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If the soul forms at conception, then how do twins, triplets, etc. factor in?
- Thread starter CrystalDragon
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- Oct 17, 2015
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I've heard at various points that many are pro-life because a person gains a soul at the moment of conception.
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ViaCrucis
Confessional Lutheran
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Back in the day this was one of the theories of ensoulment, that the joining of the two parents, in a sense, gave rise to a new soul, thus the soul of the child was due to this.
Ultimately the dominant opinion on the subject was known as creationism (before that word meant something else entirely), the creationist position was that the soul was created individually by God. There was some debate about when though. A common view was that ensoulment had taken place with a "formed fetus" rather than an "unformed fetus"; effectively around the end of the first trimester. One view involved the notion of a progressive, developing soul borrowed from Greek philosophy (namely Aristotle) wherein the soul develops in stages as the fetus develops in the womb,
"For nobody would put down the unfertilized embryo as soulless or in every sense bereft of life (since both the sperm and the embryo of an animal have every bit as much life as a plant), and it is productive up to a certain point. That then they possess the nutritive soul is plain (and plain is it from the discussions elsewhere about soul why this soul must be acquired first). As they develop they also acquire the sensitive soul in virtue of which an animal is an animal. For e.g. an animal does not become at the same time an animal and a man or a horse or any other particular animal. For the end is developed last, and the peculiar character of the species is the end of the generation in each individual." - Aristotle, On the Generation of Animals, II.3
It is important to understand that Aristotle held to a different understanding of the soul than did his teacher Plato, for Plato the soul was in a sense the real self which had existed in the prior, perfect world which had become housed in the body; Aristotle on the other hand maintained that the soul was the usefulness of a thing (the soul of a knife is cutting), and different sorts of soul(s) existed according to living systems plants have a soul (they're alive), animals have a soul (they breathe, move), and human beings have a soul; the latter two being the "sensitive soul"--able to perceive by the senses--and the "rational soul", the capacity for reason giving way to intellect. Thus even the unfertilized embryo has a soul of some sort (even as plants do); in the womb the fetus develops, matures, and likewise ultimately matures to being a rational creature with a rational soul--a fully human person.
-CryptoLutheran
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TagliatelliMonster
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Really? That seems to be problematic in light of free will.
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TagliatelliMonster
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Is a person's personality determined by its soul, then?
In that case, I wonder how you explain people who go down after trauma with personality X and wake up again with personality Y.
Really? With artificial insimination, chances of twins (or triplets or even more) are exponentially higher. So does your god send "more" souls into the whomb of women who undergo such a procedure?
Or could it perhaps be that this phenomena has nothing to do with souls, but with other, physical factors?
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Another Lazarus
Old Newbie
It has nothing to do with limitation of freewill, God didnt create us as robots
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TagliatelliMonster
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If all births are already "planned" ahead of time, then it most certaintly does limit freewill.
Consider the ancestral bloodline that has lead to your existance. Consider all the people that had to meet eachother and have sex, in order for all your ancestors (and you) to be born.
Consider all the decision that had to be made for it to play out like this.
Take me for example... my dad is an immigrant. Back in the 50s, when his parents migrated, they had the choice between the Netherlands, Germany, England and Belgium. They chose Belgium and lived in Brussels. My mom lived in Antwerp. They met at a nightclub in Gent. And so on and so on.
To state that my birth was planned ahead of time, puts some serious question marks behind the "freedom" all those people had to make the "right" decision.
If even only ONE of those decisions went another way, I would have never existed.
Freewill literally means that you are free to choose between any given set of options.
But the only way all births could have been "planned", is if there really was no choice at all.
To say that all births were "planned" is thus synonymous to saying that all decisions and choices were planned as well.
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I don't know that their personality is so much changed as their ability to express it the same way. When people get very sick, often their personalities change too....but they go back to normal as they heal. I think that some brain traumas are just stuck in the altered personality because they will never completely heal.
The reason artificial insemination causes most multiples is because there are multiple eggs placed in the woman, not that a single egg splits multiple times. I think that there are a slightly more identicals in IVF than natural only because of numbers. Most women fertilize one egg at at time, so if 10 eggs are fertilized, there is a great chance that one of those eggs might divide.
And I never said I had the answer (because nobody does). This is just my theory. What is yours if you are going to tear apart mine?
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TagliatelliMonster
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I'm not talking about psychological changes as a result of having to deal with cancer or something... like in some kind of self-reflection of your life after being at the brink of death.
I'm talking about actually altered personality as a result of brain trauma.
You said it yourself in your last sentence... This would suggest that your personality is rather determined by your physical brain instead of by some "soul" (whatever that is).
So if 10 eggs are fertilized and only 1 "hatches"... does that mean that now 9 "souls" are destroyed?
I don't require a "theory" to explain entities that I consider imaginary.
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Another Lazarus
Old Newbie
God never destined us to have sex with anybody without marriage,
you do that on your freewill and God would wipe you off if you dont repent.
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TagliatelliMonster
Well-Known Member
Nice attempt at dodging the points being made, with this derailment.
Ain't gonna work though.
Any time you wish to actually respond to the points I raised...
In the meantime, I'll just assume that your attempt at derailment was just an exercise in futility to try and destract from the fact that you don't have a proper response.
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If humans get a soul at conception there is a much larger question, what becomes of the majority of embryos that fail to implant and pass totally unnoticed? If they go to heaven that would mean that the majority of heavens population nevere was aware of their earthly existence.
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What about conjoined twins? do they share a soul? if so, what happens if they're separated in later life?
If they get a soul each, at what point does that happen?
How functional does the least functional twin have to be to get a soul? - they can range from vegetative to full consciousness with normal intelligence.
Are there different kinds or qualities of soul, or are they all the same standard issue?
Just wonderin'.
If they get a soul each, at what point does that happen?
How functional does the least functional twin have to be to get a soul? - they can range from vegetative to full consciousness with normal intelligence.
Are there different kinds or qualities of soul, or are they all the same standard issue?
Just wonderin'.
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PsychoSarah
Chaotic Neutral
I'd assume that souls themselves, if they were tied to our physical bodies in any way, would grow and develop over time. Thus, when an embryo splits into identical twins, the forming soul does the same, and thus two souls come from one. Since the souls then develop in independent bodies, they acquire differences over time. I suppose that conjoined twins would have likewise conjoined souls.
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Another Lazarus
Old Newbie
God created everything and He gave total freewill, if man do good or do sins that is by his own will, however, God will wipe off the evil people from the book of Life.
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Abortion is the killing of a person to be. Adults who have been born and enjoy the gift of life should be
morally reluctant to deny it to their (or to other's) children.
Abortion is more often a form of contraceptive by adults who want sex without responsibility for their
promiscuous "love-making."
Not only is a child denied life, but also any other further children that such an aborted child could have gone on to have themselves.
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