
Hi guys, I had a question.

Recently a lot of people are saying that the Rapture is coming soon, and that Jesus is coming for his spotless bride. They are also saying that a lot of Christians will not be raptured as well.

My question is, if you believe in Christ, and you are not raptured up during the time of the Rapture, can you still be saved during the Tribulation?

Here's a post from Robert Lyte on YouTube:

MANY WILL NOT MAKE THE RAPTURE
Contrary to popular belief, not many believers will make the rapture. The reason being, is because they wont be found worthy on the day the Lord calls his faithful bride. Many teach that as long as you are a believing Christian, that you will go in the rapture. This is lies. Truth is, as long as you are obedient to Christ, have learned your lessons to overcome your sins in his name, and have walked according to his will, you will be ready. If you are instead lukewarm and in your sins never committing a life to Christ being faithful to him, you will find yourself being left behind along with all those who never overcame the flesh, and their pet sins.

Everyone who is called, has a battle to endure and win. If you win you will go as an overcomer. If you remain proud and stuck in your sins with a hard heart, then you will have to remain behind for refining with many lashes during the Great Tribulation.

A lot of Christians are still living for their future dreams and career goals, many still chase after sports, fun, and entertainment. Others are ruined by their love of possession and money ever striving to acquire a good house for themselves, cars and possessions leaving little room in their hearts for the Lord. Others are filing their time with useless entertainment like video games, Netflix, and popular entertainment. They have no room in their minds for Jesus and remembering the Lord, because these other things fill out their time and interests. To them, reading about all God has done in the scriptures is boring and a chore. They are not filled with joy and happiness about all God has done. They are more focused on what fulfils their interests. These will be left behind to be tried with great tribulation to refine their faith, rid themselves of their idols, and be ready to die for the Lord and go be with him forever if they do not fail, fall away, and take the mark of the beast instead. Life is normal enough now, but when they come to take all your freedoms away, and close your internet off, and shutdown your money supply, and FORCE you to make a decision to either serve Christ or serve the devil and be doomed, then the heart will be tried as if with fire, and many will repent and do finally what many of us do today, learning our lessons, enduring, and perfecting in faith instead of just saying we are saved and obedience to God is works, and so bring upon ourselves the terrible troubles ahead. Take heart you who are pure in heart, who suffer for righteousness sake, and bear shame and laughter for Jesus' name in this wicked society, for Jesus is coming and will take us home to be part of the next chapter for earth. Remember it is the pure in heart who shall see God, and purity in heart comes from above so seek that if you lack and are being overwhelmed by the flesh.

Thank you guys,

boxman144

This doesn't make any logical sense. It's a division of the living believers at the time of the rapture into a 'worthy' and 'non-worthy' status, but it doesn't do the same for the dead. If there are these divisions among the living, there is certainly the same division among the dead. Yet, no provision is given for a partial resurrection of the dead saved using the same criteria. This line of thought is nothing more than scare tactics, and not a very well thought out one at that.

parousia70 · May 29, 2020

Davy said:
No, Jesus is NOT yet reigning over all nations today

Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

Ephesians 1:19-23
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

1 Peter 3:22
Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

Revelation 1:5-6
Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

Pop Christianity loves to make up their own doctrines instead of staying in The Word of God

Why then, would you be espousing and teaching the EXACT OPPOSITE of the Word of God above?

Jan001 · Jun 4, 2020

Davy said:
You can't just pull out phrases in God's Word that use the number 'one thousand' and apply it out of context to another chapter or verse! God's Word is not a roulette wheel!

The "thousand years" in Revelation 20 is a literal period of time. The usage of "thousand" in that Psalms verse is used as a metaphor. It's the difference in context where one Scripture is metaphorical, while the other Scripture is literal.

And so you get to decide which is literal and which is metaphorical for your own personal interpretations?

Jan001 · Jun 4, 2020

Davy said:
No, Jesus is NOT yet reigning over all nations today, for that specific is what that future prophecy is about as written. You are purposefully distorting that prophecy!

And NO, the power of death is NOT yet destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming, simply because John 5:28-29 reveals at His return the "resurrection of damnation" will happen! I'll bet you missed that Scripture! Until Satan and ALL the wicked who refuse The Father and Son are destroyed in the "lake of fire", only then will death and hell be destroyed, as written at the end of Rev.20.

Pop Christianity loves to make up their own doctrines instead of staying in The Word of God, and that's mostly what you are espousing.

Jesus is indeed spiritually reigning from heaven over all the earth right now with His saints who rose from the dead at the first resurrection and He will continue to reign there with all His saints over all the earth until the time of His second coming. The first resurrection happened 2000 years ago. There cannot be two "first" resurrections. At His second/final coming, all the rest of the dead will rise.

The "a thousand years" is symbolic for the long time period between Jesus' first coming and His second/final coming.

Matthew 27:50-53
And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit. 51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

This was the first resurrection. The events in the Book of Revelation are not all in chronological order. Some things happened before Jesus was born and some things would happen after Jesus was born and some things will happen at the time of Jesus' second coming and some things will happen shortly after Jesus' second coming.

1 Corinthians 15:22-26
For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

The power of death is destroyed at Jesus' second coming. "All" shall be made alive at Jesus' second coming.

The lawless one is destroyed at the time of Jesus' second coming.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-10
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

And then comes the judgment of all the peoples of all the nations, both those who had physically died and had been resurrected and those whose physical bodies were changed to immortal bodies as they rose to meet the Lord Jesus in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Satan is thrown into the lake of fire at the time of Jesus' second coming.

Revelation 20:7-12
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, that is, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city; but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.

Philippians 2:8-11
And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus is spiritually reigning over all nations today, but until He comes again, every person must choose for himself whether to obey Him as their Lord and King or to not obey Him.

When Jesus returns at His second/final coming, there will be no more physical death.

1 Corinthians 15:51-55
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is thy victory?
O death, where is thy sting?”

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

This event happens at the time of Jesus' second/final coming. All the dead bodies will rise and they will rejoin with their spirits which had already gone to their own places, and then after the final judgment they (both body and spirit together again for eternity) will return to their own places, some to heaven and some to hell.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment,

Immediately after a person's physical death, he is judged and he will then go to his own place that God has prepared for him just as the Rich Man went to hell and Lazarus went to Abraham's bosom which was a holding place in Hades for the righteous to wait until Jesus died on the cross and reopened the gates of heaven for them.

Acts 1:24-25
And they prayed and said, “Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen 25 to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place.”

keras · Jun 5, 2020

Jan001 said:
John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

This event happens at the time of Jesus' second/final coming. All the dead bodies will rise and they will rejoin with their spirits which had already gone to their own places, and then after the final judgment they (both body and spirit together again for eternity) will return to their own places, some to heaven and some to hell.

This assertion is quite wrong. The final Judgment does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

Jan001 · Jun 6, 2020

keras said:
This assertion is quite wrong. The final Judgment does not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15

We are living in the so-called millennium right now! The first resurrection occurred 2000 years ago. There cannot be two "first" resurrections just like you cannot have two "first" birthdays! The "a thousand years" is symbolic for the long time period between Jesus' first coming and His second/final coming. Jesus comes to earth only two times. His first coming was 2000 years ago.

The first resurrection:

Revelation 20:4-6
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him a thousand years.

This first resurrection occurred when Jesus died on the cross.

And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split; 52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many. 54 When the centurion and those who were with him, keeping watch over Jesus, saw the earthquake and what took place, they were filled with awe, and said, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

These righteous people from the first resurrection are in heaven and they are ruling over all the earth right now with Jesus Christ and they will reign there with Him (and with all the other righteous people who have died since this first resurrection (2 Timothy 2:11-13 until Jesus makes His second/final appearance on earth to gather up the remainder of His Church from the earth. When Jesus returns at His second coming, all the bodies of all the dead will rise first before Jesus gathers to Himself the people who are still alive on the earth. The final judgment will then begin shortly after the gathering up of His Church. After the dead are raised and given immortal bodies, the people who are still alive on earth will receive their immortal bodies.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:20-24
But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.

The second/final resurrection will occur when Jesus makes his second/final appearance on earth.

Hebrews 9:27-28
And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many (Jesus' first coming), will appear a second time (to save/remove His Church members who are still on earth before the wrath of God destroys the earth with fire), not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.

2 Peter 3:10-12
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of persons ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, 12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be kindled and dissolved, and the elements will melt with fire!

Please note that when the Lord comes for the second/final time, the earth is burned up. He definitely will not rule bodily in Jerusalem for a literal 1000 years because the physical Jerusalem will burn up when He appears for His second/final time. The final judgment will occur shortly after His second/final appearance.

Jesus comes bodily to earth only two times. The first time was 2000 years ago when He was born in a manger and died for our sins. The second time will be to save His people who are still on earth from the wrath of God.

Jesus' second/final coming:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-8
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering— 6 since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Jesus' first appearance on earth was at the time of His birth. Jesus' second appearance will be shortly before the final judgment. Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus does not come to earth to rule in Jerusalem for a literal 1000 years before His second coming.

keras · Jun 6, 2020

Jan001 said:
We are living in the so-called millennium right now!

Impossible!
Jesus isn't reigning as King over the earth yet.
The final 1000 years of human history will commence when Jesus Returns in His glory. Acts 1:11 Exactly 2000 years since He was physically here last.

Jan001 · Jun 7, 2020

keras said:
Impossible!
Jesus isn't reigning as King over the earth yet.
The final 1000 years of human history will commence when Jesus Returns in His glory. Acts 1:11 Exactly 2000 years since He was physically here last.

How many times do you believe Jesus comes bodily to earth? He came bodily the first time 2000 years ago.

What exactly do you believe happens on earth when Jesus returns at His second coming?

Please show me the scriptures that support your answers.

keras · Jun 7, 2020

Jan001 said:
How many times do you believe Jesus comes bodily to earth? He came bodily the first time 2000 years ago.

What exactly do you believe happens on earth when Jesus returns at His second coming?

Please show me the scriptures that support your answers.

Jesus will Return again physically to the earth. Matthew 16:27, Acts 1:11
He will destroy the armies attacking Jerusalem and chain up the devil. Revelation 19:11-21, 20:1-6
If you don't believe these plainly stated prophesies, then you reject the Bible.

Jan001 · Jun 7, 2020

keras said:
Jesus will Return again physically to the earth. Matthew 16:27, Acts 1:11
He will destroy the armies attacking Jerusalem and chain up the devil. Revelation 19:11-21, 20:1-6
If you don't believe these plainly stated prophesies, then you reject the Bible.

2000 years ago, the power of Jesus Christ's death and resurrection chained up the devil so that the gospel could then spread throughout the whole world.

Acts 1:11
and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

The following is what occurs at Jesus' second coming. Please note that the second resurrection aka the resurrection of the rest of the dead occurs at the same time. These dead people did not rise 2000 years ago at the time of the first coming of Jesus Christ and the first resurrection of the dead as shown in Matthew 27:50-54.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

The dead rise when Jesus returns for the second/final time with flaming fire to burn up the earth:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-8
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering— 6 since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and the works that are upon it will be burned up.

It is not difficult to see that Jesus does not come back to earth to bodily dwell and rule in Jerusalem for a literal 1000 years. When Jesus returns, the resurrection of the dead commences and the earth is then burned up.

The final judgment occurs shortly after.

John 5:28-29
Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

My understanding of the Bible is not the same as yours. That does not mean that I reject the Bible!

keras · Jun 7, 2020

Jan001 said:
The dead rise when Jesus returns for the second/final time with flaming fire to burn up the earth:

2 Thessalonians 1:5-8
This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be made worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering— 6 since indeed God deems it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant rest with us to you who are afflicted, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

I do not expect to change your beliefs, but I want to point out some inconsistencies and context for you to consider:
Pauls prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, is not and cannot be about the Return of Jesus. This glorious event, as described in Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 23:30 and Revelation 19:11, does not mention fire or any destruction other than the attacking armies at Armageddon. Jesus is Returning to the earth to rule it, not to destroy it!

Being revealed in flaming fire doesn't mean His Return, as many other prophesies about that terrible Day, say the Lord will not be seen by all the world then. Habakkuk 3:4, Psalms 18:11.
Verse 10 does say He will reveal His glory to His faithful people, not to the world, as yet. As it says in Rev 14:1, when He selects the 144,000 out of the vast multitude of His faithful people.

Davy · Jun 8, 2020

parousia70 said:
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

That doesn't mean He is LITERALLY REIGNING over all nations and peoples on earth today. God's servants easily know this because His future LITERAL reign over ALL nations, with His elect, is what He said He will do on earth. And it will... be so, whether Satan's little workers like it or not. Their little kings Satan's hosts bowed to will be locked in the pit prison with Satan, when Jesus returns, LITERALLY like He said.

None of your postings of Scripture will go against this. It was written of even back in the Old Testament prophets first. And Apostles Paul, Peter, John, all agree.

Davy · Jun 8, 2020

Jan001 said:
And so you get to decide which is literal and which is metaphorical for your own personal interpretations?

God's Word is the Measure, and the more you get into it, the more you are able to see how that 'Measure' governs interpretation of His Word. So as I was saying, it's not really that difficult to grasp the difference when a metaphor is being given, vs. a real time. Just think how much crazier folks interpretation of the 70 weeks of Daniel would be if God hadn't given specific events to occur with that timing. Same goes for the "thousand years" in Rev.20.

Davy · Jun 8, 2020

Jan001 said:
Jesus is indeed spiritually reigning from heaven over all the earth right now with His saints who rose from the dead at the first resurrection and He will continue to reign there with all His saints over all the earth until the time of His second coming. The first resurrection happened 2000 years ago. There cannot be two "first" resurrections. At His second/final coming, all the rest of the dead will rise.
....

That thinking is such a distortion away from the actual written Scripture that I can't see it worthy of any greater reply than this.

If you aren't raptured up, can you still be saved?

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