CrystalDragon
Well-Known Member
The idea of hell is monstrous. How many people have lived lives of misery because of this teaching?
That is one reason why I'm doubting so heavily. Hell is a monstrous, horrible, unjust, evil concept.
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The idea of hell is monstrous. How many people have lived lives of misery because of this teaching?
That is interesting...can you tell me why?
Sure thing! I find the concept hard to accept. Infinite punishment for finite crimes? Squaring that with a loving and just God is difficult to accomplish, at least for me. And from what I understand, disbelief in God/Jesus is adequate for eternal torment. I know Christians would say, "Hell is separation from God, and you choose separation so He won't force you to spend eternity with Him," or something to that effect. I have a number of issues with such an argument that I'm happy to discuss, if you'd like to go there.
I totally get where you are coming from, but, and I don't even necessarily like this answer, but when you are God, you get to make the rules. So...God hates sin, cannot have anything to do with it. But He made it pretty easy to deal with, for mankind anyway, NOT His Son. Christ did the hard part, he became the death and blood offering that God requires to pay for sin. As mankind, we merely need to have FAITH that Christ is who He is and believe He did what He did. When we stand before God, He will not have a scale, weighing our good actions against our bad, he will look into our hearts and say either, You had faith in my son...or you didn't. There are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many other issues that I even question. But when you get RIGHT down to it, God provided such a gracious way for us to escape hell...
The fact that people may be mainly Christian due to a fear of hell seems to me like an abusive ideology.
Sure thing! I find the concept hard to accept. Infinite punishment for finite crimes? Squaring that with a loving and just God is difficult to accomplish, at least for me. And from what I understand, disbelief in God/Jesus is adequate for eternal torment. I know Christians would say, "Hell is separation from God, and you choose separation so He won't force you to spend eternity with Him," or something to that effect. I have a number of issues with such an argument that I'm happy to discuss, if you'd like to go there.
I totally get where you are coming from, but, and I don't even necessarily like this answer, but when you are God, you get to make the rules. So...God hates sin, cannot have anything to do with it. But He made it pretty easy to deal with, for mankind anyway, NOT His Son. Christ did the hard part, he became the death and blood offering that God requires to pay for sin. As mankind, we merely need to have FAITH that Christ is who He is and believe He did what He did. When we stand before God, He will not have a scale, weighing our good actions against our bad, he will look into our hearts and say either, You had faith in my son...or you didn't. There are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many other issues that I even question. But when you get RIGHT down to it, God provided such a gracious way for us to escape hell...
He wouldn't have needed to if he didn't create hell to begin with. We humans would never create such an unjust evil place.
I want to reply but it'll probably be tomorrow as I am out of time. If I tried now it would be word vomit for sure. Perhaps you can give me more to reply to tomorrow by defining "FAITH" as you used it.
Verse 6 of the same chapter says: 'He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him'.Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Does that mean blind faith, not at all. First, look at the world all around us, the creation, the planet, it is AMAZING, only someone of intelligent design could have made a world so wondrous. Then we have the Holy Spirit, while He is not tangibly visible, there is no deny that He exist and lives in me and through me. Faith is believing who Christ is and what He did...
I do not believe you have sufficient evidence to corroborate your last sentence. IMO if we were capable of so doing we would definitely create such a place for our enemies. Do you think the Nazis would have shied away from the idea? They did their best to create such a place they just lacked the means to impose it universally.
Verse 6 of the same chapter says: 'He that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him'.
If a secularist argues from the starting point of the physical universe without the Creator, and the believer starts with faith, then ultimately the discussion will be circular.
This statement needs some backing up, since science doesn't deal with gods.The thing is Science confirms God, proves Him more and more every day...
You have a point there, but in a way that strengthens my point. Maybe some people like sociopaths would do it who lack empathy (may not be eternal though), but we'd never call it loving. We'd call those people evil. Now when God does that why do we say that he loves us if that's the exact opposite of love. That's what people like the Nazis would do to those they hate.
If the threat of Hell or the promise of Heaven is the motivation for how you behave, I'd say that person is not behaving morally.
This statement needs some backing up, since science doesn't deal with gods.
I agree that if the God of the Bible were true, He'd absolutely be the one who makes the rules. Of course that, in no way, changes how I feel about the concept of Hell.I totally get where you are coming from, but, and I don't even necessarily like this answer, but when you are God, you get to make the rules. So...God hates sin, cannot have anything to do with it. But He made it pretty easy to deal with, for mankind anyway, NOT His Son. Christ did the hard part, he became the death and blood offering that God requires to pay for sin. As mankind, we merely need to have FAITH that Christ is who He is and believe He did what He did. When we stand before God, He will not have a scale, weighing our good actions against our bad, he will look into our hearts and say either, You had faith in my son...or you didn't. There are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many other issues that I even question. But when you get RIGHT down to it, God provided such a gracious way for us to escape hell...
Hebrews 11:1 defines faith as "The substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Does that mean blind faith, not at all. First, look at the world all around us, the creation, the planet, it is AMAZING, only someone of intelligent design could have made a world so wondrous. Then we have the Holy Spirit, while He is not tangibly visible, there is no deny that He exist and lives in me and through me. Faith is believing who Christ is and what He did...
I agree that if the God of the Bible were true, He'd absolutely be the one who makes the rules. Of course that, in no way, changes how I feel about the concept of Hell.
So I'll have to disagree with the statement "He made it pretty easy to deal with," as far as mankind is concerned. It's as simple as accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior, at least to a lot of popular denominations. But is that easy for someone who is unconvinced of the veracity of the story? It's basically framed like Morpheus offering the red or the blue pill. It's easy to make a choice. The pill to devote your life to Christ or the pill to turn your back on Him. What I'm saying is I can't actually accept a pill/choice from someone I believe to be merely a fictional character from a story. I don't see it as making a choice at all. To put it simply, I do not find it easy to believe something with insufficient evidence. I find punishment for honestly coming to conclusions using the faculties I was given repugnant.
Thanks. I find that is one of those words that has a lot of different definitions depending on context or who you are speaking with. I feel like you look at the world and have no choice but to believe, and that makes sense to me. If we are honest, we admit that we can only actually believe things of which we are convinced. If you are using the word like "confidence" or "trust" then you understand that a prerequisite to faith (as you define it) is evidence of some sort. And I can't simply choose to have faith without first being at least somewhat convinced. I wish the "look at the trees"/"watchmaker" argument was as convincing for me as it is for you, but it's not. And while I honestly seek truth with just as much fervor as anyone else and come to my current conclusion, according to the Bible as I understand it, I would be doomed Hell. That just seems like a horrible reason to punish someone for eternity.
Side note: I understand that a lot of Christians have different understandings of Hell and, of course, my reply would be different depending on a different definition of Hell.
I find the evidence for evolution to be convincing.Let me ask you a question, do you believe in evolution?
I find the evidence for evolution to be convincing.