If theistic evolution, how can God save a raven?

[Job 33:6]

Then there's no truly naturalist processes.

I view the TE much like I view the birth of a child. We can use all the scientific instruments in the world to look at how a baby is born with splitting embryos and sperm and eggs etc. But just because we can't hold a tape measurement up to God to see how big He is, doesn't mean that He isn't active, present and involved when a child is born.

The same for TE. We can measure mutations and observe any biological change under a microscope, but that doesn't mean that God is not present or active in evolution. Meaning that it is both a natural process, as well as a process in which God is in full control.

 

[renniks]

I view the TE much like I view the birth of a child. We can use all the scientific instruments in the world to look at how a baby is born with splitting embryos and sperm and eggs etc. But just because we can't hold a tape measurement up to God to see how big He is, doesn't mean that He isn't active, present and involved when a child is born.

The same for TE. We can measure mutations and observe any biological change under a microscope, but that doesn't mean that God is not present or active in evolution. Meaning that it is both a natural process, as well as a process in which God is in full control.

Well since I don't believe in molecules to man evolution, I don't have to embrace that contradiction.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I have significant issue with theistic evolution...

Reason 1

Genesis 1:1 1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth

Genesis 1:31And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

Genesis 2:21So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep, and while he slept, He took one of the man’s ribsf and closed up the area with flesh. 22And from the rib that the LORD God had taken from the man, He made a woman and brought her to him.

Genesis 2:1Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2And by the seventh day God had finished the work He had been doing; so on that day He rested from all His work.

Genesis 2:19And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and He brought them to the man to see what he would name each one. And whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20The man gave names to all the livestock, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.

It seems to me that in order for theistic evolution to work, God would have needed to set things in motion and then evoution runs its course. The problem is, Genesis speaks very clearly of exact days, events that happened on those days, and of forming Adam out of the dust of the ground. The mere fact that Adam named all of the animals means that they were on the scene within the very earliest part of Adams lifetime. We know Adam lived for 930 years because Moses tells us through inspiration from God that is how long Adam lived for. The timeline of all of this taking place within Adam's lifetime leaves no room for the evolution of 1 cell organisms over millions of years into to Humans, fish, birds, bats, insects, apes, or camels!

BTW if one was to google the definition of "forming" in the context of how the word is used in Genesis...
"bring together parts or combine to create (something)."

Reason 2

Theistic evolutionists accept the scientific consensus on the age of the Earth, the Big Bang and evolution. Theistic evolution - Wikipedia

One cannot accept the big bang within the context of the book of Genesis. The description of events in Genesis is far too coordinated, timetabled, logical, and specific! Evolution works on the premise of chaos...this is in direct contrast with Creation and Christianity. God is not chaos and i challenge anyone to prove using the Bible that he is! (note that is a pointless initiative because the Bible says, God is love and his laws are laws of Love. This means love is order, stability, and harmony)

There are oil deposits found all over the world. They are not region specific. These oil wells range in depth up to "The world’s deepest oil well, known as Z-44 Chayvo, goes over 40,000 ft (12 km) into the ground – equal to 15 Burj Khalifas" Infographic: Visualizing The World's Deepest Oil Well (visualcapitalist.com)

Origins of Crude Oil (refined for use in Ships, Trucks, Cars, Aircraft)

"Crude oil originates from ancient fossilized organic materials," Oil - Wikipedia

Fossilized organic materials were once living organisms that have been buried under sedimentary rock with enormous pressure over time, thus forming oil and coal.

A 2 part question with regard to sedimentation and the wiping out of the dinasoars...

If a meteorite struck the earth and killed the dinosaurs and wiped out other living things, how is it possible that anything survived a "world-wide" meteor strike large enough to deposit such vast quantities of sedimentary soil on top of all living things thus creating oil fields that are at similar sedimentary deposit depths and therefore likely the same age?

In order to form oil and coal fields around the entire globe, the meteorite would have needed to be large enough to cover the whole earth under immeasurable quantities of sedimentry rock. How is this possible without destroying the earth completely, and/or knocking it off course in its pathway around the sun thus making our proximity to the sun such that life isnt even possible?

Another problem...the definition of sedimentry rock...

"Sedimentary rocks are types of rock that are formed by the accumulation or deposition of mineral or organic particles at the Earth's surface, followed by cementation." Sedimentary rock - Wikipedia

There are two types of deposition of sedimentary rocks. These are:
1. Biological - marine animal deposits settling on the floors of oceans for example
2. Geological - the weathering and erosion of existing particles that are then carried along by water (such as in the case of a flood) and settling.

If water is the means by which our currently accepted method of sedmentary deposit occurs, how did a massive meteorite large enough to cause the entire globe to be deposited with sediment not also break the planet into pieces and/or knock it off course in space thus upsetting the balance of life supporting distance from the sun?

Finally

The deepest man made bore hole on earth is Kola Superdeep in Russia (near border with Norway).
"To scientists, one of the more fascinating findings to emerge from this well is that no transition from granite to basalt was found at the depth of about 7 km (4.3 mi), where the velocity of seismic waves has a discontinuity. Instead the change in the seismic wave velocity is caused by a metamorphic transition in the granite rock. In addition, the rock at that depth had been thoroughly fractured and was saturated with water, which was surprising...and had been unable to reach the surface because of a layer of impermeable rock. Microscopic plankton fossils were found 6 kilometers (4 mi) below the surface." Kola Superdeep Borehole - Wikipedia

The most logical answer to the above references (particularly the Kola Superdeep Bore Hole in Russia) is the Biblical Flood.

The story of the flood says the following about deep underground water...

Genesis 7":11In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month, all the fountains of the great deep burst forth,

then when the flood event was at the point of completion...

Genesis8:1 But God remembered Noah and all the animals and livestock that were with him in the ark. And God sent a wind over the earth, and the waters began to subside. 2The springs of the deep and the floodgates of the heavens were closed,

 

[Job 33:6]

"If a meteorite struck the earth and killed the dinosaurs and wiped out other living things, how is it possible that anything survived a "world-wide" meteor strike large enough to deposit such vast quantities of sedimentary soil on top of all living things thus creating oil fields that are at similar sedimentary deposit depths and therefore likely the same age?"

Yikes.

A lot of oil, such as that of the Marcellus shale (gas liquids), is greater than twice the age of the dinosaurs, or oil of the underlying Utica shale as well. Oil is from more than just dinosaurs, it's from many organic sources, algae and plants in particular. But also, it's found all throughout the geologic column.

Oil Comes from Dinosaurs - Fact or Fiction?.

Also, feel free to read about the k-t boundary if you haven't already.

I would highly recommend reading about plate tectonics and studying cross sections, then re examine your thoughts.

Otherwise I do appreciate the novel question.

 

[Job 33:6]

"In order to form oil and coal fields around the entire globe, the meteorite would have needed to be large enough to cover the whole earth under immeasurable quantities of sedimentry rock. How is this possible without destroying the earth completely, and/or knocking it off course in its pathway around the sun thus making our proximity to the sun such that life isnt even possible?"


Please familiarize yourself with plate tectonics and then re examine your questions. If you would like help doing so, feel free to ask.

Cenozoic strata isn't a product of asteroid debris. To answer the question.

And you should familiarize yourself with the geologic column as well, so that you can understand the temporal sequence of the rock layers. That would help you understand relative age differences between oil fields.

 

[Job 33:6]

"In order to form oil and coal fields around the entire globe, the meteorite would have needed to be large enough to cover the whole earth under immeasurable quantities of sedimentry rock. How is this possible without destroying the earth completely, and/or knocking it off course in its pathway around the sun thus making our proximity to the sun such that life isnt even possible?"


Please familiarize yourself with plate tectonics and then re examine your questions. If you would like help doing so, feel free to ask.

Cenozoic strata isn't a product of asteroid debris. To answer the question.

And you should familiarize yourself with the geologic column as well, so that you can understand the temporal sequence of the rock layers. That would help you understand relative age differences between oil fields.

For example, take the following:

So dinosaurs are found in the mosozoic (not the Paleozoic or cenozoic or anywhere else).

The K-T boundary is a very thin iridium rich layer of asteroid debris. And by very thin, I mean literally just a few inches down to millimeters depending on where you are on earth. And it rests between the Cretaceous and tertiary periods, or cretaceous-paleocene boundary depending on the terminology you want to use. It's a thin layer between the Mesozoic and cenozoic eras.

But above the k-t boundary is all strata of other sources, such as oceanic trans and regressive sequences. And 99% of strata above dinosaurs simply isn't a product of asteroid debris.

And to further clarify, oil fields are found all throughout the geologic column. They're found in periods earlier than dinosaurs (rock layers lower than dinosaurs), they're found in Mesozoic strata along side dinosaurs and they're found after dinosaurs (between layers above dinosaurs) as well depending on where you look.

And so much of the questions above seem to be based around misconceptions.

 

[Job 33:6]

"Microscopic plankton fossils were found 6 kilometers (4 mi) below the surface." Kola Superdeep Borehole - Wikipedia"

Plankton had been around for a long time. This isn't surprising. Now if you found a dinosaur or a mammal or bird or plant or reptile or amphibian down there, these would be surprising finds. But plankton are found in deep rocks worldwide. The rest doesn't sound out of the ordinary either.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

"If a meteorite struck the earth and killed the dinosaurs and wiped out other living things, how is it possible that anything survived a "world-wide" meteor strike large enough to deposit such vast quantities of sedimentary soil on top of all living things thus creating oil fields that are at similar sedimentary deposit depths and therefore likely the same age?"

Yikes.

A lot of oil, such as that of the Marcellus shale (gas liquids), is greater than twice the age of the dinosaurs, or oil of the underlying Utica shale as well. Oil is from more than just dinosaurs, it's from many organic sources, algae and plants in particular. But also, it's found all throughout the geologic column.

Oil Comes from Dinosaurs - Fact or Fiction?.

Also, feel free to read about the k-t boundary if you haven't already.

I would highly recommend reading about plate tectonics and studying cross sections, then re examine your thoughts.

Otherwise I do appreciate the novel question.

I did not say oil comes only from Dinosaurs. I am not sure where you got that idea from?

The problem with evolution theory on plankton is this...what eats plankton? In order for a system to work, said system needs to follow a food chain, so where there is plankton, there is a predator that feeds on it. That predator has a larger predator that feeds upon it, and so the cycle goes onto larger and larger predators. At some point in the food tree, the larger predators size is restricted by the food available to them. This is when the food chain ceases to produce even larger predators.

The age of the oil deposits is irrelevant...non Christian scientists age using the sedimentary layers and attempt to age them based on scientific theory of how long it might take for those layers to deposit using theoretical events. This theory refuses to acknowledge the flood and in light of that fact, it must then attempt to find some other method of explanation...the solution, saying it took millions or billions of years!

Also, the water deposit found in the Kola Superdeep is 1km BELOW the fossilised plankton layer! This is supportive of the flood version...the fountains of the deep were loosed and came up from below engulfing every living thing in water!

The truth remains, a christian cannot discount the creation story as a literal description of events. The Bible simply doesnt work that way. Take a part out of it, and the entire story begins to unravel. I would argue that theistic evolutionists are not Christian and i imagine they are probably not concerned by such a statement.

My conclusion is that the Biblical flood, due to the global scale of oil deposits, was also global.

 

[Job 33:6]

I did not say oil comes only from Dinosaurs. I am not sure where you got that idea from?

The problem with evolution theory on plankton is this...what eats plankton? In order for a system to work, said system needs to follow a food chain, so where there is plankton, there is a predator that feeds on it. That predator has a larger predator that feeds upon it, and so the cycle goes onto larger and larger predators. At some point in the food tree, the larger predators size is restricted by the food available to them. This is when the food chain ceases to produce even larger predators.

The age of the oil deposits is irrelevant...non Christian scientists age using the sedimentary layers and attempt to age them based on scientific theory of how long it might take for those layers to deposit using theoretical events. This theory refuses to acknowledge the flood and in light of that fact, it must then attempt to find some other method of explanation...the solution, saying it took millions or billions of years!

Also, the water deposit found in the Kola Superdeep is 1km BELOW the fossilised plankton layer! This is supportive of the flood version...the fountains of the deep were loosed and came up from below engulfing every living thing in water!

The truth remains, a christian cannot discount the creation story as a literal description of events. The Bible simply doesnt work that way. Take a part out of it, and the entire story begins to unravel. I would argue that theistic evolutionists are not Christian and i imagine they are probably not concerned by such a statement.

My conclusion is that the Biblical flood, due to the global scale of oil deposits, was also global.

"That predator has a larger predator that feeds upon it, and so the cycle goes onto larger and larger predators. At some point in the food tree, the larger predators size is restricted by the food available to them. This is when the food chain ceases to produce even larger predators"

In the archean there were no large predators. There wasn't anything but other plankton and microscopic species. There were no mammals, fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds etc. Hence why none are observed in the boring. They simply didn't exist yet.


It seems that you don't have a clear argument from a scientific stance. And with that, I'll move on.

 

[Job 33:6]

"I did not say oil comes only from Dinosaurs. I am not sure where you got that idea from?"

You said :

"If a meteorite struck the earth and killed the dinosaurs and wiped out other living things, how is it possible that anything survived a "world-wide" meteor strike large enough to deposit such vast quantities of sedimentary soil on top of all living things thus creating oil fields "


This suggests that you think an asteroid hit the earth, killed dinosaurs and resulted in the formation of oil via deposition of cenozoic strata.

But as noted above :

Many oil fields predate and post date the existence of dinosaurs and cenozoic strata isn't made of asteroid debris. Which is to say that an asteroid didn't deposit layers above dinosaurs, nor did asteroids deposit strata below dinosaurs, nor are oil fields above or below dinosaurs made of anything relating to dinosaurs.

If you know that oil doesn't come from dinosaurs, why even mention them at all? And if oil pre dates and post dates the asteroid impact that killed the dinosaur, what does the asteroid have to do with anything?

These questions imply that you should probably study the subject more. If you would like, I could attempt to teach you or at least continue to help you answer these questions.

 

[Job 33:6]

"such vast quantities of sedimentary soil on top of all living things thus creating oil fields that are at similar sedimentary deposit depths and therefore likely the same age?"" - @AdamjEdgar

"The age of the oil deposits is irrelevant"- @AdamjEdgar

You brought up age first. But now you're saying it's irrelevant?

Ill be around if you have a clear idea of what your argument is.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

"such vast quantities of sedimentary soil on top of all living things thus creating oil fields that are at similar sedimentary deposit depths and therefore likely the same age?"" - @AdamjEdgar

"The age of the oil deposits is irrelevant"- @AdamjEdgar

You brought up age first. But now you're saying it's irrelevant?

Ill be around if you have a clear idea of what your argument is.

Age is irrelevant because the aging model used does not consider that a global flood (the most logical answer) is the cause of sedimentation deposits many km thick!

Also, have you ever heard of Hydroplate theory - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science ? It states that the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter actually came from the earth itself as a result of the ejection of matter from the earth when the fountains of the deep burst forth in Genesis story of the flood.

I am not saying i believe this theory, it is only new to me, however i am begining to research it for myself.

 

[Job 33:6]

Age is irrelevant because the aging model used does not consider that a global flood (the most logical answer) is the cause of sedimentation deposits many km thick!

Also, have you ever heard of Hydroplate theory - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science ? It states that the asteroid belt between Mars and Jupiter actually came from the earth itself as a result of the ejection of matter from the earth when the fountains of the deep burst forth in Genesis story of the flood.

I am not saying i believe this theory, it is only new to me, however i am begining to research it for myself.

Then why did you bring age up to begin with?

Anyway. Feel free to let me know if you have any questions related to geology. Otherwise, all the best.

 

[Hank77]

Meaning that it is both a natural process, as well as a process in which God is in full control.

Could we say that God created/designed the natural process that He controls?

 

[Job 33:6]

Could we say that God created/designed the natural process that He controls?

Well God is creator, designer and in control of everything that exists. So yes. Just as God is in control of our lives though we live with body's that run on natural processes.

 

[SkyWriting]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

God delivers food according to His plans. Big plans, not little plans.

 

[jamiec]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

Why would God be bound by evolution ? And how does that verse deny God’s Providence in a world in which evolution is taken - by later readers - to be a reality ?

The Bible is not a (series of) book(s) on evolution. It is a book about God and His acts. It has next to nothing to say about anything even resembling the sciences. Why would it have anything to say about them ?

 

[Sheila Davis]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

In as few words as possible _ when God told the Earth to bring forth living creatures -creepy crawly things _ he then provided the Raven its food source.
Job is simply saying all things rely on God for survival _ in the beginning God provided provisions for all of his creations which continue and will continue until the end of days.

 

[Stephen3141]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

I would say that it depends on your definition of God.

There are many definitions of God, that are not the distant "watchmaker",
who created the universe, then let it develop however it would.

God could be present in all the physical universe, upholding regular
"laws", but also changing outcomes as he wishes.

 

[Ragdoll]

Hi everyone,
I don't believe theistic evolution is true and I'd like to challenge believers from the evolutionist side again:
The ToE is about survival of the fittest. If animals can't find food, they simply die. The ones best adapted to their environment survive. According to that theory, if I understand it right.

Now Job 38:41 says:
Who provides for the raven its prey, when its young ones cry to God for help, and wander about for lack of food?

To my knowledge, the ToE does not leave any room for interventions like this. God helping animals wandering for lack of food out of love?

Regards,
Thomas

The surivival of the fittest is true in the sense that sin tends to bring out the worst in humanity in times of need. Though we also see another nature to man as well as animals to will not live by survuval of the fittest. Yes, this has been seen in animals such a lions but for lions its not the most beneficial trait. Though for humans, an entire society living by survival of the fittest is a vengeful society that will not last as a nation or tribe of people. So there are two natures of humanity and not just one nature as evolutionists want us to believe. Christians have proven there is a higher order of morality that goes beyond fighting over food, shelter and sex. We have received in us an alien spirit when we receive the holy spirit into our lives. Remember, Jesus said we are not of this world. This means our very nature is at odds with the ways of the world. Evolutionists advocate for the barbaric ways of the world where embracing sin and death is considered the norm for humanity. But Jesus introduced a greater calling of nature through His redeptive power. We can live without stepping on other people to get on top. We can eat without fighting for our food. Keep in mind that it was Christianity that took us out of the barbaric world where everyone had to fight for food, shelter and sex. Thus the modern world which our Christian faith produced had a much stronger morality than what they lived in prior to Christ' life and teachings.

Consider the sheep. As far back as history records sheep always needed a shepherd. Without a shepherd how will the sheep take care of themselves? Would not the sheep become easy prey without a shepherd? Sure they would. So how could sheep live without a shepherd? How are they to survive the fittest and continue on as a species? Sheep need a shepherd just like we need Jesus Christ.

In reality, the survival of the fittest belief is just common life living on a sinful earth. It does not say anything about evolution theory. While it does seem to be a major doctrine of evolution, survival of the fittest held by evolutionists can be easily debunked just by pointing out Christian doctrines like humility and gentleness and charity. We have lived better by those Christian values. And if indeed we know we can live better quality lives living in Christ' teachings, why should we have anything to fear from evolutionist doctrines that only apply to the wicked?

Evolution is the belief that what we see in the nature world was uncreated, a mere product of star dust. Evolutionists believe that species will evolve into a species completely different than what it evolved from. This is macro-evolution (not to be confused with micro-evolution). Its the belief that what lives in the sea will one day walk on dry ground and evolve into a mammal. Its the belief that every living thing we see on earth all evolved from little rodents who allegedly survived the K/pg extinction (asteroid extinction theory). Thus, we are to suppose that elephants, lions, tigers, bears, giraffes, humans, deer, wolves, and rhinos all evolved from little mice. That is what evolution teaches and that is what we do not believe in. However, survival of the fittest actually does apply in the fallen state of this world. We live in an inperfect fallen world and we can expect to see sinful behavior from all humans, including ourselves at times. But if we follow Jesus in the spirit we can overcome the ways of the world and live a life that goes beyond the shallow and hollow philosophies of this world. Jesus said to love your neighbor as yourself. This means not stealing from him and killing him for his car or a pair of shoes or to have his wife. And when a woman doesn't want you, walk away and accept it. Survival of the fittest would have you just take her against her will. That is not how we Christians behave. We do have the right to defend our country and our homes from evil people. But we live our daily lives in love and harmony in Christ which allows us to live beyond the limited scope of survival of the fittest.

The first three chapters in the book of Wisdom (from the Apocrypha) address how ancient Jews lived differently from ancient atheists. The big difference is belief, having knowledge of the soul verses denying the soul like atheists do.
Bible Gateway passage: Wisdom 1-3 - Revised Standard Version