If there is no Pre-Trib Rapture, are you prepared to go through the Tribulation???

[Shocker]

How to get??? So people can control Holy Spirit from that statement.
Interesting.

I think its even easier than that..

God commands that we pray for knowledge and wisdom, things we on our own are not capable of without God.

I think the scriptures come alive when we pray as we read..

Just my experience.. I feel the Spirit the most when Im speaking on the Bible and the verses start flooding my head with the exact right thing to say..

This is most beneficial when drawing others into the faith as God knows just what to say even when we don't..

 

[lecoop]

How to get??? So people can control Holy Spirit from that statement.
Interesting.

It should be obvious that His teaching does not come automatically! Let's see, how many different denominations are there - most thinking THEY have the truth?

The truth is, WE have something to do with the Holy Spirit teaching us.

LAMAD

 

[Messy]

Yes I'm prepared. I don't know if there's pretrib. I think it's midtrib, prewrath. A lot of christians are being killed and persecuted already.

 

[Shocker]

Yes I'm prepared. I don't know if there's pretrib. I think it's midtrib, prewrath. A lot of christians are being killed and persecuted already.

If I had to lean in any direction, it would be the same as you..



Great post!

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Do you believe that the entire church will be raptured ? I am talking about the 'true church ' not the professing one. . The reason I am asking is that some people believe that one can lose their salvation by their own choice. I do not believe that one could ever lose salvation , that would require a works system of belief .

I have noticed that many people on this forum believe that not every Christian will be part of the rapture, only the deserving ones. I don't believe that! Isn't that why Jesus died for us in the first place? Welcoming thoughts...

Hi bibletruth,

I believe you are partially correct. Once saved, a believer will not lose his/her salvation. However, there are different rewards for believers and these rewards are based on our works (Rev.22:12). Some believers works will be completely burned up. They will still be saved, yet only as one escaping through the flames (1 Cor. 3:15).

Here's a link to a book that answers your questions. The first review is very helpful in this regard.
http://www.amazon.com/Thy-Way-Daniel-Robert-Hunt/dp/1613465033/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top

Cheers

 

[bibletruth469]

Hi bibletruth, I believe you are partially correct. Once saved, a believer will not lose his/her salvation. However, there are different rewards for believers and these rewards are based on our works (Rev.22:12). Some believers works will be completely burned up. They will still be saved, yet only as one escaping through the flames (1 Cor. 3:15). Here's a link to a book that answers your questions. The first review is very helpful in this regard. http://www.amazon.com/Thy-Way-Daniel-Robert-Hunt/dp/1613465033/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top Cheers

Thanks !

Yes, I agree with you. One can not lose salvation . Rom 8:38-39," For I am persuaded ,that neither death , nor life, nor angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come, nor height , nor depth, nor any other creature , shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Jesus Christ our Lord".

I also agree that believers may be given a reward at the judgement seat of Christ in heaven after the rapture of the church. Not every believer will receive a reward. Yes, that deals with works done while in the body on earth. All those involved will be saved believers in Christ.

The question remains. Will there be a partial rapture ? I believe not and here is why. Look at thess 4 :16-18. It mentions the dead in Christ . These are the people who have died being a believer in Christ during the church age. Did they have time to prepare before they died? I believe not. Look at the thief on the cross. He didn't have any time to prepare . He only asked to be part of the kingdom and he believed .The same is true for the alive in Christ . As long as you are a true believer, you will be part of the rapture .

In other words , I do not think that there is a difference between the dead in Christ and the alive according to salvation . It clearly says ALL believers in Christ will be included in the rapture of the church.

 

[Lollerskates]

Thanks !

Yes, I agree with you. One can not lose salvation . Rom 8:38-39," For I am persuaded ,that neither death , nor life, nor angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come, nor height , nor depth, nor any other creature , shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Jesus Christ our Lord".

I also agree that believers may be given a reward at the judgement seat of Christ in heaven after the rapture of the church. Not every believer will receive a reward. Yes, that deals with works done while in the body on earth. All those involved will be saved believers in Christ.

I would rather sweep the streets of New Jeruselum than be King in hell.

The question remains. Will there be a partial rapture ? I believe not and here is why. Look at thess 4 :16-18. It mentions the dead in Christ . These are the people who have died being a believer in Christ during the church age. Did they have time to prepare before they died? I believe not. Look at the thief on the cross. He didn't have any time to prepare . He only asked to be part of the kingdom and he believed .The same is true for the alive in Christ . As long as you are a true believer, you will be part of the rapture .

In other words , I do not think that there is a difference between the dead in Christ and the alive according to salvation . It clearly says ALL believers in Christ will be included in the rapture of the church.

To me, the "rapture" is the last exact moment Christ comes to save the Church because "there [is a danger that] there will be no flesh left." Paul states the dead, then living will rise at the last trump. That means we will have to endure. Even Daniel 11-12 highlights this, and explains the "wise ones" will do exploits, but they will be taken down by prison, sword, starvation, etc. It is happening right now.

I do not believe there will be a rapture to take away all believers and keep them safe while everyone else has to suffer the wrath of Antichrist. God didn't spare the Exodus Hebrews like that: He gave them proper protection and "immunity" if they followed Him (e.g. Passover.) He didn't wisk the slaves away to Nova Scotia where the plagues/seismic activity/cosmic activity would be minimal. They were protected witnesses of His judgment. That is what I believe will happen in the end. God will save a remnant to be "protected" witnesses. We know there will be people (believers and non-believers alike) that will be here when Christ returns at the end. Paul makes this very clear.

If there is a "rapture," it will be an instant before antichrist starts feeling his "oats," and starts going truly bezerke on his people, and God's people for even the minute form of insubordination.

 

[Bible2]

Messy said in post 43:

I don't know if there's pretrib.

Know that there isn't. For nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible makes clear that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30) the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20) but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

--

The mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16) so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

 

[Bible2]

rollinTHUNDER said in post 45:

Once saved, a believer will not lose his/her salvation.

Note that the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin they might commit (Hebrews 10:26-29, 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus' death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they've ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that.

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance initially saved people will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). There's no assurance they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image and willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). There's no assurance they won't choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in believers, but the healthy fear which all believers are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in believers, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus himself, which all believers must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for initially saved people to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

rollinTHUNDER said in post 45:

Some believers works will be completely burned up. They will still be saved, yet only as one escaping through the flames (1 Cor. 3:15).

1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to only the loss of reward for the work of spiritually building up a church congregation (1 Corinthians 3:8-17) if that work is done in a faulty manner by focusing on the merely-temporal "wood, hay, stubble" (1 Corinthians 3:12) of human, worldly wisdom (1 Corinthians 3:18-20) and the glorying in human leaders of the church (1 Corinthians 3:4,21) instead of focusing on Jesus and the everlasting wisdom of his Word (1 Corinthians 2:2 to 3:23; 1 Peter 1:23-25). 1 Corinthians 3:15 isn't contradicting that if a saved person, whether a church builder or not, wrongly employs his free will to stop doing any good works, to become utterly lazy without repentance, he will in the end lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a,6). He will obtain ultimate salvation only if he patiently continues in good works and obedience to the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24).

 

[Bible2]

bibletruth469 said in post 46:

One can not lose salvation . Rom 8:38-39," For I am persuaded ,that neither death , nor life, nor angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come, nor height , nor depth, nor any other creature , shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Jesus Christ our Lord".

Romans 8:38-39 means nothing outside of saved people's own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 isn't contradicting that saved people themselves can wrongly employ their free will to the ultimate loss of their salvation (e.g. Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 that says "neither death, nor life", it means neither saved people's continued living in itself nor their dying in itself can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live or just for dying. For unless saved people wrongly employ their free will to commit suicide, whether they continue to live or die is outside of their control.

bibletruth469 said in post 46:

I also agree that believers may be given a reward at the judgement seat of Christ in heaven after the rapture of the church.

By "heaven" do you mean the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, note that no scripture requires believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven) to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) to reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

bibletruth469 said in post 46:

The question remains. Will there be a partial rapture ?

No. Nothing in the Bible says any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which is the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). The need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30) at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That's why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

bibletruth469 said in post 46:

The question remains. Will there be a partial rapture ?

Is the mistaken idea of a partial rapture usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

bibletruth469 said in post 46:

Look at thess 4 :16-18. It mentions the dead in Christ . These are the people who have died being a believer in Christ during the church age.

Note that there's no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

 

[Bible2]

Lollerskates said in post 47:

To me, the "rapture" is the last exact moment Christ comes to save the Church because "there [is a danger that] there will be no flesh left."

Regarding the danger of no flesh surviving on the earth, Mark 13:20 can mean all flesh would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

 

[Lollerskates]

Regarding the danger of no flesh surviving on the earth, Mark 13:20 can mean all flesh would die if the Lord hadn't already shortened, as in "he hath shortened" (Mark 13:20b), the number of days of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Mark 13, Matthew 24, and Luke 21. The Lord could have already determined, from the beginning of Creation (cf. Isaiah 46:10), that he will return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). And the Lord will return "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), immediately after its final event, the worldwide destruction during the 7th vial (Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6). So Mark 13:20 can mean if the Lord hadn't shortened the number of days of the tribulation, then all flesh on the earth would die during the 7th vial's aftermath, which could be a nuclear-winter scenario (which the Lord will miraculously prevent at his return) brought on by the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire nuking the cities of the earth at the 7th vial (Revelation 17:16-17a, Revelation 16:19).

I agree, and I have had lengthy conversation with people on here about exactly the mechanism He has chosen to "shorten" the days. I believe that, as I said, God's elect even do not get a pass on living through the tribulation - all of it (or as much as the population can take before the remnant dies off i.e. what we are talking about shortened days.) People will die naturally and unnaturally as it has always been, but there will be no "rapture" to keep the good guys from judgment. God won't judge us because He isn't angry at us. So, He will make us witnesses to His judgment like in Exodus.

But, because He will give the Enemy a certain borrow of power to "do what [he] will quickly," He already knew the Enemy would be angry and use the very limited power he would be given to attack God's people. It says so in Daniel 11:32-35, and Daniel 35 states the time of terror, or even "tribulation" has an appointed time. So once again I understand and I agree that God has appointed a shortening of time even on the power He will give the Enemy to test everyone.

 

[iamlamad]

Thanks !

Yes, I agree with you. One can not lose salvation . Rom 8:38-39," For I am persuaded ,that neither death , nor life, nor angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come, nor height , nor depth, nor any other creature , shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Jesus Christ our Lord".

I also agree that believers may be given a reward at the judgement seat of Christ in heaven after the rapture of the church. Not every believer will receive a reward. Yes, that deals with works done while in the body on earth. All those involved will be saved believers in Christ.

The question remains. Will there be a partial rapture ? I believe not and here is why. Look at thess 4 :16-18. It mentions the dead in Christ . These are the people who have died being a believer in Christ during the church age. Did they have time to prepare before they died? I believe not. Look at the thief on the cross. He didn't have any time to prepare . He only asked to be part of the kingdom and he believed .The same is true for the alive in Christ . As long as you are a true believer, you will be part of the rapture .

In other words , I do not think that there is a difference between the dead in Christ and the alive according to salvation . It clearly says ALL believers in Christ will be included in the rapture of the church.

Did you ever notice in that Romans passage that YOU is left out? Does not anyone's salvation involve their own WILL? Is not the human WILL why untold millions are in hell? They just WOULDN'T!

What if a true believer CHOSE to leave? You really need to study Heb. chapter 6, and see what God says is possible and impossible.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

I would rather sweep the streets of New Jeruselum than be King in hell.



To me, the "rapture" is the last exact moment Christ comes to save the Church because "there [is a danger that] there will be no flesh left." Paul states the dead, then living will rise at the last trump. That means we will have to endure. Even Daniel 11-12 highlights this, and explains the "wise ones" will do exploits, but they will be taken down by prison, sword, starvation, etc. It is happening right now.

I do not believe there will be a rapture to take away all believers and keep them safe while everyone else has to suffer the wrath of Antichrist. God didn't spare the Exodus Hebrews like that: He gave them proper protection and "immunity" if they followed Him (e.g. Passover.) He didn't wisk the slaves away to Nova Scotia where the plagues/seismic activity/cosmic activity would be minimal. They were protected witnesses of His judgment. That is what I believe will happen in the end. God will save a remnant to be "protected" witnesses. We know there will be people (believers and non-believers alike) that will be here when Christ returns at the end. Paul makes this very clear.

If there is a "rapture," it will be an instant before antichrist starts feeling his "oats," and starts going truly bezerke on his people, and God's people for even the minute form of insubordination.

"To me..."

How about "to Paul" who WROTE all we know about the rapture? I recommend you start in 1 thes. 4 and read through chapter 5. In chapter 4 Paul tells us about the rapture, and in chapter 5 gives us the TIMING of the rapture. You cannot find the timing in the gospels, for NOTHING in the gospels is about Paul's rapture.

Paul talks about "sudden destruction." Find out what TRIGGERS that "sudden destruction." Does Paul relate this sudden destruction to the Day of the Lord? I think he does.

Why would you even say "IF" concerning the rapture? Does not 1 Thes. 4 make the rapture TRUTH? If you cannot believe 1 Thes. 4, how can you believe John 3?

LAMAD

 

[bibletruth469]

Did you ever notice in that Romans passage that YOU is left out? Does not anyone's salvation involve their own WILL? Is not the human WILL why untold millions are in hell? They just WOULDN'T! What if a true believer CHOSE to leave? You really need to study Heb. chapter 6, and see what God says is possible and impossible. LAMAD

Anything means anything including yourself in Romans 8:38-39. I know some will disagree but that is ok. I strongly believe that it is Gods will that he should lose none that he has chosen. John 10:28," no one can snatch them out of my hand". Listen... It says NO ONE .. That includes ourselves.

Please also look at the passages that pertain to the sealing of the Holy Spirit . Eph 1:13-14... You were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise..." Eph 4:30, " ... Whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption ".2 cor 1:22, "who hath also sealed us and given the earnest of the spirit in our hearts". These passages show us that we are given the spirit and it is not and can't be taken away.

Another compelling passage : " you are not your own, you were bought with a price" -1 cor 6:19-20 . In other words,WE belong to God! This is the assurance of the believer . Why worry that you accidentally gave up your salvation or gave it back. Does that mean it goes back and forth , losing it and getting it back? I think not!

Ok, let's talk about Hebrews 6:4-6. , a popular verse that is cited often for opposing eternal security. The context of the passage is about Jewish believers keeping the law.( new covenant verses the old). I believe that the ' falling away' part in no way pertains to salvation in that verse, but falling away from fellowship and closeness with the savior because of sin. Not falling away from losing salvation . This is not the context. Also, tasted the heavenly gift or enlightened is not the same thing as given the Holy Spirit of promise.

 

[shturt678s]

Anything means anything including yourself in Romans 8:38-39.

Rom..8:38 Nothing "shall separate us," etc.. In both lists no item such as our own unbelief, obduracy, or apostasy appears. Paul is not teaching irresistibility to or amissibility of grace, and an absolute predestination. As Judas separated himself from God's agape in Christ, so will othes.

I know some will disagree but that is ok. I strongly believe that it is Gods will that he should lose none that he has chosen. John 10:28," no one can snatch them out of my hand". Listen... It says NO ONE .. That includes ourselves.

Remove Jn.15:6 from the Scriptures, then would agree to agree with you.

Please also look at the passages that pertain to the sealing of the Holy Spirit . Eph 1:13-14... You were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise..." Eph 4:30, " ... Whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption ".2 cor 1:22, "who hath also sealed us and given the earnest of the spirit in our hearts". These passages show us that we are given the spirit and it is not and can't be taken away.

Another compelling passage : " you are not your own, you were bought with a price" -1 cor 6:19-20 . In other words,WE belong to God! This is the assurance of the believer . Why worry that you accidentally gave up your salvation or gave it back. Does that mean it goes back and forth , losing it and getting it back? I think not!

Ok, let's talk about Hebrews 6:4-6. , a popular verse that is cited often for opposing eternal security. The context of the passage is about Jewish believers keeping the law.( new covenant verses the old). I believe that the ' falling away' part in no way pertains to salvation in that verse, but falling away from fellowship and closeness with the savior because of sin. Not falling away from losing salvation . This is not the context. Also, tasted the heavenly gift or enlightened is not the same thing as given the Holy Spirit of promise.

You really care and thank you, ie, agreeing to disagree,

Old Jack that appreciates you and your words

 

[Lollerskates]

"To me..."

How about "to Paul" who WROTE all we know about the rapture? I recommend you start in 1 thes. 4 and read through chapter 5. In chapter 4 Paul tells us about the rapture, and in chapter 5 gives us the TIMING of the rapture. You cannot find the timing in the gospels, for NOTHING in the gospels is about Paul's rapture.

I said "to me" to be polite - as in not to impose. But, Paul did not say anything about a rapture. The word isn't in the Greek or English in the bible. 1 Thes 4 - even if it is talking about a "catching away" of any sort, it is at the last trump. Not the first, not after 3.5 trumps. The last trump - when it all ends anyway. The only rapture would be "post-tribulation," and really that goes against Daniel 9, 11, and 12. The "tribulation" is not a set thing in days and numbers necessarily. The Church has been in travail since Christ's resurrection. When certain events happen, it will mark things like the 1290 days or 1335 days of greater tribulation. And, in Daniel (and even Revelation) it makes it clear that there will be righteous people here - many of them - because the Enemy is going to war with them, and overcome most of them. So much so, that God will shorten the days of tribulation because nothing would be left.

When Christ cuts in Revelation 22:7 and says, "Behold I come quickly..." it is a reference to how no one will know the exact moment Christ will summon His saints in the end. We should know the day, or at least season, because there is plenty of evidence to let us know when He will be back (there are three holy days devoted the general "when" of Christ's return.

Paul talks about "sudden destruction." Find out what TRIGGERS that "sudden destruction." Does Paul relate this sudden destruction to the Day of the Lord? I think he does.

Why would you even say "IF" concerning the rapture? Does not 1 Thes. 4 make the rapture TRUTH? If you cannot believe 1 Thes. 4, how can you believe John 3?

LAMAD

No, the rapture is not truth. Paul is talking about the resurrection of the saints at the last trump - the end. That is why he says the dead will rise first, then the living. He is saying the obvious - common sense. Of course dead will be resurrected first because they are already dead. Still, all this happens instantaneously. No where does Paul say that Christ will have a third advent. Do you think Christ will come back to gather the "good" Church, then leave, let the end of the world as we know it happen, then come back a third time and set up Jeruselum? Did Christ say that even, or did He specifically talk about another advent at the end of the world? (Think Matthew 24.) His disciples did not say, "Tell us of your comings (plural)..."

Also, who is raptured? According to Paul, it is the saints. How, then, would it be just for Christ to remove the saints from the world, let all the other non-believer potentials go through the worst tyranny by a spiritual entity emboding a human body (Antichrist,) watch their spirits break and submit to this beast, then come back and stamp them out and set up the Kingdom?

If not all the saints are raptured, then why do some stay behind? What is the criteria for being raptured? Are you more spiritual for getting raptured, or for being left behind to witness the end?

See, the rapture has some nefarious origins - everything from Sumerian mythology, to the famous Barbara McDonald demonic dream, to occultism. What better way to destroy faith than to build a culture that expects something so iconic as the rapture so badly, and it is all based on a lie and/or interpretation gone wrong. When it doesn't happen, imagine the utter disappointment. "Why wasn't I raptured? Was anyone else? Did it even happen? etc." There is a lot riding on this rapture being real for non-believers, because of...several reasons.


You should know God's ways. He has never been the one to scoop any of His children out of dangerous situations. That means lost homework of the end of the world. He doesn't work like that. What He will do is give you a lot of tools that will surprise even you. And, you overcome the end of the world and realize with God's help it was simply "the end of the world as I knew it." It was like that in Egypt, it was like that with Noah, and it will be like that during the greater tribulation period. He is raising little gods, His children to be great - maybe even have solar systems as our playground some tens of thousands of years after resurrection. If we are going to be great do you think we will make use of our talents and God's attributes by crying to him every time a planet is in danger of being hit by a comet in your solar system?

It would be better to err on the side of caution, and not believe the rapture is real. There is too much contrary biblical, circumstantial, anecdotal and hostorical evidence. And, God wouldn't do that - not His style. We will have to go through these tribulations all the way even if it is to be mere witnesses of the end. (I bet there are plenty of matriarchs and patriarchs that would love to be a witness in the end - of course with hindsight.)

 

[Lollerskates]

"To me..."

How about "to Paul" who WROTE all we know about the rapture? I recommend you start in 1 thes. 4 and read through chapter 5. In chapter 4 Paul tells us about the rapture, and in chapter 5 gives us the TIMING of the rapture. You cannot find the timing in the gospels, for NOTHING in the gospels is about Paul's rapture.

I said "to me" to be polite - as in not to impose. But, Paul did not say anything about a rapture. The word isn't in the Greek or English in the bible. 1 Thes 4 - even if it is talking about a "catching away" of any sort, it is at the last trump. Not the first, not after 3.5 trumps. The last trump - when it all ends anyway. The only rapture would be "post-tribulation," and really that goes against Daniel 9, 11, and 12. The "tribulation" is not a set thing in days and numbers necessarily. The Church has been in travail since Christ's resurrection. When certain events happen, it will mark things like the 1290 days or 1335 days of greater tribulation. And, in Daniel (and even Revelation) it makes it clear that there will be righteous people here - many of them - because the Enemy is going to war with them, and overcome most of them. So much so, that God will shorten the days of tribulation because nothing would be left.

When Christ cuts in Revelation 22:7 and says, "Behold I come quickly..." it is a reference to how no one will know the exact moment Christ will summon His saints in the end. We should know the day, or at least season, because there is plenty of evidence to let us know when He will be back (there are three holy days devoted the general "when" of Christ's return.

Paul talks about "sudden destruction." Find out what TRIGGERS that "sudden destruction." Does Paul relate this sudden destruction to the Day of the Lord? I think he does.

Why would you even say "IF" concerning the rapture? Does not 1 Thes. 4 make the rapture TRUTH? If you cannot believe 1 Thes. 4, how can you believe John 3?

LAMAD

No, the rapture is not truth. Paul is talking about the resurrection of the saints at the last trump - the end. That is why he says the dead will rise first, then the living. He is saying the obvious - common sense. Of course dead will be resurrected first because they are already dead. Still, all this happens instantaneously. No where does Paul say that Christ will have a third advent. Do you think Christ will come back to gather the "good" Church, then leave, let the end of the world as we know it happen, then come back a third time and set up Jeruselum? Did Christ say that even, or did He specifically talk about another advent at the end of the world? (Think Matthew 24.) His disciples did not say, "Tell us of your comings (plural)..."

Also, who is raptured? According to Paul, it is the saints. How, then, would it be just for Christ to remove the saints from the world, let all the other non-believer potentials go through the worst tyranny by a spiritual entity emboding a human body (Antichrist,) watch their spirits break and submit to this beast, then come back and stamp them out and set up the Kingdom?

If not all the saints are raptured, then why do some stay behind? What is the criteria for being raptured? Are you more spiritual for getting raptured, or for being left behind to witness the end?

See, the rapture has some nefarious origins - everything from Sumerian mythology, to the famous Barbara McDonald demonic dream, to occultism. What better way to destroy faith than to build a culture that expects something so iconic as the rapture so badly, and it is all based on a lie and/or interpretation gone wrong. When it doesn't happen, imagine the utter disappointment. "Why wasn't I raptured? Was anyone else? Did it even happen? etc." There is a lot riding on this rapture being real for non-believers, because of...several reasons.


You should know God's ways. He has never been the one to scoop any of His children out of dangerous situations. That means lost homework of the end of the world. He doesn't work like that. What He will do is give you a lot of tools that will surprise even you. And, you overcome the end of the world and realize with God's help it was simply "the end of the world as I knew it." It was like that in Egypt, it was like that with Noah, and it will be like that during the greater tribulation period. He is raising little gods, His children to be great - maybe even have solar systems as our playground some tens of thousands of years after resurrection. If we are going to be great do you think we will make use of our talents and God's attributes by crying to him every time a planet is in danger of being hit by a comet in your solar system?

It would be better to err on the side of caution, and not believe the rapture is real. There is too much contrary biblical, circumstantial, anecdotal and hostorical evidence. And, God wouldn't do that - not His style. We will have to go through these tribulations all the way even if it is to be mere witnesses of the end. (I bet there are plenty of matriarchs and patriarchs that would love to be a witness in the end - of course with hindsight.)

 

[iamlamad]

I said "to me" to be polite - as in not to impose. But, Paul did not say anything about a rapture. The word isn't in the Greek or English in the bible.

It is not in the English bible, but it is certainly in the Latin bible, and it is where we get the English word, Rapture.

Latin Vulgate
4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Your first argument is not an argument at all. This word means what we all mean when we think of the rapture (Perhaps all but you): it means a catching up.

1 Thes 4 - even if it is talking about a "catching away" of any sort, it is at the last trump. Not the first, not after 3.5 trumps. The last trump - when it all ends anyway.

Do you have any idea what SERIES of trumpets Paul was talking about? We can know without any doubt at all, that he was NOT talking about the trumpet series in the book of Revelation. Angels sound those trumpets, while JESUS sounds the trumpet at the rapture. Jewish believers know that at the feast of trumpets, the last long trumpet blast that ENDs the feast has long been know as "the last trump." Many Christians believe it is THIS "last trump" that Paul was referring to.

Do you imagine that God will send out angels to gather up all trumpets after Revelation's 7th trumpet, so forever more there can be no more trumpet blasts? That is silly to even suggest! Of course there will other trumpet blasts, but NO MORE OF THAT SERIES: the 7th is the last of that series. But the series in Revelation has NOTHING to do with Paul's rapture. The book of Revelation was not even written when Paul wrote 1 Thes. Paul knew NOTHING of the 7 trumpets of Revelation.

Next, OF COURSE Paul was talking about a catching away.

Young's Literal Translation
4:17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

Paul definitely wrote of a catching up or catching away of the Bride. Why would you even doubt such clear words?


Next, you are even wrong about the 7th trumpet. That sounds at the exact MIDPOINT of the week, not at the end. Did you not notice that right after the 7th trumpet sounds, those living in Judea FLEE, just as Jesus told them too? (Rev. 12:6) Just so you know, the 70th week ENDS with the 7th vial.

The only rapture would be "post-tribulation," and really that goes against Daniel 9, 11, and 12. The "tribulation" is not a set thing in days and numbers necessarily. The Church has been in travail since Christ's resurrection.

Yes and no. I agree, the church has been in tribulation since the beginning. However, the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of are still in the future and will certainly take place in the last half of the future 70th week. In Revelation those days of GT would be Rev. 14 through Rev. 15, and perhaps through some of the vials. By the time of the 7th vial, those day will be over: God will have SHORTENED those days.

However, Paul's rapture comes before the 70th week and Day of the Lord even begins. Note that Paul wrote of the "sudden destruction," and gave a real good hint that it was related to the Day of the Lord. Then he wrote that God would NOT set an appointment with His wrath for His bride. If you study the Day of the Lord, you will find it BEGINS AT the 7th seal and WITH the first trumpet judgment. Did you notice that the great crowd seen in heaven in chapter 7 was seen there BEFORE the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week? That great crowd IS the raptured Bride of Christ.
"The 70th week" is written in stone (God's word) and will certainly come to pass. The same goes for the days of "great tribulation."

When certain events happen, it will mark things like the 1290 days or 1335 days of greater tribulation.

Where does the count BEGIN for those numbers? Many believe the abomination event will be the start of the count. Since Jesus does NOT return at the 7th vial that ends the week and ends the 42 months and 1260 days count - perhaps He will come on the 1290th day. Since John did not say, we cannot know.

And, in Daniel (and even Revelation) it makes it clear that there will be righteous people here - many of them - because the Enemy is going to war with them, and overcome most of them. So much so, that God will shorten the days of tribulation because nothing would be left.

This is no proof that the Bride of Christ was not taken out before the week. MILLIONS will realize their mistake and turn to God after the rapture....not to mention the millions of lukewarm believers left behind.

When Christ cuts in Revelation 22:7 and says, "Behold I come quickly..." it is a reference to how no one will know the exact moment Christ will summon His saints in the end. We should know the day, or at least season, because there is plenty of evidence to let us know when He will be back (there are three holy days devoted the general "when" of Christ's return.

For sure, NO ONE will know the day nor the hour that Jesus will come pretrib FOR His saints, or posttrib WITH His saints: either time will be a mystery.

No, the rapture is not truth. Paul is talking about the resurrection of the saints at the last trump - the end.

You can be wrong if you want to be. OF COURSE the rapture is truth, because Paul WROTE that the bride would be "caught up."

Perhaps you mean to say, "the pretrib rapture is not truth." Even if this is what you meant, you would STILL be wrong; for it is exactly what Paul wrote. However, I will give you this much, Paul DID combine the rapture of the live believers with the resurrection of those who have died in Christ.

That is why he says the dead will rise first, then the living. He is saying the obvious - common sense. Of course dead will be resurrected first because they are already dead. Still, all this happens instantaneously. No where does Paul say that Christ will have a third advent.

Don't be so sure of yourself! Paul makes it clear that HIS coming of Christ FOR the church will be pretrib and the 2nd coming. But John shows us Christ coming after the 70th week and after the wedding so that will be His 3rd coming. It is there for any or all to read and believe.

Do you think Christ will come back to gather the "good" Church, then leave, let the end of the world as we know it happen, then come back a third time and set up Jeruselum? Did Christ say that even, or did He specifically talk about another advent at the end of the world? (Think Matthew 24.) His disciples did not say, "Tell us of your comings (plural)..."

Jesus will come PRETRIB FOR His bride.....for those who are WATCHING for His coming. For those living in sin, He is not coming for them. They are not watching and don't WANT Him to come just yet. For those that are lukewarm, He is not coming for them either. Sadly this makes up a LOT of those in the world that do believe in Him.

Also, who is raptured? According to Paul, it is the saints. How, then, would it be just for Christ to remove the saints from the world, let all the other non-believer potentials go through the worst tyranny by a spiritual entity emboding a human body (Antichrist,) watch their spirits break and submit to this beast, then come back and stamp them out and set up the Kingdom?

Always remember, it is God's will that ALL His bride be ready. He knows He will pour out His wrath soon after, and He wants NONE of His bride to be left behind. Since untold millions WILL BE left behind, it is THEIR CHOICE, not HIS. If you did not understand, today there are MANY people sitting on the fence, so to speak. God is going to FORCE ALL to make a decision one way or another: take the mark and be doomed, or refuse the mark and lose their head. Losing their head will be the ONLY way into heaven after the pretrib rapture, UNLESS one is part of the 144,000. Did you forget that it was God that brought the great flood?

If not all the saints are raptured, then why do some stay behind? What is the criteria for being raptured? Are you more spiritual for getting raptured, or for being left behind to witness the end?

I think WATCHING for and WANTING His coming is a good way to think of it.
If a believer is trapped in sin, they will not WANT Him to come. If a believer loves the world, they will not want Him to come.

See, the rapture has some nefarious origins - everything from Sumerian mythology, to the famous Barbara McDonald demonic dream, to occultism. What better way to destroy faith than to build a culture that expects something so iconic as the rapture so badly, and it is all based on a lie and/or interpretation gone wrong. When it doesn't happen, imagine the utter disappointment. "Why wasn't I raptured? Was anyone else? Did it even happen? etc." There is a lot riding on this rapture being real for non-believers, because of...several reasons.

Could you say that Martin Luther BEGAN the truth of salvation by faith alone? Certainly NOT! Paul began that truth by writing it. But that truth was LOST for centuries. Barbara did NOT originate the doctrine of the rapture, PAUL DID. And many of the first generation believed it. WE have books written in the first and second century that prove this.

Next, the rapture is CERTAINLY not based on a lie or on any kind of faulty exegesis: Paul wrote of it very plainly. And he wrote that HIS rapture would come at a time when people are saying peace and safety and would come SUDDENLY, with no warning, and immediately following would come SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. This sudden destruction will be a great earthquake (as seen at the 6th seal) caused by the dead in Christ rising. Immediately following will be the SIGNS for the start of the Day of the Lord. John and Paul are in perfect agreement. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.

Don't EVER worry about God's word NOT happening! He CANNOT lie! Paul wrote it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and it will CERTAINLY come to pass. You can believe it - it is the written word of God who CANNOT lie!

You should know God's ways. He has never been the one to scoop any of His children out of dangerous situations. That means lost homework of the end of the world. He doesn't work like that.

You should know, the rapture is a ONE TIME event. It has never been done before, except one on one, as in Enoch and Elijah. And again, never again will God destroy the planet. He destroyed it with water and DID allow 8 to escape. He will destroy it again with fire, and will allow millions to escape. In fact, God even USED the word ESCAPE in Luke 21.

What He will do is give you a lot of tools that will surprise even you. And, you overcome the end of the world and realize with God's help it was simply "the end of the world as I knew it." It was like that in Egypt, it was like that with Noah, and it will be like that during the greater tribulation period. He is raising little gods, His children to be great - maybe even have solar systems as our playground some tens of thousands of years after resurrection. If we are going to be great do you think we will make use of our talents and God's attributes by crying to him every time a planet is in danger of being hit by a comet in your solar system?

It would be better to err on the side of caution, and not believe the rapture is real. There is too much contrary biblical, circumstantial, anecdotal and hostorical evidence. And, God wouldn't do that - not His style. We will have to go through these tribulations all the way even if it is to be mere witnesses of the end. (I bet there are plenty of matriarchs and patriarchs that would love to be a witness in the end - of course with hindsight.)

You forget what God said: God gave authority to the beast to OVERCOME. Don't even THINK Christians will live through this time. That would be the opposite of being OVERCOME. Again, God CANNOT lie. Those that are left behind WILL either lose their head or take the mark. Do you understand this is the END OF THE WORLD as we have known it? God will DESTROY the world and the sinners in the world. There will be NO SINNERS enter the millennial kingdom of Christ.

So what to do NOW? Make absolutely SURE you are not "lukewarm!" WATCH for His coming and WANT His coming. Finally, BELIEVE what Paul wrote.

LAMAD

 

[Lollerskates]

It is not in the English bible, but it is certainly in the Latin bible, and it is where we get the English word, Rapture.

Latin Vulgate
4:17 deinde nos qui vivimus qui relinquimur simul rapiemur cum illis in nubibus obviam Domino in aera et sic semper cum Domino erimus

Your first argument is not an argument at all. This word means what we all mean when we think of the rapture (Perhaps all but you): it means a catching up.



Do you have any idea what SERIES of trumpets Paul was talking about? We can know without any doubt at all, that he was NOT talking about the trumpet series in the book of Revelation. Angels sound those trumpets, while JESUS sounds the trumpet at the rapture. Jewish believers know that at the feast of trumpets, the last long trumpet blast that ENDs the feast has long been know as "the last trump." Many Christians believe it is THIS "last trump" that Paul was referring to.

Do you imagine that God will send out angels to gather up all trumpets after Revelation's 7th trumpet, so forever more there can be no more trumpet blasts? That is silly to even suggest! Of course there will other trumpet blasts, but NO MORE OF THAT SERIES: the 7th is the last of that series. But the series in Revelation has NOTHING to do with Paul's rapture. The book of Revelation was not even written when Paul wrote 1 Thes. Paul knew NOTHING of the 7 trumpets of Revelation.

Next, OF COURSE Paul was talking about a catching away.

Young's Literal Translation
4:17 then we who are living, who are remaining over, together with them shall be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in air, and so always with the Lord we shall be;

Paul definitely wrote of a catching up or catching away of the Bride. Why would you even doubt such clear words?


Next, you are even wrong about the 7th trumpet. That sounds at the exact MIDPOINT of the week, not at the end. Did you not notice that right after the 7th trumpet sounds, those living in Judea FLEE, just as Jesus told them too? (Rev. 12:6) Just so you know, the 70th week ENDS with the 7th vial.



Yes and no. I agree, the church has been in tribulation since the beginning. However, the days of great tribulation that Jesus spoke of are still in the future and will certainly take place in the last half of the future 70th week. In Revelation those days of GT would be Rev. 14 through Rev. 15, and perhaps through some of the vials. By the time of the 7th vial, those day will be over: God will have SHORTENED those days.

However, Paul's rapture comes before the 70th week and Day of the Lord even begins. Note that Paul wrote of the "sudden destruction," and gave a real good hint that it was related to the Day of the Lord. Then he wrote that God would NOT set an appointment with His wrath for His bride. If you study the Day of the Lord, you will find it BEGINS AT the 7th seal and WITH the first trumpet judgment. Did you notice that the great crowd seen in heaven in chapter 7 was seen there BEFORE the 7th seal officially opens the 70th week? That great crowd IS the raptured Bride of Christ.
"The 70th week" is written in stone (God's word) and will certainly come to pass. The same goes for the days of "great tribulation."




Where does the count BEGIN for those numbers? Many believe the abomination event will be the start of the count. Since Jesus does NOT return at the 7th vial that ends the week and ends the 42 months and 1260 days count - perhaps He will come on the 1290th day. Since John did not say, we cannot know.


This is no proof that the Bride of Christ was not taken out before the week. MILLIONS will realize their mistake and turn to God after the rapture....not to mention the millions of lukewarm believers left behind.



For sure, NO ONE will know the day nor the hour that Jesus will come pretrib FOR His saints, or posttrib WITH His saints: either time will be a mystery.



You can be wrong if you want to be. OF COURSE the rapture is truth, because Paul WROTE that the bride would be "caught up."

Perhaps you mean to say, "the pretrib rapture is not truth." Even if this is what you meant, you would STILL be wrong; for it is exactly what Paul wrote. However, I will give you this much, Paul DID combine the rapture of the live believers with the resurrection of those who have died in Christ.



Don't be so sure of yourself! Paul makes it clear that HIS coming of Christ FOR the church will be pretrib and the 2nd coming. But John shows us Christ coming after the 70th week and after the wedding so that will be His 3rd coming. It is there for any or all to read and believe.



Jesus will come PRETRIB FOR His bride.....for those who are WATCHING for His coming. For those living in sin, He is not coming for them. They are not watching and don't WANT Him to come just yet. For those that are lukewarm, He is not coming for them either. Sadly this makes up a LOT of those in the world that do believe in Him.



Always remember, it is God's will that ALL His bride be ready. He knows He will pour out His wrath soon after, and He wants NONE of His bride to be left behind. Since untold millions WILL BE left behind, it is THEIR CHOICE, not HIS. If you did not understand, today there are MANY people sitting on the fence, so to speak. God is going to FORCE ALL to make a decision one way or another: take the mark and be doomed, or refuse the mark and lose their head. Losing their head will be the ONLY way into heaven after the pretrib rapture, UNLESS one is part of the 144,000. Did you forget that it was God that brought the great flood?



I think WATCHING for and WANTING His coming is a good way to think of it.
If a believer is trapped in sin, they will not WANT Him to come. If a believer loves the world, they will not want Him to come.



Could you say that Martin Luther BEGAN the truth of salvation by faith alone? Certainly NOT! Paul began that truth by writing it. But that truth was LOST for centuries. Barbara did NOT originate the doctrine of the rapture, PAUL DID. And many of the first generation believed it. WE have books written in the first and second century that prove this.

Next, the rapture is CERTAINLY not based on a lie or on any kind of faulty exegesis: Paul wrote of it very plainly. And he wrote that HIS rapture would come at a time when people are saying peace and safety and would come SUDDENLY, with no warning, and immediately following would come SUDDEN DESTRUCTION. This sudden destruction will be a great earthquake (as seen at the 6th seal) caused by the dead in Christ rising. Immediately following will be the SIGNS for the start of the Day of the Lord. John and Paul are in perfect agreement. Then John SAW the raptured church in heaven shortly after the 6th seal.

Don't EVER worry about God's word NOT happening! He CANNOT lie! Paul wrote it by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and it will CERTAINLY come to pass. You can believe it - it is the written word of God who CANNOT lie!



You should know, the rapture is a ONE TIME event. It has never been done before, except one on one, as in Enoch and Elijah. And again, never again will God destroy the planet. He destroyed it with water and DID allow 8 to escape. He will destroy it again with fire, and will allow millions to escape. In fact, God even USED the word ESCAPE in Luke 21.



You forget what God said: God gave authority to the beast to OVERCOME. Don't even THINK Christians will live through this time. That would be the opposite of being OVERCOME. Again, God CANNOT lie. Those that are left behind WILL either lose their head or take the mark. Do you understand this is the END OF THE WORLD as we have known it? God will DESTROY the world and the sinners in the world. There will be NO SINNERS enter the millennial kingdom of Christ.

So what to do NOW? Make absolutely SURE you are not "lukewarm!" WATCH for His coming and WANT His coming. Finally, BELIEVE what Paul wrote.

LAMAD

I will be watching, but I also know he isn't coming back three times. He saved us already. We are appointed to go through trial and tribulation, but we will be "holpen with a little help" to help us. Daniel 11 is very clear that the "wise ones" will be tried by fire, prison, sword, and sickness. Christians are going to die, and endure a hard trial. They are doing that now - people in the world today and in history have been beheaded, crucified, poisoned, tortured, burned, etc. because they are preaching the word of God. What makes you think God will come and save us from those things (or worse) when Christ Himself said that, "...whosoever kills you will think that he is doing God's service, and they will do it because they don't know the Father or Me." He was talking to the disciples AND us. As I said, people are suffering horrible fates for their faith.

If Christ comes back to rapture saints, I will personally tell you and Him I was wrong. But, I don't plan on thinking about what I will say, as I feel that day will not exist. Now, I will prepare for being a witness to the possible end, and hopefully being resurrected when Christ comes back.

By the way, you implied saying Christians have to go through the tribulation was calling God a liar. Who, then, are those souls that are still alive at the end in Revelation? The ones that actually witness Christ come back? The 144,000 people theory has been debunked depending on who you talk to, even so much to an etymological standpoint showing the number and the "two" for "two witnesses" was added, or mistranslated as specific multiples (when they just meant groups.) Whether or not there are literally 144,000 people their description nontheless is that they are virgins - either spiritually (no other gods ever but God,) or physically (no sex) or both. Are you saying that only virgins can even qualify to go to heaven after the rapture (i.e. no one with kids can go?) What about possible converts after the "rapture," they won't be able to go to heaven because they aren't virgins? So, the point is that there will still be some people left to take in the second coming even after Christ raptures the Church, so that is what Paul is talking about - the dead first, then the living will rise at the last trump. Christ is not coming back three times, nor is he going to baby us when Antichrist shows up. He will allow some of us to be witnesses to God's judgment, and other attributes, as well as possibly witnessing the live destruction of the Enemy and Christ's return - His second coming. He is not coming back three times. No where does it say this. If you think I am wrong I couldn't be happier.


Nice talking...