If there is no Pre-Trib Rapture, are you prepared to go through the Tribulation???

SAAN

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Matthew 24:29-31
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



I know many are so fixed on being gone due to a pre-trib rapture, but have most stopped and given a thought on, what if they are wrong and we are meant to go through the tribulation?

God protected his people from the plagues in Egypt, so do you think he cant do the same during the tribulation as well?

Would you actually be willing to be beheaded for your faith in Christ?

Would you take the Mark of the Beast, if it stopped your children and family of dying from starvation in front of your own eyes?


Im not saying there wont be a pre-trib and a post-trib rapture is a must, but scriptures when read in context point to Jesus coming back after the tribulation for his followers, so if we are to go through the Great Tribulation are you prepared???
 
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A good question. We should all be humble enough to allow for the possibility that our views might be wrong. (In fact, I would tend to have a low opinion of people who have never changed their views from what their first opinions were, or would be unwilling to ever change them again).

In the case of pre-tribbers, this would mean that they should at least be open to the possibility that they may enter into the great tribulation.

I suppose post-tribbers should be open to the possibility that they will be raptured before the tribulation -- but in their case, the consequences of being wrong seem less severe.
 
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Biblewriter

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The OP contains several erroneous basic presumptions.

The first of these is that pre-tribbers believe in the pre-tribulation rapture because they want to escape going through the time of the Antichrist.

This is not why we believe in the pre-tribulation rapture. we believe in it because we see it in the scriptures.

Now, as to the question, what if we are wrong?

If we find ourselves in the presence of the Antichrist, we will know that we have mis-interpreted the prophetic scriptures. This should cause us to lose confidence in our ability to interpret scripture, or in the teachers we trusted. But if out hearts are right with God, it will have zero affect on our confidence in the Lord.

But there is an even greater error in the basic presumption of the OP. That is that believers in a post-tribulation rapture are more prepared to face such trials. The truth is that we have zero reason to think we will not have to fact such trials, whether the antichrist is present or not. We see the basic freedoms we have taken for granted quickly eroding before out very eyes. The freedoms we have enjoyed are unique in history, and in even the present world. So it should surprise no one of we lose them.

We need to remember that self confidence is a great trap. The first Apostle to tell the Lord He would follow Him to death was the first one to deny Him. But all the rest were also self-confident, and all the rest forsook Him and fled.

So all of us, regardless of what we believe, need to remember that we cannot be trusted. When the test comes, every one of us will most certainly fall unless we are in communion with the Holy Ghost. And every one who is in communion with Him will surely stand the test.
 
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TPeterY

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Biblewriter in post #3:
"The first of these is that pre-tribbers believe in the pre-tribulation rapture because they want to escape going through the time of the Antichrist."

I've yet to see any other reason.

*

*

You have to understand what a tribulation is all about, not just The Tribulation. Some Christians go through tribulation in life being trained by God to be prepared for a millennial reign on earth with Christ.

The rapture is for those that's been trained, passed and prepare for the assignment ahead. Those left behind have not passed their tests and need extended training. They will either pass or fail during The Great Tribulation. Jesus will divide the two after his return.

The escape is secondary and not the main reason for a Pre-Trib rapture.

There is also the reasons to equip the Bride of Christ to be able to reign in the Millennium. That will be given to those during the Bema Seat. For example, you can't live through the entire Millennium without The Crown of Life and a glorified body.
 
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SAAN

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A good question. We should all be humble enough to allow for the possibility that our views might be wrong. (In fact, I would tend to have a low opinion of people who have never changed their views from what their first opinions were, or would be unwilling to ever change them again).

In the case of pre-tribbers, this would mean that they should at least be open to the possibility that they may enter into the great tribulation.

I suppose post-tribbers should be open to the possibility that they will be raptured before the tribulation -- but in their case, the consequences of being wrong seem less severe.

I agree, I wish more pre-tribbers would just have an open mind to be other side of the argument and just think, if im wrong would I be ready to go through those trials.

I was brought up pre-trib and still think it might be true somewhat since it would make no sense for Christians to remain and go through all that and that Christians would try to stop the antichrist from doing what the bible says he will do. But I am now also prepared to endure until the end, like the bible says as well also, in case Jesus doesnt take us until the tribulation is over.

Like you said , if a Post-trib is wrong, worse case is, they are gone in the pre-trib rapture. If a Pre-trib is wrong, they might question why are they still here, why God would put them through this, or straight up walk away from God thinking the scriptures are a lie since they have been taught pre-trib all their lives.
 
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TPeterY

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I was brought up pre-trib and still think it might be true somewhat since it would make no sense for Christians to remain and go through all that and that Christians would try to stop the antichrist from doing what the bible says he will do. But I am now also prepared to endure until the end, like the bible says as well also, in case Jesus doesnt take us until the tribulation is over.

Here's your reason why. It's all in Revelation chapters 2 & 3 about The 7 Churches. Every Christian that ever live (lived) falls under one or more of those 7. Christians from 5 of those Churches are not ready and will not be caught up during the rapture. Only The Smyrna (persecuted) Church and The Philadelphia (Faithful) Church have passed their testing, fully trained and ready to reign in the Millennium with Christ.

So not all Christians will be caught up to meet Jesus. They will be allowed to stay for further conditioning and preparation during The Great Tribulation.



Revelation 2:1-29
New King James Version (NKJV)
The Loveless Church

2 “To the angel of the church of Ephesus write,

‘These things says He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands: 2 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; 3 and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. 4 Nevertheless I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent and do the first works, or else I will come to you quickly and remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. 6 But this you have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’

The Persecuted Church

8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write,

‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’


The Compromising Church

12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write,

‘These things says He who has the sharp two-edged sword: 13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality. 15 Thus you also have those who hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.[a] 16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

17 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’

The Corrupt Church

18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write,

‘These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet like fine brass: 19 “I know your works, love, service, faith, and your patience; and as for your works, the last are more than the first. 20 Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow[c] that woman[d] Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce[e] My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent.[f] 22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their[g] deeds. 23 I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.

24 “Now to you I say, and[h] to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. 25 But hold fast what you have till I come. 26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—

27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’[j]—
as I also have received from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star.

29 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

Revelation 3:1-22
New King James Version (NKJV)

The Dead Church

3 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God.[a] 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

6 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

The Faithful Church

7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,

‘These things says He who is holy, He who is true, “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”:[c] 8 “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it;[d] for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of TRIAL which shall come upon the whole world, to TEST those who dwell on the earth. 11 Behold,[e] I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. 12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.

13 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’

The Lukewarm Church

14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,

‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 17 Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked— 18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.

22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”


Many people accept Jesus as Lord and Savior to save their souls from The Great White Throne Judgement from God, but they don't realize there's a Judgement Seat of Christ, and are not preparing themselves for His return.

"Preparing to survive through The Great Tribulation is the last thing you'll want to do." It's because those people are preparing themselves to survive by their own rules, and not follow God's (as to repent and follow God) and allow Him to test (train) and prepare you for the millennium. But why wait till then, why not repent now and really get to know Him?

Best to spend time with God now, get into a personal and intimate relationship with Him. Follow Jesus' lead and ask Him to help you pass your hours of testing before The Tribulation begins. (otherwise you'll be tested later during The Great tribulation). And preach the gospel while there's still time.

Once you accomplish this, you won't even worry about A Great Tribulation. God is on your side.

One last thing, best way to understand end-time prophecy is to let the Holy Spirit guide you to the right information. but you'll need to be in a relationship with Father God first "and" than diligently seek the truth. Then it'll come.

Take this from a former Post-Tribulation believer. I was at 90% certain it was post until I decided to stop learning eschatology on my own. Now I'm 110% certain it's Pre because The Bride of Christ is ready and no more training is needed.
 
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Dale

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TPeterY in post #5:
"For example, you can't live through the entire Millennium without The Crown of Life and a glorified body."

I'm not sure anyone lives through the entire Millennium.
The "glorified body" is something else I can't find in my Bible.

*

*
 
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TPeterY

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TPeterY in post #5:
"For example, you can't live through the entire Millennium without The Crown of Life and a glorified body."

I'm not sure anyone lives through the entire Millennium.
The "glorified body" is something else I can't find in my Bible.

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I'm too lazy to type up a bunch of information about the Glorified Body so I just googled glorified body and found a bunch of links. Two below that can explain it with bible verses.

BIBLE VERSES ABOUT GLORIFIED BODIES

The Rapture and Our Glorified Body

After Jesus resurrected, He later returned and visited His disciples in His new Glorified Body.

Actually I'll give you one in case no one believes in a rapture.

1 Thessalonians 4:17
New King James Version (NKJV)
17) Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 
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BrotherRickG

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This is a true statement, the Bible has no wordage for a "Rapture". It does however have the true Biblical term of "The Harvest" which is Revelation 14:14. That is when the Lord will protect His children from the cleansing of the earth. :clap:
 
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Biblewriter in post #3:
"The first of these is that pre-tribbers believe in the pre-tribulation rapture because they want to escape going through the time of the Antichrist."

I've yet to see any other reason.

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Then you have never read anything written by a serious Bible scholar who is a dispensationalist.

The main reason for the pre-tribulation rapture is that the tribulation period is not even about the church. It is God's pre-defined plan for bringing the rebellious nation of Israel to repentance. About a third of the Old Testament is devoted to the details of the process God will use to accomplish this goal, and an absolute pronouncement that this will accomplish its purpose.

These include the clear statements that "The Land of Israel" with "the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys," will again be "inhabited" by absolutely all of "the house of Israel," and that all the families remaining in the land will repent with bitter weeping, and that they will all know the Lord, from the least to the greatest. This is very plainly not the church.
 
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Kingdom_Come

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Now, as to the question, what if we are wrong?

If we find ourselves in the presence of the Antichrist, we will know that we have mis-interpreted the prophetic scriptures. This should cause us to lose confidence in our ability to interpret scripture, or in the teachers we trusted. But if out hearts are right with God, it will have zero affect on our confidence in the Lord.

But there is an even greater error in the basic presumption of the OP. That is that believers in a post-tribulation rapture are more prepared to face such trials. The truth is that we have zero reason to think we will not have to fact such trials, whether the antichrist is present or not. We see the basic freedoms we have taken for granted quickly eroding before out very eyes. The freedoms we have enjoyed are unique in history, and in even the present world. So it should surprise no one of we lose them.

We need to remember that self confidence is a great trap. The first Apostle to tell the Lord He would follow Him to death was the first one to deny Him. But all the rest were also self-confident, and all the rest forsook Him and fled.

So all of us, regardless of what we believe, need to remember that we cannot be trusted. When the test comes, every one of us will most certainly fall unless we are in communion with the Holy Ghost. And every one who is in communion with Him will surely stand the test.

I agree. I think it is easy to say, “I will do thus for The Lord.” However, when facing the sword, the axe, or the guillotine, will one truly stay faithful even unto their very death? I personally do not wish for any to see such a day. However, we know that even today, some are facing persecution for their faith in Christ. The church has faced persecution since its inception. I see no reason why God will spare those at the end if He did not spare those at the beginning. What would be so special about the church at the end to make them worthy of complete removal and protection from all persecution when even Christ Himself as well as the early church faced horrendous persecution? I also believe He can preserve those He chooses to preserve through the wrath of Satan and, ultimately, His judgment without removing them from the earth; for if Paul was correct – and clearly I believe he was – someone will be left alive to see His coming and be transformed at that time. For this to happen, some will have to escape taking the mark or being killed for refusing to do so. However, the mistake would be in assuming that such an escape can only be in the form of a rapture. After all, John reveals that the woman flees (or escapes) into the wilderness where God has prepared a place for her to protect her from the dragon. She is preserved without being removed from the earth.

I don’t know that any of us truly know how we would react under such duress. If and when we face it, only then will we know what we are truly made of. So I think it behooves us all to stay humble and to pray for strength to endure whatever trials lay ahead for us in our own walk with The Lord, and pray for strength so that if we are put to the ultimate test, He will give us the strength to pass it. I believe that it is only through Christ that one can pass such a test.
 
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Mid-Tribulation Harvest (Pre-Wrath) is the only theory that fills all the gaps and answers the reason of Gods timing of the Harvest, the Harvest itself and the clouds. One must formulate when the Harvest is, by Gods past judgments and the literal purpose of the act itself. Going back to what Jesus said about it being like the days of Noah. This leaves us to believe that if even one other person was available that loved the Father as much as Noah, that person may have been allowed to enter the Ark. We know this by Abram trying to get God to spare Sodom if even 10 were righteous; Gen 18:32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."

With this belief, it is not a stretch to believe that the last day’s Harvest happens when the last person willing to choose Jesus as Lord and Savior ever does. Once that last hand goes up for Jesus, there is not one left without the mark of the beast and the rest have chosen their future.
 
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bibletruth469

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To TpeterY,

Do you believe that the entire church will be raptured ? I am talking about the 'true church ' not the professing one. . The reason I am asking is that some people believe that one can lose their salvation by their own choice. I do not believe that one could ever lose salvation , that would require a works system of belief .

I have noticed that many people on this forum believe that not every Christian will be part of the rapture, only the deserving ones. I don't believe that! Isn't that why Jesus died for us in the first place? Welcoming thoughts...
 
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BrotherRickG

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To TpeterY,

Do you believe that the entire church will be raptured ? I am talking about the 'true church ' not the professing one. . The reason I am asking is that some people believe that one can lose their salvation by their own choice. I do not believe that one could ever lose salvation , that would require a works system of belief .

I have noticed that many people on this forum believe that not every Christian will be part of the rapture, only the deserving ones. I don't believe that! Isn't that why Jesus died for us in the first place? Welcoming thoughts...

If you don't mind me responding to this also, it is a very good question that not many people ask. EVERYONE alive who professes with their heart that Jesus is Lord and Savior will be Harvested in Revelation 14:14. But, I also think animals will be harvested at that time to, so many will disagree and that is ok. We must be prepared for anything and everything and have our Hope in Jesus.

I wrote a paper on this because I think that a deceptive spirit has infiltrated our family with the only purpose to deceive the last days Saints. The paper is End Times. I have had good reviews from friends and customer that I have given it to. Let me know what you think. There is a lot going on now and not much time left in my opinion. We may have already steped over the threshold into the last day's, but only God knows.
 
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BrotherRickG said in post 10:

***red Alert, There Is No Rapture***

This is a true statement, the Bible has no wordage for a "Rapture".

The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming. For such an idea could be employed in the future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' 2nd coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3).

At that meeting Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

BrotherRickG said in post 10:

It does however have the true Biblical term of "The Harvest" which is Revelation 14:14.

Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

Revelation 14:12-13 refers to Christians being patient and faithful to the point of death in not worshipping the Antichrist and his image, and not receiving his mark, knowing that if they do those things, they will be punished by God with eternal suffering (Revelation 14:9-13). But if they refuse to do those things, when they are killed by the Antichrist, their still-conscious souls will be reaped by Jesus into the 3rd heaven (Revelation 14:14-16, Revelation 15:2). And they will later be resurrected into physical immortality along with the rest of the obedient church (of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6), immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Revelation 14:12-13 is the same idea as 1 Thessalonians 5:10-11, meaning obedient believers can have the Spirit's comfort at any time (John 14:15-17) in any tribulation (2 Corinthians 1:4-7) no matter whether they live or die.

BrotherRickG said in post 10:

That is when the Lord will protect His children from the cleansing of the earth.

All obedient people in the church will be spiritually protected during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, no matter what happens to them physically (Romans 8:35-37). The 144,000 male-virgins part of the church (Revelation 14:4), along with some others, will be physically protected so that they will survive the tribulation's first stage (in Revelation 6), while others will die and their souls will enter heaven (Revelation 7:9,14). Near the end of this first stage, the 144,000 will be sealed (Revelation 7:3-4) for physical protection before the unsealing of the 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). The first 6 trumpets' events, up to Revelation 9:19, will be the tribulation's 2nd stage. The seal which the 144,000 will receive (which will be different from and in addition to the seal of the Holy Spirit himself which they and all others in the church receive: Ephesians 1:13) will physically protect them during this 2nd stage (Revelation 9:4).

After the 2nd stage is over, the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church will be caught up in their mortal bodies as the "man child" to God's throne in heaven (Revelation 12:5, Revelation 14:4-5, Textus Receptus), like how Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:1). Right after the 144,000 are caught up, the tribulation's 3rd stage, the literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will begin (Revelation 12:5-6). This time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5-18, Revelation 14:9-13).

The 144,000 will remain in heaven before God's throne (Revelation 14:5, Textus Receptus) during the time of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 14:9-13, Revelation 13:5-18), while two other parts of the church will still be on the earth: the figurative "woman" who represents those in the church who will flee into prepared wilderness places and be physically protected (Revelation 12:6,14), and the remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17), those in the church who will remain in the cities and not be physically protected, but will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

After the Antichrist's reign is declared legally over at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly-temple opening (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). These vials will be the tribulation's 4th and final stage (Revelation 16). Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of these vials will be directed at those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have built for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had built for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:7). So some in the church will survive the entire future tribulation on the earth. They are those who will still be "alive and remain" at Jesus' 2nd coming to be raptured (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). These survivors will have experienced God's miraculous physical protection (Psalms 91) without having to have been part of the 144,000.

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BrotherRickG said in post 15:

We may have already steped over the threshold into the last day's, but only God knows.

The "last days" began in the first century AD with Jesus' first coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' (never fulfilled) 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).
 
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Biblewriter said in post 11:

Then you have never read anything written by a serious Bible scholar who is a dispensationalist.

Dispensationalism is mistaken because it sets up a mutual exclusiveness between the church and Israel, whereas the Bible shows that all genetic Jews in the church remain members of whichever tribe of Israel they were born into (Romans 11:1, Acts 4:36). And all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29) and so have been grafted into its various tribes (cf. Ezekiel 47:21-23). So the entire church is the 12 tribes of Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). A genetic Gentile believer can pray and ask which tribe of Israel he's been grafted into and he will receive an answer from God if he asks in faith (cf. Matthew 21:22) without any wavering (cf. James 1:6-7).

Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).

Also, the book of James was addressing "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1), which was the same as addressing people in the church (James 5:14), people with faith in Christ (James 2:1, James 1:3) (i.e. Christians), people who have been born again (James 1:18, cf. 1 Peter 1:23), who are waiting for Christ to return (James 5:7).

Biblewriter said in post 11:

The main reason for the pre-tribulation rapture is that the tribulation period is not even about the church.

The saints who will be in the tribulation will be the church, for they will be believers in Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 7:9,14, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Those in the church who will be in the tribulation could include most of the believers alive today, for there will be no pre-tribulation rapture (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:29-31).

Also, Matthew 24 was addressed privately to only believers (Matthew 24:3,4,9), and in Jesus' mind all believers of all times are one (John 17:20-21, Ephesians 4:4-6). The entire book of Revelation was likewise addressed to only believers (Revelation 1:1-4, Revelation 22:16). Just as the (mistaken) pre-tribulation rapture view admits that, for example, John 14 and Matthew 24's parallel chapter of Luke 21 can apply to those in the church today (e.g. Luke 21:36, John 14:3), so the pre-tribulation rapture view should be able to admit that Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can apply to those in the church today.

Matthew 24:9-13 refers to the future killing of Christians, those who will be hated and killed for the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9) in every nation of the earth during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Matthew 24:9-13 shows that not all Christians will continue to love Jesus during that time, but some Christians' love for him will grow cold because of their unrepentant sin (Matthew 24:12; 1 Timothy 4:1-2; 2 Timothy 4:3-4) or because they will become offended (Matthew 24:10) that he's letting them suffer in the tribulation (Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22; 1 Peter 4:12-13). Only those Christians who continue to love Jesus to the end will be ultimately saved (Matthew 24:13).

Biblewriter said in post 11:

These include the clear statements that "The Land of Israel" with "the mountains, the hills, the rivers, and the valleys," will again be "inhabited" by absolutely all of "the house of Israel," and that all the families remaining in the land will repent with bitter weeping, and that they will all know the Lord, from the least to the greatest. This is very plainly not the church.

If even those who are "strangers" in Israel can inherit the land of Israel (Ezekiel 47:21-23), then certainly believing Gentiles, who are "no more strangers" to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19), will inherit the land of Israel during the future millennium of Revelation 20:4-6. And they will inherit the land and all the other promises given to Israel (Ephesians 2:12,19, Ephesians 3:6, Galatians 3:29, Genesis 12:7) along with all the elect Jews who have ever been saved in the past or who will get saved in our future, including at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 12:10-14, Romans 11:25-32).

When Paul says "until the fulness (pleroma) of the Gentiles be come in" (Romans 11:25) he means until a full number of genetic Gentile individuals have become saved, which won't happen until near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Romans 11:26), just as Luke 21:24 shows "the times of the Gentiles" won't be "fulfilled (pleroo)" until the completion of the treading down of Jerusalem during the future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") (Revelation 11:2b, Revelation 13:5-18) during the 2nd half of the tribulation.

Immediately after the tribulation, at Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:29-30) all the still-living unsaved elect genetic Jews will become saved (Romans 11:26-28) by God's grace when they see the returned Jesus in person and believe in him (Zechariah 12:10-14). And so they will all become part of the church at that time, just as when genetic Jews believe in Jesus now they become part of the church, for there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And the genetic Jews who will become believers at the 2nd coming will all become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit, who is "the spirit of grace and of supplications" in Zechariah 12:10 (Hebrews 10:29c, Romans 8:26), just as genetic Jewish believers today become part of the church by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit. For it's by receiving some measure of the Holy Spirit that both genetic Jewish believers and genetic Gentile believers become part of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13).

Also, if the genetic Jews who will become saved at the 2nd coming had been religious Jews, they won't continue to mistakenly try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, because they will then be believers in the truth that on Jesus' Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the 2nd covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All believers, both Jews and Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law and shouldn't keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21) or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Believers keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).
 
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Kingdom_Come said in post 12:

After all, John reveals that the woman flees (or escapes) into the wilderness where God has prepared a place for her to protect her from the dragon. She is preserved without being removed from the earth.

That's right.

And the woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

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Genesis 37:9-10 isn't being referred to in Revelation 12:1 (as is sometimes claimed), for in Revelation 12:1 the church/Israel isn't clothed with the man Jacob (Genesis 37:9-10), but with the sun of righteousness (Malachi 4:2), through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church/Israel clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8, cf. also Revelation 21:2,9,12). Also, the church/Israel doesn't have the woman Rachel under her feet (Genesis 37:9-10), but Satan (Romans 16:20), as the church/Israel overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). And the church/Israel doesn't have Jacob's 12 sons placed over her (Genesis 37:9-10), but the 12 apostles (1 Corinthians 12:28, Matthew 10:2, Acts 1:26), each one of whom will rule over one of her 12 tribes (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30).
 
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iamlamad

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Matthew 24:29-31
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.



I know many are so fixed on being gone due to a pre-trib rapture, but have most stopped and given a thought on, what if they are wrong and we are meant to go through the tribulation?

God protected his people from the plagues in Egypt, so do you think he cant do the same during the tribulation as well?

Would you actually be willing to be beheaded for your faith in Christ?

Would you take the Mark of the Beast, if it stopped your children and family of dying from starvation in front of your own eyes?


Im not saying there wont be a pre-trib and a post-trib rapture is a must, but scriptures when read in context point to Jesus coming back after the tribulation for his followers, so if we are to go through the Great Tribulation are you prepared???

I will answer this question with a question:

IF there is no salvation, are you prepared to spend eternity in hell?

This question makes just about as much sense as " If there is no Pre-Trib rapture...".

The truth?

OF COURSE there is Salvation through grace by faith from the shed blood of Jesus Christ that washes away sins.

OF COURSE there will be a pretrib rapture. The verses in Matt. 24 are talking about the end of the 70th week, NOT the end of the church age.

OF COURSE Jesus will return on the white horse at the end of the 70th week, as John shows us in Revelation.

OF COURSE Jesus will return to the air BEFORE the "trib" or 70th week even begins. Paul's rapture can only be found in Paul's letters; Jesus did not speak of it at all, except through Paul. However, John got to SEE the raptured church in heaven, in Rev. 7.

LAMAD
 
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BrotherRickG

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The English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" to Jesus at his 2nd coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31, John 14:3), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Yea, that is what has been taught to Christians for awhile. You seem to be so adamant that you may be setting yourself up for a fall. You can say you know everything, but that does not mean you do. Be careful Brother

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' 2nd coming.

I believe in the Harvest (Rapture) just not your timing. It doesn't fit. You are not that special and there cannot be two Raptures. Remember that Jesus said it will be as in the Day's of Noah. God did not have Noah build two Arks. Gods purpose for the Ark was to protect what He has separated from the world and that includes animals.

Revelation 14:14-16 refers to Jesus sitting on a single cloud in the 3rd heaven and reaping into the 3rd heaven (beginning mid-tribulation) the souls of those in the church who will be killed (Revelation 14:13) by the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be during the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. They will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist and his image, and refusing to receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-16, cf. Revelation 15:2, Revelation 20:4-6).

These points are very repetitious and taught by people that think they know everything for 100's of years. I say again, be careful. Deception didn't start today, it was installed into our interpretations a long time ago. No different that the Pharisees being taught the wrong Messiah. There were too arrogant to recognize the slight changes over a long period time. Remember what Jesus said when He confronted them. Too many scriptures to quote.

I see the theologians of today the same as the Pharisees of yesterday don't you? Before you get upset at that statement, Saul of Tarsus was one of those people and He and a few others were saved in the Bible.
 
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