If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

[paulm50]

But if that is the case he doesn't know it . . . because if he knew it was wrong, it wouldn't be his interpretation of the science. Same goes for one's interpretation of the Bible.

Merlin is assuming science comes from one book, and has no evidence to back it up. And even when presented with evidence it's wrong. Scientists won't stick to the theory they had 3,000 years ago.

Science is a process continually changing, up grading, going back and confirming or changing. Never afraid to say they have learnt something new, never afraid to use new knowledge to improve it's understanding.

Recently we have found planets that could contain life, we are filling in the blanks spaces of how we all progressed from fish in the sea, how Homo Sapiens walked out of Africa, Homo Ergaster, then Homo Erectus, them us. The bible denies their existence and Neanderthals. Because Bronze Age Man in the Middle East had no idea what was happening outside their small corner of the world. Even something like a plague of locusts was an act of their god.

 

[paulm50]

God CANNOT lie. We are still in HIS time and we are STILL seeing prophecies being fulfilled today

Can you point out a few please.

 

[Chriliman]

Yes it tells me to ask questions and check the answers to see if they're true.

It tells me not to ask questions and accept whatever I'm told without question.

Good advice. You should think of it as well. If there is a god and the bible is full of errors, is it the book we should be guided by?

As Peter says False Prophets are everywhere. So research how inaccurate the bible is and question if the writers wer in touch with god.

Let me speak from my human side and say I once believed the Bible contains lies and this was my logic then:

If satan is in the Bible then evil must be in the Bible and if evil is in the Bible then what's stopping deception from being in the Bible?

Then the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to me and the truth is that evil is within us and it's this evil within us that uses the Bible to lie to us. This is why the Bible can be misinterpreted so often, even when the person interpreting may have good intentions. The fact that they have good intentions does not mean they aren't being blinded.

I have since confessed my sin of thinking their is deception in the Bible and I'm now at peace thanks to God's grace.

Think about it, would it make more sense for evil to be within us and it's this evil within us that uses the Bible in order to lie to us, or would it make more sense for God's word to actually contain deception and lies? I think the answer is obvious.

If you think it's possible for God's word to contain deception and lies, then you're essentially calling God a liar, when in fact it's satan who is the father of lies.

John 8:44
"You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."

Don't believe his lies, fight them with the truth that's given to you through the Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 2:13
"And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe."

The Bible itself tells us that it is not from human words, but from God Himself.

Hebrews 4:12
"For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart"

Use God's word to cut to the depths of your heart and allow God to teach you His ways, then you'll be prepared to use it to cut to the depths of other's hearts.

Romans 2:15
"They demonstrate that God's law is written in their hearts, for their own conscience and thoughts either accuse them or tell them they are doing right."

God has written his truth on my heart and so I speak it. My conscience accuses me of my sins and I confess. My conscience also tells me I'm doing right and living for God.

 

[paulm50]

Let me speak from my human side and say I once believed the Bible contains lies and this was my logic then:

If satan is in the Bible then evil must be in the Bible and if evil is in the Bible then what's stopping deception from being in the Bible?

Then the Holy Spirit revealed the truth to me and the truth is that evil is within us and it's this evil within us that uses the Bible to lie to us. This is why the Bible can be misinterpreted so often, even when the person interpreting may have good intentions. The fact that they have good intentions does not mean they aren't being blinded.

I stopped there because unless you're not looking at the problem, or refusing to see it. There's no point going on.

Who created Satan, why is he more or as powerful than/as god?

If evil is within us, and in the bible, Satan is to strong. Why do people believe in a book with so many evil things?

There are many parts that are downright evil, and they state it very plainly.

People with bad intentions will and have used the bible to do very evil things.

 

[KWCrazy]

We live in an interesting world;
Where someone professes to be a Christian yet calls Christ's work a failure and a Bible a book of myths;
Where someone creates a thread and asks whether he could still be a Christian and not believe the Bible;
Where anyone who believes in the word of God is considered poorly educated and stupid;
Where the theories of scientists are considered to be more accurate than the testimony of God;
Where a Christian forum is overrun with people who come only to attack Christianity and ridicule the Bible.

I understand that the Bible is old; that God is old; that belief in God gets diminished as we are increasing generations from witnessing His great miracles. Now the study of the rocks is given more credence than the word of He who created the rocks. Men seek wisdom in the creation and ignore the infinite intelligence of the Creator. What happens when they discover that science is wrong; that we do not live in a world governed by physical laws but rather God's laws; that the heavens and earth will pass away at His discretion; that it really IS appointed unto each of us once to die and after that the judgment?

The commonality that all who deny the accuracy of the creation account is that they cannot substantiate anything they believe in the Scriptures. Their belief is entirely man-made; steeped in rejection of the word not a greater understanding of it. When asked for supporting evidence they run to science; as if somehow their teacher understood more than their Lord. They can never support their belief in the Word, because the Word proclaims the glory of God. They accuse God of being deceptive because even though He carefully explained how He created the world that explanation doesn't fit what they've chosen to believe. Rather than to accept that they may be wrong, they insist God is wrong or that the men who wrote Genesis were wrong.

How blind can some be?

Are there any miracles that conform to natural law? Can you really make an ax head float, walk on water, turn water into wine, feed thousands with very little food and have more leftover than when you started, raise the dead or anything else in the Scriptures? Either the Bible is a book of lies or the laws of nature have no restriction over the God which created them. To say that God is real and His son is real, but everything Jesus ever said was a lie simply doesn't conform to any interpretation of Christianity I ever learned. There simply is no support for half believing. Without question the Bible states that Adam was created from the dust of the earth; that he did not evolve from anything. This is the word of God, and the word of God is the ultimate truth in the universe. All else remains the claims and heresies of man.

It is not with inferior knowledge that we embrace the words of the Creator, but with a greater knowledge and a greater understanding that our God is the Lord. That is truth; embrace it or deny it.

 

[paulm50]

Yes we live in an interesting world.
Where people proclaim to follow the bible to the letter. And don't kill those who break it's laws.

St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12, in which the saint says: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

1 Samuel 15:3: "This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "

Psalm 137, which celebrates this terrible revenge: "Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Romans 1:27, "In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error."

Ephesians 5:22, "Wives, submit to you husbands as to the Lord";

1 Peter 2:18: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

(Judges 19:25-28) “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.”

I assume Rider99 you keep all these commands, and all the others. Some of us edit the bible because it's old and a lot of it was written by cruel men.

Jesus did say we have to keep to the old laws.

 

[Chriliman]

Yes we live in an interesting world.
Where people proclaim to follow the bible to the letter. And don't kill those who break it's laws.

St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12, in which the saint says: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

1 Samuel 15:3: "This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "

Psalm 137, which celebrates this terrible revenge: "Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Romans 1:27, "In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error."

Ephesians 5:22, "Wives, submit to you husbands as to the Lord";

1 Peter 2:18: "Slaves, submit yourselves to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the cruel."

“Do not allow a sorceress to live.” (Exodus 22:18)

(Judges 19:25-28) “So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight. When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. He said to her, ‘Get up; let’s go.’ But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.”

I assume Rider99 you keep all these commands, and all the others. Some of us edit the bible because it's old and a lot of it was written by cruel men.

Jesus did say we have to keep to the old laws.

Do these statements make sense to you?

Those who think with their mind that they know truth, are the closest to destruction.

Those who have the Truth in their heart, know that the Truth has destroyed their destruction and this gives them hope and faith to persevere.

What do you think the Truth is?

 

[KWCrazy]

To the unsaved, the Bible makes no sense.

St Paul's advice in 1 Timothy 2:12, in which the saint says: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent."

And good advice that was. They lived in an agrarian society where much of their life was concerned with survival. Each had roles. The man was the head of the household and was 100% responsible for the health and safety of the family. There weren't many jobs for women or ways in which they could support themselves. For a woman who had no responsibility for her own safety or welfare to teach a man who had that responsibility would put her in authority over him. That would be disruptive in many ways. Her role was to teach the children and to be her husband's helper.

1 Samuel 15:3: "This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "

Great advice; destroy the enemy but do not take the spoils of war. Israel was constantly at war with its enemies. They survived by being strong enough to destroy them. By not enriching themselves they showed obedience to God and separated themselves from the bandits.

Psalm 137, which celebrates this terrible revenge: "Happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us / He who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks."

Let's try presenting this in context.
7 Remember, LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried, “tear it down to its foundations!” 8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. 9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
This is a lament for Jerusalem after Babylon invaded it and destroyed it. It helps to actually know what you're talking about.

Romans 1:27, "In the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error."

The wages of sin are death. What part of that is unclear? Homosexuality is a sin. Homosexuals are sinners. They receive the penalty for their sin just as a liar or a thief will.

Ephesians 5:22, "Wives, submit to you husbands as to the Lord";

Great advice!
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Question. Do you love your wife as much as the Lord loves the church?

I don't have time for the rest right now. Clearly you are only spewing the talking points of non-believers. Try actually studying these things in context and maybe you might learn about them.

 

[paulm50]

To the unsaved, the Bible makes no sense.


And good advice that was. They lived in an agrarian society where much of their life was concerned with survival. Each had roles. The man was the head of the household and was 100% responsible for the health and safety of the family. There weren't many jobs for women or ways in which they could support themselves. For a woman who had no responsibility for her own safety or welfare to teach a man who had that responsibility would put her in authority over him. That would be disruptive in many ways. Her role was to teach the children and to be her husband's helper.

Great advice; destroy the enemy but do not take the spoils of war. Israel was constantly at war with its enemies. They survived by being strong enough to destroy them. By not enriching themselves they showed obedience to God and separated themselves from the bandits.

Let's try presenting this in context.
7 Remember, LORD, what the Edomites did on the day Jerusalem fell. “Tear it down,” they cried, “tear it down to its foundations!” 8 Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is the one who repays you according to what you have done to us. 9 Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.
This is a lament for Jerusalem after Babylon invaded it and destroyed it. It helps to actually know what you're talking about.

The wages of sin are death. What part of that is unclear? Homosexuality is a sin. Homosexuals are sinners. They receive the penalty for their sin just as a liar or a thief will.

Great advice!
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. 25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish. 28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Question. Do you love your wife as much as the Lord loves the church?

I don't have time for the rest right now. Clearly you are only spewing the talking points of non-believers. Try actually studying these things in context and maybe you might learn about them.

So do those rules apply today in a modern world?

If you say yes, I can ask what other laws you keep.

If you say no. You're updating the word of god.

However you make a very valid point. The bible was written for it's time and area. OT was only concerned with keeping the Israelite tribe together in captivity in Babylon and used stories from before when it was under attack, and after when it came under attack. Israel today use it to justify their killing Palestinians with over whelming force and taking the land away from them. And Muslims use their bible to kill other Muslims, and Christians used their bible to kill anyone who got in their way.

So is using the bible to kill homosexuals, sorceresses, witches, eating a cheeseburger, or pork, wearing two different cloths, and follow the bible to keep your wife, and children subservient valid today for you personally?

Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Exodus 21:15 [URL='http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Annotated_Bible/Exodus#Exodus_21:17']Exodus 21:17, Leviticus 20:9 Are good ones for keeping children under control. [/URL]

 

[paulm50]

What do you think the Truth is?

The truth is something I can prove, in my mind. The part of the body we have that makes us superior to the rest of the animal kingdom. The heart is just a pump. It doesn't think or have any opinion.

A lot of the bible truth is something you can't prove and shouldn't question.

 

[Chriliman]

The truth is something I can prove, in my mind. The part of the body we have that makes us superior to the rest of the animal kingdom. The heart is just a pump. It doesn't think or have any opinion.

A lot of the bible truth is something you can't prove and shouldn't question.

I believe when the Bible refers to the "heart" it's refering to the most inner thoughts and emotions of a man, that no one can see except God.

Your answer to what you think the Truth is shows me that you don't have the Truth in your heart...yet.

Because the answer to what is Truth is very simple, it's Jesus Christ. Once you accept this Truth with all your heart, soul and mind, then and only then will you know the Truth and it will set you free.

 

[KWCrazy]

So do those rules apply today in a modern world?

Probably not as much as they should.
With freedom comes responsibility. With responsibility comes stress and today heart disease is a leading cause of death among women. It's not about updating the laws of God, it's about understanding the difference between their culture and ours. Old laws said that pork was unclean. Today we know about trichinosis and how to properly cook meat to avoid contamination. Old laws forbade shellfish. Today we know that many are deathly allergic to shellfish and we have ways to treat those reactions. Homosexuality was forbidden not only because it was an affront to God's plan for mankind, but also because the Israelites needed a constant re-supply of warriors which didn't happen if people didn't reproduce.

The bible was written for it's time and area.

No, it was written for all time. There are lessons to be learned from everything. Were it not for admonitions against unclean things we might not have learned about germs. The brutality of ancient times remind us that we are in a constant fight between good and evil.

Israel today use it to justify their killing Palestinians with over whelming force and taking the land away from them.

Your statement betrays your ignorance of world events.
The "Palistinians" never owned Israel. They are refugees because other nations threw them out. Israel is the ancestral home of Jewish people and was indisputably owned by Great Britain. After WWII, Britain gave the land to create a nation state for the Jews. This was done in 1948. Israel welcomed the Arabs to live among them, and Arabs still comprise about about 20% of Israel's citizens. Immediately, Five Arab nations attacked Israel. Israel defeated them and doubled its size. Today in Israel Jews and Arabs live in peace, surrounded by enemies who want to exterminate them.

And Muslims use their bible to kill other Muslims,

Muslims follow a false religion and will never enter the kingdom of God.

and Christians used their bible to kill anyone who got in their way.

Using the name of the Lord in vain is the one sin for which there is no absolution. Doing evil in the name of the Lord has its own consequence.

So is using the bible to kill homosexuals, sorceresses, witches,

Who did Jesus say we should kill?
Jesus ushered in the new Covenant by which man is saved through grace. You don't have to sacrifice a lamb any more.
Perhaps you should invest your time learning what the Bible says instead of trying to find quotes you can use out of context.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

I trust the Bible from the very first verse and take it as literal history. Otherwise, it means God used the cruel process of evolution to bring His creation to where it is now. . . .

Evolution theory postulates no more cruelty than what is actually going on right now. Animals get sick and die, are hunted down and die, are born with defects and die. If that doesn't happen, they grow old and die. You will not get God out of the problem of evil by getting rid of evolution.

 

[Chriliman]

Muslims follow a false religion and will never enter the kingdom of God.

I agree with everything you've said, except this. If a person is Muslim and still alive, there is still a chance they could be converted to Christianity. We serve a God who can achieve the impossible. If someone is alive today on this earth, I would never consider them not able to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, let God decide who enters and who doesn't.

 

[paulm50]

I believe when the Bible refers to the "heart" it's refering to the most inner thoughts and emotions of a man, that no one can see except God.

Your answer to what you think the Truth is shows me that you don't have the Truth in your heart...yet.

Because the answer to what is Truth is very simple, it's Jesus Christ. Once you accept this Truth with all your heart, soul and mind, then and only then will you know the Truth and it will set you free.

My inner most thoughts are based on knowledge, not emotions based on the lack of knowledge.

There are so many errors in the Bible, like Jesus prophecies that weren't fulfilled.

Jesus unfulfilled messianic prophecies.

Jesus and messianic prophecy.

He didn’t fulfill all the prophecies when He was here?

The end will come within the lifetime of Jesus's listeners.

Then there Jesus saying we should keep the old laws, and people like Rider don't. He says it's OK to eat pork, shellfish and maybe cheeseburgers. The old laws are clear, eating them is punishable by death. There was no by pass for modern techniques. He like everyone picks, chooses and bends the words he holds sacred.

So many natural disasters that were put down to god. We now know what caused them, Stone and Bronze Age man didn't.

And a simple puzzle. Who created satan, if god is supreme, why doesn't he destroy satan. Or is satan as powerful as god. Or did god create satan to scare us. Or did man create satan to scare us?

For me the bible is two books written for their time by men with a political motive. Exile in Babylon and Constantine. The purpose both times was clear, to keep the people together. And to ban things that weren't good in those times and a few things that made no difference, like wearing clothes of two cloths.

There are great things to be praised, thou shalt not kill, not even Gays and murderers. One should be accepted, the latter in prison under hard labour until they die. Thou shalt not covet what belongs to others, whatever thin excuse one can find, and more.

Jesus had a message of kindness mostly and that's how I live my life. I believe he existed, just not the son of god.

I can believe in the fundamental message of Christianity, and know how the world and everything on it has reached this stage. I just question when I'm told what I have to or should believe in. sometimes it's right and sometimes the messenger would prefer I don't ask questions. Just do as he tells me.

If one believes god created man, he created us as we are. Open to temptation, to kill, to steal, and most importantly to think for ourselves, ask questions and seek out new knowledge. Not to be like sheep and led. Think hard on that one, a man can still be very good and not believe the bible word for word.

 

[paulm50]

We serve a God who can achieve the impossible.

Can or did?

Examples please.

 

[KWCrazy]

I agree with everything you've said, except this. If a person is Muslim and still alive, there is still a chance they could be converted to Christianity.

That part is true. Of course, they would be killed. Discovering the Lord was such a threat that the false prophet commanded that anyone who converts be killed. If they do not convert, however, they are lost because nobody comes to the Father but through the Son.

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

In order to "literally" interpret anything in the Bible and expect truth to be revealed you must have the Holy Spirit. God himself determines who has the Holy Spirit. A sure way to receive the Holy Spirit is to believe in Jesus with all your heart, soul and mind. Many people understand the concept of Jesus with their minds, but not their heart or soul. You cannot expect to interpret the Bible in any meaningful way using only your mind.

You cannot expect to interpret the Bible in any meaningful way UNLESS you use your mind and UNLESS you can explain why you do so to others. If you can't explain the biblical interpretation it isn't a real biblical interpretation, its your own ideas.

 

[paulm50]

That part is true. Of course, they would be killed. Discovering the Lord was such a threat that the false prophet commanded that anyone who converts be killed. If they do not convert, however, they are lost because nobody comes to the Father but through the Son.

If god is supreme, why does he put false prophets, satan, temptations everywhere? Even inside our body are temptations he made, that make us sin.

He either wants to torment us, or not so powerful, or a figment of imagination.

And if Adam came first, why are all foetuses female at the start? Which is why men have nipples.

 

[ScottA]

So I pray, he doesn't give me the answer then. He gives it in a way I don't want it, or when I want it. So how do I know he answered?

So god is in control, so responsible for all the deaths in his name.

But I will not stray from the word of god, as soon as someone proves it is his word and not the word of people killing in his name.



Science is becoming less limited by the day. The science of 1,000 BC was more like being in a shoe box than a room. Today tat room is a huge stadium that's getting bigger by the day. so why should we go back to only what people knew in 1,000 BC that today there's so much visual proof it's wrong?

"witnesses to it all throughout history...but you're not listening. You got your fingers in your ears. Meanwhile, you go on with your noses pressed inward making claims of superior knowledge. You know SO LITTLE! "

I assume you're talking about people who believe in the bible word word.

Give a man enough rope and he will hang himself on it.

No, you have missed the analogy completely. The point is that science is a very little part of something infinitely bigger. In other words, scientific evidence is finite and doesn't stack up to what is available if you have access to the greater amount of infinite information that exists outside of the realm of science. Let me put it this way: If you yourself stay inside/indoors your whole life, what could you possible know about what is outside? You are the one in the bubble. It's finite, and we are infinite. We can see you, and we are waving and shouting trying to get you to look up from your fascination with your indoor, iphone world, but it's going right on by you. And all you can say, is "That's crazy, check out how cool my phone (my closed-circuit finite world) is!"

You'all need to get out more..