If the soul forms at conception, then how do twins, triplets, etc. factor in?

[Radrook]

The idea of an immortal soul sounds strangely similar to what the Devil told Eve. "You will NOT die!"

 

[Desk trauma]

Abortion is the killing of a person to be.

Also an an exspress pass to heaven, or so I'm told, without the risk of the child not believing or misbeliveing and winding up damned for it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Also an an exspress pass to heaven, or so I'm told, without the risk of the child not believing or misbeliveing and winding up damned for it.

We call that the age of accountability.

Adults are saved by grace through faith.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Small children are saved by grace through innocence.

Matthew 18:14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[CrystalDragon]

The idea of an immortal soul sounds strangely similar to what the Devil told Eve. "You will NOT die!"

Well, the devil didn't tell that to Eve, just a serpent, but other than that I see the point you're trying to make. However, Adam and Eve did start dying in the sense that their bodies began to decay.

 

[Radrook]

Well, the devil didn't tell that to Eve, just a serpent, but other than that I see the point you're trying to make. However, Adam and Eve did start dying in the sense that their bodies began to decay.

But if they have an immortal soul that survives and which is really them, then they never die. They simply are released from an earthly body.

The serpent is identified in Revelation as the Devil.

Revelation 20:2 ►
New International Version
He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

 

[blackribbon]

I'm not talking about psychological changes as a result of having to deal with cancer or something... like in some kind of self-reflection of your life after being at the brink of death.

I'm talking about actually altered personality as a result of brain trauma.
You said it yourself in your last sentence... This would suggest that your personality is rather determined by your physical brain instead of by some "soul" (whatever that is).

I AM talking about altered personalities...I see them come in the hospital all the time..."Mom is just not her self...she is NEVER like this". We correct the problem and mom is herself again personality-wise. So YES, complete REAL personality changes...not psychological changes related to dealing with crisis. In brain injured people, they just can't get well so their personality stays altered.

So if 10 eggs are fertilized and only 1 "hatches"... does that mean that now 9 "souls" are destroyed?

I believe that the answer is yes. Though not destroyed. They eventually die and go with all other souls of people who have died.

I don't require a "theory" to explain entities that I consider imaginary.

So why waste time on a Christian forum if you don't care about things like this? You honestly believe that when someone dies, they completely stop existing?

 

[blackribbon]

I suppose that conjoined twins would have likewise conjoined souls.

Conjoined twins are two independent people like identical twins that share organs, not personalities. I believe they are two completely different souls. When they are separated surgically, often one twin dies because they there is only one organ and two people needing it. The one that lives doesn't live with part of a soul...and the one that dies, doesn't not have a soul.

 

[blackribbon]

If humans get a soul at conception there is a much larger question, what becomes of the majority of embryos that fail to implant and pass totally unnoticed? If they go to heaven that would mean that the majority of heavens population nevere was aware of their earthly existence.

What embryos go unnoticed? They know how many get implanted and how many survive to implant. That means they know how many fail to implant. And yes, that embryo dies....so the same as if a 100 year old man died. The only different is human age.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

God created everything and He gave total freewill, if man do good or do sins that is by his own will, however, God will wipe off the evil people from the book of Life.

Still not addressing the points being made and again just resorting to the same derailment. Also crossing over into preaching now.

Just further confirmation that you have no valid response to the actual point being made.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Abortion is the killing of a person to be. Adults who have been born and enjoy the gift of life should be
morally reluctant to deny it to their (or to other's) children.
Abortion is more often a form of contraceptive by adults who want sex without responsibility for their
promiscuous "love-making."

Not only is a child denied life, but also any other further children that such an aborted child could have gone on to have themselves.

"person to be"?
So just a "potential" person then?

In that case, shouldn't it also be a sin for me to not have sex with my wife right now? Because if we did, she would get pregnant most likely. So that's a "potential person" right there...

It was said that the "soul" enters the person when that person is born. Meaning that before birth, no soul is present.

Since the general idea is that the person IS the soul (while the body is just a meatbag vessel), then from that it follows that no person/soul is harmed by an abortion.

I'll make it extra clear with a point by point argument:

P1: the soul = the person
P2: the soul enters the body during birth
Conclusion: before birth, there is no soul in the body. So, before being born, the body isn't a "person" but just a soul-less meatbag. Therefor, abortion does not harm a person.

Please point out the flaw.


Also, for bonus points, others in this thread have said that all souls already exist ahead of time and that all births were "planned" ahead of time as well.
I brought up the point about how that is problematic in context of freewill, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it isn't a problem and that somehow, for some unknown reason, all decisions are "free" and it just happens to play out exactly as planned so that all already existing souls can be born into people.

I would assume then, that this plan INCLUDES births that never take place.
As in, it would be part of the plan that many pregnancies spontanously abort. It would also be part of the plan that some pregnancies will be medically aborted. According to this logic of "planned births for already existing souls", all those aborted pregnancies (natural or otherwise) were never planned to actually result in an actual birth.

Right?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In brain injured people, they just can't get well so their personality stays altered.

Exactly. So how does that then not support the idea that personalities are determined by the physical brain??? Instead of by this unknown, undetectable, seperate entity refered to as the "soul"?

I believe that the answer is yes

Why?

So why waste time on a Christian forum if you don't care about things like this?

Why not?

You honestly believe that when someone dies, they completely stop existing?

It's kind of what "dead" means.

 

[blackribbon]

Exactly. So how does that then not support the idea that personalities are determined by the physical brain??? Instead of by this unknown, undetectable, seperate entity refered to as the "soul"?

Because the personality never changes in a well brain. It only changes in a sick brain. So I think that indicates that there is a damaged path for expressing the personality in a sick or damaged brain. Not that the personality really changed. Make the brain well again, and the personality goes back...unless there is a psychological change and then I think that the soul may just grow or become jaded. I think that the personality and soul are connected somehow. Again, just my opinion and based on my own observations as a nurse.

And dead just means the biological function of a body is no longer functioning. If there is a non-biological aspect to the human, it may live on. I believe this is the soul...and our personality is contained in our soul.

 

[blackribbon]

Also, for bonus points, others in this thread have said that all souls already exist ahead of time and that all births were "planned" ahead of time as well.
I brought up the point about how that is problematic in context of freewill, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it isn't a problem and that somehow, for some unknown reason, all decisions are "free" and it just happens to play out exactly as planned so that all already existing souls can be born into people.

I would assume then, that this plan INCLUDES births that never take place.
As in, it would be part of the plan that many pregnancies spontanously abort. It would also be part of the plan that some pregnancies will be medically aborted. According to this logic of "planned births for already existing souls", all those aborted pregnancies (natural or otherwise) were never planned to actually result in an actual birth.

Right?

I think that God is aware of all the babies that will miscarry or be aborted. Just as he is aware of everyone else that will eventually die.

PS. All babies are eventually born someway whether dead or alive. The mother's body never just absorbs them. They don't disappear. They are born.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Because the personality never changes in a well brain

I'ld say that the fact that brain state can alter a personality, means that personality in general is determined by the brain.

I think that the personality and soul are connected somehow

Why?

Again, just my opinion and based on my own observations as a nurse.

So when's the last time that you "observed" a soul?

And dead just means the biological function of a body is no longer functioning. If there is a non-biological aspect to the human, it may live on.

And if the Eiffel Tower is small enough, I could fit it in my back pocket.

I believe this is the soul...and our personality is contained in our soul.

I hear a lot "I believe..." which are then "supported" by bare claims.

Do you understand why I don't find any of this even remotely convincing?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think that God is aware of all the babies that will miscarry or be aborted. Just as he is aware of everyone else that will eventually die.

PS. All babies are eventually born someway whether dead or alive. The mother's body never just absorbs them. They don't disappear. They are born.

The claim about souls entering at birth, was specifically about a birth of an alive baby. It was even mentioned specifically that the soul enters "with the first breath of air".

 

[AV1611VET]

I'ld say that the fact that brain state can alter a personality, means that personality in general is determined by the brain.

In tripartitism, the soul resides in the heart; whereas the brain is considered a part of the body.

Why?

Because the soul is in charge of the mind, the will, and the emotions.

So when's the last time that you "observed" a soul?

When I looked in the mirror. A [complete] person is also referred to as a "soul."

And if the Eiffel Tower is small enough, I could fit it in my back pocket.

That would be a neat trick, seeing as the Eiffel Tower would still weigh 7300 tons.

I hear a lot "I believe..." which are then "supported" by bare claims.

Yup ... it's called FAITH.

Do you understand why I don't find any of this even remotely convincing?

Yes.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

In tripartitism, the soul resides in the heart

Where exactly?
Last time I checked, the heart is a muscle that pumps blood.

My son actually just had a checkup at the cardiologist. I watched the cute little dude's heart on the monitor. All I saw was a muscle, pumping blood.

; whereas the brain is considered a part of the body.

And the heart isn't?

Because the soul is in charge of the mind, the will, and the emotions.

Nice claim.
Only problem is that, just like with the personality, all the available evidence points to the physical brain being responsible for those things.

When I looked in the mirror.

I just looked in a mirror. All I saw was my physical body.

A [complete] person is also referred to as a "soul."

So a person that is missing a limb, isn't refered to as a "soul"?

That would be a neat trick, seeing as the Eiffel Tower would still weigh 7300 tons.

How do you know? Did you weigh it?

Yup ... it's called FAITH

Indeed. And it's not a pathway to truth.

 

[Radrook]

There is a film called the Seventh Sign where God is described as having a place in heaven called the Guf where he keeps souls ready to be stuffed into humans at conception.

Is the "Guf" a real place?

The Guf was not made up for this movie. In Jewish mysticism, the Guf is the Hall of Souls, located in the Seventh Heaven. Every human soul is said to emanate from the Guf. The Talmud teaches that the Messiah will not come until the Guf is emptied of all its souls, which is the basic premise for The Seventh Sign.
The Seventh Sign (1988) - FAQ

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... Make the brain well again, and the personality goes back...unless there is a psychological change and then I think that the soul may just grow or become jaded.

So the personality never changes... unless the personality changes?

If there is a non-biological aspect to the human, it may live on. I believe this is the soul...and our personality is contained in our soul.

There is a social aspect that lives on - eloquently expressed by Rob Montgomery — 'The people you love become ghosts inside of you, and like this you keep them alive.'

It slowly fades, like all other aspects of you, dispersing back into the environment. You could call it a soul, but it's temporary.

Humans have a strong drive for self-preservation that can lead to wishful thinking and denial - as Woody Allen said, "I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment."

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

In tripartitism, the soul resides in the heart;

So how do they feel about heart transplants? Does the soul swap residences like some kind of ethereal hermit crab? - or is it binned with the old heart?