If there is such a thing as apostasy, then is there truly such a thing as an apostate?

[timothyu]

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

[ozso]

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

When I used to teach Sunday school that was a memorization verse for children. So it's hardly untaught.

 

[timothyu]

So it's hardly untaught.

Taught but rarely followed. Fleshy thinking still overrules the will of God.

 

[ozso]

Taught but rarely followed. Fleshy thinking still overrules the will of God.

And you're here to set us onto the narrow path to the Kingdom of God, right?

 

[timothyu]

And you're here to set us onto the narrow path to the Kingdom of God, right?

I sow seeds, I don't determine how they grow. However the moment a person stops to think they have been following tradition it doesn't hurt to see if it matches up with scripture. Tradition for the most part does but as I said it focuses on a tradition that protects the abilty to serve self while claiming to serve God. Grace while overlooking Kingdom. We can't have it both ways.

 

[ozso]

I sow seeds, I don't determine how they grow. However the moment a person stops to think they have been following tradition it doesn't hurt to see if it matches up with scripture. Tradition for the most part does but as I said it focuses on a tradition that protects the abilty to serve self while claiming to serve God. Grace while overlooking Kingdom. We can't have it both ways.

When you put it in plan straightforward terms like that, what you're saying is a lot easier to follow. What you're saying is the teaching of the Catholic and Orthodox church. Among evangelical Protestants it's commonly known as Lordship Salvation. John MacArthur who's a leading proponent of Lordship Salvation, sort of goes by there being two different Gospels, as exemplified in his book titled "The Gospel According to Jesus".

 

[timothyu]

What you're saying is the teaching of the Catholic and Orthodox church. Among evangelical Protestants it's commonly known as Lordship Salvation

All churches since the weaponization of Christianity 1700 years ago
Wouldn't know. Don't follow others.

 

[ozso]

All churches since the weaponization of Christianity 1700 years ago
Wouldn't know. Don't follow others.

Well your lack of knowledge regarding what's taught by others seems to make you think you're teaching something new, but it's not. It's been in practice by the majority of Christians for 2000 years. You've apparently been taught something happened to the Catholic church 1700 years ago, but it seems that you don't really understand what the Catholic and Orthodox church teaches when it comes to taking up our cross, dying to ourselves, and putting the will and plan of God ahead of everything else as Jesus did.

 

[timothyu]

Well your lack of knowledge regarding what's taught by others seems to make you think you're teaching something new, but it's not.

Of course not. It's been in scripture since it was recorded. But misdirection has moved teaching away from Jesus' gospel to another. I will go as far to say that that is not a bad thing either as without the church taking the path it did and rejoining the world there is a good chance scripture itself would have been lost to the world in short order. And don't confuse those who use God to build empires as compared tothose who follow Him

 

[ozso]

Of course not. It's been in scripture since it was recorded. But misdirection has moved teaching away from Jesus' gospel to another. I will go as far to say that that is not a bad thing either as without the church taking the path it did and rejoining the world there is a good chance scripture itself would have been lost to the world in short order. And don't confuse those who use God to build empires as compared tothose who follow Him

But that's not the path the church took 1700 years ago. That's anti-Catholic polemics. Now there are certain doctrines the church got into in the forth century forward that I disagree with. But what's been taught for 2000 years regarding our obligation to live as Jesus did, is the same as what you're talking about. Really it's not a matter of there literally being two gosples, but rather a partial teaching of the gosple by some eveangelical protestant churches. What's often called a watered down gosple.

 

[timothyu]

But that's not the path the church took 1700 years ago.

Meaning?

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Now there are certain doctrines the church got into in the forth century forward that I disagree with.

How do you understand Matthew 16:18 to apply to today?

 

[ozso]

How do you understand Matthew 16:18 to apply to today?

I know you're asking that because the Catholic Church uses that passage to establish papal/vatican authority to issue unbiblical decrees. And while many/most Catholics, including clergy, don't seem to want to admit to it or recognize it, the Council of Trent declared that anyone who doesn't go along with all of them is cursed.

That said, I'll look up the other established views, starting with the Orthodox church, to weigh it out.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

starting with the Orthodox church, to weigh it out.

16th century protestant consults 11th century protestant

 

[ozso]

16th century protestant consults 11th century protestant

Yep. Quite often actually.

 

[Dan Perez]

When you put it in plan straightforward terms like that, what you're saying is a lot easier to follow. What you're saying is the teaching of the Catholic and Orthodox church. Among evangelical Protestants it's commonly known as Lordship Salvation. John MacArthur who's a leading proponent of Lordship Salvation, sort of goes by there being two different Gospels, as exemplified in his book titled "The Gospel According to Jesus".

I have never heard John MacARTHUR ever Preach , of Lordship Salvation that you disagree with , and your verses if you know of any verse that differently ?

dan p

 

[ozso]

I have never heard John MacARTHUR ever Preach , of Lordship Salvation that you disagree with , and your verses if you know of any verse that differently ?

dan p

I can't really figure out what you're trying to say here.