If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Which came first belief or doubt? Isn't doubt just lack of belief?

Were you born to doubt or were you born to believe?

If, instead you say you were born to learn, well someone had to show you that you can learn, meaning you had to believe you could learn before you learned anything.

Even after all evidence is presented to me, I still have to believe that the evidence represents absolute truth, simply because my subjective mind can't comprehend absolute truth nor can I comprehend absolute objective evidence. Show me absolute objective evidence and I'll still have to use my subjective brain to believe it's actually there.

You were born to love and be loved.

You did not start to learn by first starting to believe. You only learned about believing and doubting later, after learning many things first. You can learn to have doubt where appropriate.

You don't have to comprehend absolute truth in order to believe things. You can assume lots of things are reasonable to believe based on the reasonable evidence we have for them. You can change your mind in the light of subsequent evidence.

 

[Chriliman]

You were born to love and be loved.

You did not start to learn by first starting to believe. You only learned about believing and doubting later, after learning many things first. You can learn to have doubt where appropriate.

You don't have to comprehend absolute truth in order to believe things. You can assume lots of things are reasonable to believe based on the reasonable evidence we have for them. You can change your mind in the light of subsequent evidence.

I believe I was born a sinner, but I did not realize the extent of my sin until I believed in the truth, which is Jesus Christ. I now know the full extent of my sin and how to defeat it through the power of Jesus Christ. I didn't say you have to comprehend absolute truth to believe something, I said absolute truth is incomprehensible by our subjective minds and thus requires belief. Yes, you can believe anything, but that "anything" you believe isn't necessarily the absolute truth about life. What do you believe the absolute truth is about life?

 

[Chriliman]

If I may... It's more like this: God has our souls in a jar, and he created a virtual reality where we have a chance to see him for what he is, and if we can appreciate that...then he will allow us to be born (again) into the "real" world beyond this virtual non-existence. Until then...no one is actually alive and therefore can not die (like so many virtual cartoon characters bleeding virtual blood and dying in their heartfelt, but unreal existence). No actual bloodshed, no actual cruelty, no actual death. Pretty cool!

This is an interesting view. How do you explain satan and evil? How do you explain these verses in Revelation?

Revelation 20:10
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

14 "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Based on your beliefs, will there be eternal torment, if so for who? If there is no real death because life as we know it is an illusion, then why does the Bible say there will be a second death?

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I believe I was born a sinner, but I did not realize the extent of my sin until I believed in the truth, which is Jesus Christ. I now know the full extent of my sin and how to defeat it through the power of Jesus Christ. I didn't say you have to comprehend absolute truth to believe something, I said absolute truth is incomprehensible by our subjective minds and thus requires belief. Yes, you can believe anything, but that "anything" you believe isn't necessarily the absolute truth about life. What do you believe the absolute truth is about life?

In the Sunday School class teach, this past Sunday, I pointed out how the bible over and over talks about our sin. I pointed out how that rankled me, how if I were writing the Bible, I wouldn't write it that way . . . and then I asked them why God did that in His word. They all agreed it was because we needed to be reminded of our sin.

So I continued to repeat to them what our Bible says about sin. And that we are supposed to stay away from it.

The absolute truth about life? I don't know if I can be said to have that. How about I believe that God is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. How about that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

 

[SkyWriting]

I accept it as a cultural creation myth. One of tho....

So, tell us what the message is.
Please boil down the meaning for the other 999
you've written down while your at it.

 

[paulm50]

Were you born to doubt or were you born to believe?

If, instead you say you were born to learn, well someone had to show you that you can learn, meaning you had to believe you could learn before you learned anything.

Even after all evidence is presented to me, I still have to believe that the evidence represents absolute truth, simply because my subjective mind can't comprehend absolute truth nor can I comprehend absolute objective evidence. Show me absolute objective evidence and I'll still have to use my subjective brain to believe it's actually there.

You talk yourself into believing the absurd. By bending twisting or completely ignoring the obvious.

In science there is no such thing as the absolute truth, they continually learn because there are new things to discover. You do believe in absolute truth, because for you we stopped learning 3,000 years ago.

Absolute objective evidence of what? That the bible is wrong. That's easy, that we don't really know what kicked it all off? We are still learning that one, what we do know is it has nothing to do with Genesis.

 

[Chriliman]

In the Sunday School class teach, this past Sunday, I pointed out how the bible over and over talks about our sin. I pointed out how that rankled me, how if I were writing the Bible, I wouldn't write it that way . . . and then I asked them why God did that in His word. They all agreed it was because we needed to be reminded of our sin.

So I continued to repeat to them what our Bible says about sin. And that we are supposed to stay away from it.

The absolute truth about life? I don't know if I can be said to have that. How about I believe that God is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him. How about that Jesus is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

Amen brother in Christ! God bless!

 

[Chriliman]

You talk yourself into believing the absurd. By bending twisting or completely ignoring the obvious.

In science there is no such thing as the absolute truth, they continually learn because there are new things to discover. You do believe in absolute truth, because for you we stopped learning 3,000 years ago.

Absolute objective evidence of what? That the bible is wrong. That's easy, that we don't really know what kicked it all off? We are still learning that one, what we do know is it has nothing to do with Genesis.

So if God does not exist then science will continue into eternity trying to get to the absolute truth about life and never getting there. Go read "the last question" by Isaac Asimov and see what could possibly happen at the end of all our questioning.

 

[paulm50]

Genesis 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.

1 In the beginning, when God created the universe,2 the earth was formless and desolate. The raging ocean that covered everything was engulfed in total darkness, and the Spirit of God was moving over the water. 3 A) Then God commanded, “Let there be light”—and light appeared. 4 God was pleased with what he saw. Then he separated the light from the darkness, 5 and he named the light “Day” and the darkness “Night.” Evening passed and morning came—that was the first day.
There was no water at the beginning of the Earth's life. The Earth had a form, rather than being desolate it was a burning mass before it cooled down.

“Let the earth produce all kinds of plants, those that bear grain and those that bear fruit” Wrong

"So God made the two larger lights, the sun to rule over the day and the moon to rule over the night; he also made the stars." Wrong.

“Let the water be filled with many kinds of living beings, and let the air be filled with birds.” Wrong.

“Let the earth produce all kinds of animal life: domestic and wild, large and small”—and it was done." Wrong.

“And now we will make human beings; they will be like us and resemble us. They will have power over the fish, the birds, and all animals, domestic and wild, large and small.” Wrong.

“Have many children, so that your descendants will live all over the earth and bring it under their control. I am putting you in charge of the fish, the birds, and all the wild animals. 29 I have provided all kinds of grain and all kinds of fruit for you to eat; 30 but for all the wild animals and for all the birds I have provided grass and leafy plants for food”—and it was done." Very Wrong.

Google the evidence.

I mostly just read the Bible. I do not trust people to tell me what the bible says. As far as Pangaea most of what know is from a study of the ghosts ranch dinosaurs in new mexico. This is where creation first grew teeth and began to devour or destroy itself. Christians believe this was the work of Satan to get God's creation to destroy itself. That is why he tempted Eve later on in the garden to rebellion against God.

Dinosaur bones are everywhere, China is revealing a lot now. You can find them in a lump of coal.

Science is very strict about the diet we are to eat if we wanna be healthy and PBS does all they can to promote that teaching. I believe we are to follow all of the teachings of the bible. Esp if we take our priesthood serious.

You didn't answer my question.

If I may... It's more like this: God has our souls in a jar, and he created a virtual reality where we have a chance to see him for what he is, and if we can appreciate that...then he will allow us to be born (again) into the "real" world beyond this virtual non-existence. Until then...no one is actually alive and therefore can not die (like so many virtual cartoon characters bleeding virtual blood and dying in their heartfelt, but unreal existence). No actual bloodshed, no actual cruelty, no actual death. Pretty cool!

Prove it.

 

[paulm50]

So if God does not exist then science will continue into eternity trying to get to the absolute truth about life and never getting there. Go read "the last question" by Isaac Asimov and see what could possibly happen at the end of all our questioning.

Yes that's the beauty of our brains, they never stop wanting more.

Read Harry Potter and the dangers of wizard and witches. They're not real, it's why it's called fiction.

 

[paulm50]

With so many factual mistakes in the Genesis story, how can people insist it's true?

An often heard excuse is that it was made simpler, by god or the writers. So the people of the time would understand it. As they were brainwashed into accepting anything a priest told them, that doesn't ring true. The Earth was due to a big explosion in space, is a fine way to explain it. As it the Earth was a flaming ball, the moon was a part of the Earth the sun came first, and so on. These were primitive people who believed what they were told. Telling them the true sequence would be easy. If the tellers knew.

Some of the story was untrue to there knowledge then. Read it and spot the mistakes.

 

[Chriliman]

With so many factual mistakes in the Genesis story, how can people insist it's true?

An often heard excuse is that it was made simpler, by god or the writers. So the people of the time would understand it. As they were brainwashed into accepting anything a priest told them, that doesn't ring true. The Earth was due to a big explosion in space, is a fine way to explain it. As it the Earth was a flaming ball, the moon was a part of the Earth the sun came first, and so on. These were primitive people who believed what they were told. Telling them the true sequence would be easy. If the tellers knew.

Some of the story was untrue to there knowledge then. Read it and spot the mistakes.

I believe it's true that God authored the story in Genesis in order to fulfill his will. If you don't believe God has a will and that His will WILL be fulfilled then this is your answer as to why you're so confused about Genesis. You don't believe in God's will so how could you ever understand it?

If you want to see truth, stop focusing so much on Genesis, just accept that it's there for a purpose. Right now it's purpose is to cause you to stumble and hopefully learn something from all this. For now, can we agree to disagree?

Continue searching for truth, but don't focus so much on Genesis, try to look at the Bible as whole, authored by a God who has far more understanding than you do. If you believe in God you must agree with this, if you don't agree then why claim to believe in God? If you don't believe in God, then why attack Genesis in the first place? Do you really think you can control what others believe by attacking what they believe?

 

[paulm50]

I believe it's true that God authored the story in Genesis in order to fulfill his will. If you don't believe God has a will and that His will WILL be fulfilled then this is your answer as to why you're so confused about Genesis. You don't believe in God's will so how could you ever understand it?

If you want to see truth, stop focusing so much on Genesis, just accept that it's there for a purpose. Right now it's purpose is to cause you to stumble and hopefully learn something from all this. For now, can we agree to disagree?

Continue searching for truth, but don't focus so much on Genesis, try to look at the Bible as whole, authored by a God who has far more understanding than you do. If you believe in God you must agree with this, if you don't agree then why claim to believe in God? If you don't believe in God, then why attack Genesis in the first place? Do you really think you can control what others believe by attacking what they believe?

So you accept god lied to fulfill his will. So given the world is designed to kill us. What is that will and purpose?

Right now it's you who have stumbled from the truth, science shows it clearly and repeatedly.

Yes I do look to the bible to give me good rules to live my life by. To do so, I have to ignore much of what's written. And that's my point, bibles were written by men with ulterior motives. They led to the indiscriminate killings of billions, look up all the killing and see the hands of men clutching a bible. Anti abortionists killing doctors, giving Israel back to the Jews and their crimes against fellow people, Hitler killing a group who because of some book refused to integrate and today IS killing another group of Muslims. All because of what books say.

Given the evidence of what the bible has caused from billions of deaths for 3600 years. So what is gods will and purpose?

I believe it was written by men whose purpose was to control and force people to kill others. And to explain why the Earth can find so many ways to kill us.

Are these passages from the bible, god's or men's will.

Leviticus 25:44-46
Exodus 21:2-6
Ephesians 6:5
1 Timothy 6:1-2
Luke 12:47-48
Mark 6:11
2 John 1:10
Colossians 2:8 This one is to stop people learning.
John 5:19

If you believe god wrote the bible, he's the guilty one.

 

[joshua 1 9]

You were born to love and be loved.

Everyone talks about the importance of diet and exercise. Yet the most important is to love and be loved. The enemy seeks to isolate and divide to conquer.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So given the world is designed to kill us. What is that will and purpose?

I did this once but we can go over it again. Satan rebelled against God and was thrown down to the earth. He responded by working to get God's creation to destroy itself. God has a plan of redemption and restoration for this earth. I can give you more detail but this is the basic foundation of what Christians believe. Science teaches us that our diet and what we eat is the leading cause of death. Yet there is healthy food available. It is our choice if we wanna be healthy. Most people believe God gives us freedom of choice to choose. In the end everyone will be accountable for their choices.

 

[Loudmouth]

I did this once but we can go over it again. Satan rebelled against God and was thrown down to the earth. He responded by working to get God's creation to destroy itself. God has a plan of redemption and restoration for this earth. I can give you more detail but this is the basic foundation of what Christians believe. Science teaches us that our diet and what we eat is the leading cause of death. Yet there is healthy food available. It is our choice if we wanna be healthy. Most people believe God gives us freedom of choice to choose. In the end everyone will be accountable for their choices.

We aren't accountable now? We aren't held accountable by our friends, family, and community?

 

[Chriliman]

So you accept god lied to fulfill his will. So given the world is designed to kill us. What is that will and purpose?

No, I accept that he has a will and purpose that is not fully understood yet. His will and purpose is to love us and be loved by us.

Right now it's you who have stumbled from the truth, science shows it clearly and repeatedly.

Honestly, I think we are all stumbling to some degree, simply because none of us know the absolute truth yet. We have to choose to believe in something and I choose to believe in Jesus. Persecute me all you want, I'm still powered by a love that is beyond me and enables me to love even through persecution.

Yes I do look to the bible to give me good rules to live my life by. To do so, I have to ignore much of what's written. And that's my point, bibles were written by men with ulterior motives. They led to the indiscriminate killings of billions, look up all the killing and see the hands of men clutching a bible. Anti abortionists killing doctors, giving Israel back to the Jews and their crimes against fellow people, Hitler killing a group who because of some book refused to integrate and today IS killing another group of Muslims. All because of what books say.

You shouldn't pick and choose what to believe from the Bible when it clearly says what the two most important rules to live by are. If you live by the two most important commandments, the rest will make sense to you. If you don't, then the Bible makes 0 sense. You're either a full believer in Christ or you're not, there is no grey area, which is exactly where you're trying to sit.

Luke 11:23
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

Problem is you'll choose to ignore this verse and accept the ones that suit your beliefs.

So what is gods will and purpose?

It's simple, His will and purpose is to love us and be loved by us. He's given free will to his creation in order to receive true love from his creation. Problem with free will is that it's free, free to choose a will opposite of God's sovereign perfect will and this is where evil comes in, which God must and has destroyed. Again, you won't understand until you become a true believer in Christ.

Choose to believe and you will see, choose not to believe and you won't see. Simple.

 

[paulm50]

I did this once but we can go over it again. Satan rebelled against God and was thrown down to the earth. He responded by working to get God's creation to destroy itself. God has a plan of redemption and restoration for this earth. I can give you more detail but this is the basic foundation of what Christians believe. Science teaches us that our diet and what we eat is the leading cause of death. Yet there is healthy food available. It is our choice if we wanna be healthy. Most people believe God gives us freedom of choice to choose. In the end everyone will be accountable for their choices.

So Satan is more powerful than god. And god is still working on his plan.

Actually that's so wrong I wonder why you believe it. The world was created like this from the start.

I asked if you follow the laws of the bible to the letter. You not we and nor science. Do you eat shellfish? A very important part of our diet, not eating fat is impossible, not wearing clothes of two cloths is hard.

The bible god takes freedom of choice away. I don't believe about us being accountable, you do. I'm happier. Because I don't worry I may not make the grade by ignoring the laws. When I die, I'm dead there's nothing.

 

[HitchSlap]

So, tell us what the message is.
Please boil down the meaning for the other 999
you've written down while your at it.

Meaning: our god/s created everything and this is how he did it.

 

[paulm50]

No, I accept that he has a will and purpose that is not fully understood yet. His will and purpose is to love us and be loved by us.

So what part of his will is to keep killing us?

Honestly, I think we are all stumbling to some degree, simply because none of us know the absolute truth yet. We have to choose to believe in something and I choose to believe in Jesus. Persecute me all you want, I'm still powered by a love that is beyond me and enables me to love even through persecution.

We who believe in science are trying to learn more truth.

You shouldn't pick and choose what to believe from the Bible when it clearly says what the two most important rules to live by are. If you live by the two most important commandments, the rest will make sense to you. If you don't, then the Bible makes 0 sense. You're either a full believer in Christ or you're not, there is no grey area, which is exactly where you're trying to sit.

You have to pick and choose, or you end up doing evil things or given permission to do them.

Luke 11:23
"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters."

Problem is you'll choose to ignore this verse and accept the ones that suit your beliefs.

And the bible says you should kill those against it. How many have you killed?

It's simple, His will and purpose is to love us and be loved by us. He's given free will to his creation in order to receive true love from his creation. Problem with free will is that it's free, free to choose a will opposite of God's sovereign perfect will and this is where evil comes in, which God must and has destroyed. Again, you won't understand until you become a true believer in Christ.

Choose to believe and you will see, choose not to believe and you won't see. Simple.

He has a strange way of showing it by killing so many of us. Best to go Joshua's route and claim Satan does it and god can't stop him. Free will, god given and god punishes us for using it.

Belief as deep as yours, means I have to stop using the power of the brain I was given, nature or god. That denies him.

You don't see that the bible is man made, I can prove over and over with the bible that it was made by men for their own power. It allows murder, slavery, beating wives, children, executions for minor crimes like thinking then saying. Not once but repeatedly, because it's about controlling people them without thinking.