If the beginnings of Genesis aren't literally true, then what way are they true?

[paulm50]

Let me show you how evolution works. All pet dogs started as wolves, we speeded up and channelled the breeds until we had this. That's how easy it is to undo, redo, evolution.

They're not so different from the original wolves, they just look and behave differently. Chemicals involved aren't lifeless, that's the whole point.

DNA carries that massive amount of information, which proves how it all works. And it's proven we can mess around with how it works. Dogs are one small example. A white person and a black person can have a coffee coloured baby. Even two black people can have coffee coloured people or the other way around, if in the DNA is another races DNA.

And yes we can create life. Scientist Craig Venter creates life for first time in laboratory sparking debate about 'playing god'. That's the good thing about science, it keeps learning more. Not stuck in a book written for a Bronze Age audience.

Yes we no longer give god credit for Earthquakes, Volcanos erupting, Famines, Droughts, Floods, Hurricanes, or a simple illness. We blame an imperfect world.

However consider this. If the bible writers were wrong.
"Rom 1:25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen."

Did they exchange what happened for a lie?

Now prove they didn't without repeating words from a 4,000 year old story. That's what the "Creation story" is, it's probably older.

 

[paulm50]

Doesn't it make sense for God to have created us and then try to teach us his truth,

OK tell me the truth, without referring to the bible.

Let's see if you can make sense.

 

[Chriliman]

Let me show you how evolution works. All pet dogs started as wolves, we speeded up and channelled the breeds until we had this. That's how easy it is to undo, redo, evolution.

So based on this, it seems as if we have evolved to such an extent to actually be able to control evolution, right? Somehow, "evolution" having no intelligence behind it has enabled us to have intelligence and be able to control it? How can intelligence come from something that has no intelligence?

Can a painted master piece somehow control how it came to be a master piece? No, a man created the master piece. The man taking much time and effort, put his heart and soul into creating this master piece. He may of had to start from scratch many times while developing the master piece, but in the end it becomes a master piece, because of his efforts, it was nothing the master piece itself did, it was all the man did.

We are the master piece that God is working on. "Evolution" can be thought of as the process by which God has developed His master piece. "Evolution" itself has 0 intelligence, God is the intelligence that has driven us to where we are today. Can you imagine trying to paint a master piece that is constantly denying that you're actually painting it.

You - "I'm going to make you into a beautiful masterpiece, just be patient and know that I'm working"

Masterpiece - "No you're not, I've made myself this way, I don't need you to make me into a masterpiece"

You - "Fine have it your way" and you stop painting...

Wouldn't it be so much easier for God if we were all just physical paintings that couldn't talk. Actually, I believe it is easy for God because He can do the impossible.

And yes we can create life. Scientist Craig Venter creates life for first time in laboratory sparking debate about 'playing god'. That's the good thing about science, it keeps learning more. Not stuck in a book written for a Bronze Age audience.

Okay, we've created artificial life, and this proves that we humans can artificially create life. To me this only supports the belief that real life (not artificial) was created by God. Imagine we give this artificial life billions of years to "evolve", what do you think will eventually happen? Well, given enough time they will be able to question why they exist, right? What kind of questions do you think they'll ask? One obvious one is, why am I here? Some will deny they were created and say their existence was from a random event, others may think they were created by something else. Of the two answers, who's closer to the truth?

Now prove they didn't without repeating words from a 4,000 year old story. That's what the "Creation story" is, it's probably older.

I can't prove anything about what men from 4,000 years ago did for obvious reasons. However, I did just give a good reason to believe God exists, now whether or not you believe this God can communicate with you through the Bible is up to you. I would suggest not blaspheming the very word that God himself has said is His word because your being the masterpiece who is telling it's creator to put the brush down and step away, while you sit unfinished.

 

[ScottA]

How can science be finite when we're learning something every day?

How can the bible be infinite when it stopped being added to 1650 years ago?

Asking a Bronze Age preacher about the universe and how we all got here. Is like asking a 2 year old to fix a jet engine. But it works for some.

Science is finite

How can science be finite when we're learning something every day?

Science is "finite" because it is "within" the greater realm of existence. Because science exists within Time, which is (scientifically) an illusion, it is in fact only a minute part, and actually non-existent by every scientific premise (space, matter, time).

The Bible on the other hand, when it was "finished", was complete (in summary). The scriptures explain that the words we have access to now, are only "part", but we will in the fullness of time, see all. If you put that together with the fact that Time is an illusion (scientifically), then it should be concluded that Time is the very thing that limits us from seeing the whole truth of life. Science therefore, is under the same limitation.

Asking a Bronze Age preacher about the universe and how we all got here... Not sure if you are referring to Jesus. But if you were...would actually be exactly like asking the Creator of the jet engine (and the universe). But, before I just tick you off, you should really, seriously consider just how much anyone "within" ANY school of understanding, would or could know about what is "outside" or "beyond" that level of understanding. And why would anyone turn away from the actual realm of understanding for answers about a completely different area of understanding? Don't you see that, that is asking the wrong people for the right answers...and asking the right people for the right answers, would be more effective?

 

[Chriliman]

The Bible on the other hand, when it was "finished", was complete (in summary). The scriptures explain that the words we have access to now, are only "part", but we will in the fullness of time, see all. If you put that together with the fact that Time is an illusion (scientifically), then it should be concluded that Time is the very thing that limits us from seeing the whole truth of life. Science therefore, is under the same limitation.

This is a very interesting way to think about time in regards to the Bible. Just curious if you actually believe time is an illusion or if you're just saying science claims time is an illusion?

I'll ad this as well, I believe Jesus Christ is the absolute truth and I think you'd probably agree, but how then is there still more truth to be revealed through time if Jesus is the absolute truth? I suppose if one truly believes in Jesus Christ, then and only then will God reveal truth to them through the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for the interesting perspective. I'm excited to see what God has in store for the future!

God Bless!

 

[ScottA]

This is a very interesting way to think about time in regards to the Bible. Just curious if you actually believe time is an illusion or if you're just saying science claims time is an illusion?

I'll ad this as well, I believe Jesus Christ is the absolute truth and I think you'd probably agree, but how then is there still more truth to be revealed through time if Jesus is the absolute truth? I suppose if one truly believes in Jesus Christ, then and only then will God reveal truth to them through the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for the interesting perspective. I'm excited to see what God has in store for the future!

God Bless!

Yes, I don't just believe that Time is an illusion, I know it to be true because God confirms it. He has appropriated this Time/illusion to show the detail of all that He is and has done and where we come in. Then He begins to beat around the bush and tell us of Himself as being the same yesterday, today, and forever. Then He comes right out with it and says, the simple truth is, "I am."

Then you will notice all types of eluding to the timelessness of virtually every part of the overall revealing of Himself, as well as the timing of events: "In that day" "today" is the day of salvation, etc. There is a book about it: Walking Like Einstein.

In the fullness of time, instead of seeing through the glass dimly, we shall see face to face: the Beginning to the End...no time...but as face to face, beginning to end.

It is God's justice that science has discovered the truth about Time. What's really cool? Is that all things happening timelessly...would make a really BIG BANG (the sound of the Arch Angel)! :^)

 

[Chriliman]

Yes, I don't just believe that Time is an illusion, I know it to be true because God confirms it. He has appropriated this Time/illusion to show the detail of all that He is and has done and where we come in. Then He begins to beat around the bush and tell us of Himself as being the same yesterday, today, and forever. Then He comes right out with it and says, the simple truth is, "I am."

Then you will notice all types of eluding to the timelessness of virtually every part of the overall revealing of Himself, as well as the timing of events: "In that day" "today" is the day of salvation, etc. There is a book about it: Walking Like Einstein.

In the fullness of time, instead of seeing through the glass dimly, we shall see face to face: the Beginning to the End...no time...but as face to face, beginning to end.

It is God's justice that science has discovered the truth about Time. What's really cool? Is that all things happening timelessly...would make a really BIG BANG (the sound of the Arch Angel)! :^)

Interesting...I guess I think of "time" as something God created in order to communicate His truth to us. So in essence, He created it for us and it enables Him to communicate so it's a necessity to both sides. Just like He created space and the earth for us to dwell in, I don't believe space and the earth are an illusion do you? I believe God will destroy the earth, space and time as we know it and create a new earth and a new heaven when His will is fulfilled at the end of time. "At the end of time" meaning time as we know it will come to an end. Will God create a new "time" as well. If we consider time as absolute, then it could not absolutely exist and then absolutely not exist, so maybe it is just an illusion because it absolutely does not exist. That's a real mind blower/bender!

Revelation 21:1-27
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” ..."

So God is going to dwell with us. Many think that we are going to go up to heaven and be with God for eternity, but it seems He is going to make all things new and dwell with us on the new earth in the new Jerusalem for eternity, so no "time" involved at all. Pretty interesting!

 

[paulm50]

So based on this, it seems as if we have evolved to such an extent to actually be able to control evolution, right? Somehow, "evolution" having no intelligence behind it has enabled us to have intelligence and be able to control it? How can intelligence come from something that has no intelligence?

That's how easy evolution works. Evolution isn't controlled by intelligence, it's controlled by nature and the best fitted for their environment surviving and multiplying. Do when Maga Fauna existed, large predators could survive of the large animals the needed. After the large prey animals died, so did the very large wolves and sabre tooth tigers. To be replaced by the wolves we have today and mountain lions.

Can a painted master piece somehow control how it came to be a master piece? No, a man created the master piece. The man taking much time and effort, put his heart and soul into creating this master piece. He may of had to start from scratch many times while developing the master piece, but in the end it becomes a master piece, because of his efforts, it was nothing the master piece itself did, it was all the man did.

We are the master piece that God is working on. "Evolution" can be thought of as the process by which God has developed His master piece. "Evolution" itself has 0 intelligence, God is the intelligence that has driven us to where we are today. Can you imagine trying to paint a master piece that is constantly denying that you're actually painting it.

You - "I'm going to make you into a beautiful masterpiece, just be patient and know that I'm working"

Masterpiece - "No you're not, I've made myself this way, I don't need you to make me into a masterpiece"

You - "Fine have it your way" and you stop painting...

Wouldn't it be so much easier for God if we were all just physical paintings that couldn't talk. Actually, I believe it is easy for God because He can do the impossible.

God isn't an ordinary man, nature makes mistakes. Evidence of this is everywhere.

Okay, we've created artificial life, and this proves that we humans can artificially create life. To me this only supports the belief that real life (not artificial) was created by God. Imagine we give this artificial life billions of years to "evolve", what do you think will eventually happen? Well, given enough time they will be able to question why they exist, right? What kind of questions do you think they'll ask? One obvious one is, why am I here? Some will deny they were created and say their existence was from a random event, others may think they were created by something else. Of the two answers, who's closer to the truth?

yous said we couldn't, me pointing out we have done. Displays your lack of intelligence on the subject. Like your statement thet foddils aren't giving us the evidence. That was so inaccurate it can only come from a man who has no knowledge of the subject. Research fossil hands, it will teach you how species are all linked over millions of years and backs up evolution

I can't prove anything about what men from 4,000 years ago did for obvious reasons. However, I did just give a good reason to believe God exists, now whether or not you believe this God can communicate with you through the Bible is up to you. I would suggest not blaspheming the very word that God himself has said is His word because your being the masterpiece who is telling it's creator to put the brush down and step away, while you sit unfinished.

I can prove what they said is wrong. For obvious reasons, it is wrong. No you gave evidence of a lack of knowledge. Blaspehing, the man made penalty for questioning the rulers.

I'm not sure if you admit to all the other species that have gone before, and claim they were a perfect god trying out different things. Or believe what's written in the bible, that he didn't have to many goes at getting it right. Which one is it?

 

[paulm50]

Science is finite

Science is "finite" because it is "within" the greater realm of existence. Because science exists within Time, which is (scientifically) an illusion, it is in fact only a minute part, and actually non-existent by every scientific premise (space, matter, time).

So science stops at what we know now and not what we will learn tomorrow.

The Bible on the other hand, when it was "finished", was complete (in summary). The scriptures explain that the words we have access to now, are only "part", but we will in the fullness of time, see all. If you put that together with the fact that Time is an illusion (scientifically), then it should be concluded that Time is the very thing that limits us from seeing the whole truth of life. Science therefore, is under the same limitation.

And the bible is infinite because it stopped 2,000 years ago.

Asking a Bronze Age preacher about the universe and how we all got here... Not sure if you are referring to Jesus. But if you were...would actually be exactly like asking the Creator of the jet engine (and the universe). But, before I just tick you off, you should really, seriously consider just how much anyone "within" ANY school of understanding, would or could know about what is "outside" or "beyond" that level of understanding. And why would anyone turn away from the actual realm of understanding for answers about a completely different area of understanding? Don't you see that, that is asking the wrong people for the right answers...and asking the right people for the right answers, would be more effective?

What did Jesus say about the creation of the Earth? did he refer back to what Bronze Age men were retelling from stories told long before the OT was written?

Knowledge in 30 AD was marginally better than 1,000 BC. And not a patch on today's.

 

[ScottA]

Interesting...I guess I think of "time" as something God created in order to communicate His truth to us. So in essence, He created it for us and it enables Him to communicate so it's a necessity to both sides. Just like He created space and the earth for us to dwell in, I don't believe space and the earth are an illusion do you? I believe God will destroy the earth, space and time as we know it and create a new earth and a new heaven when His will is fulfilled at the end of time. "At the end of time" meaning time as we know it will come to an end. Will God create a new "time" as well. If we consider time as absolute, then it could not absolutely exist and then absolutely not exist, so maybe it is just an illusion because it absolutely does not exist. That's a real mind blower/bender!

Revelation 21:1-27
"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” ..."

So God is going to dwell with us. Many think that we are going to go up to heaven and be with God for eternity, but it seems He is going to make all things new and dwell with us on the new earth in the new Jerusalem for eternity, so no "time" involved at all. Pretty interesting!

Geneses basically says it all: Space, time, and matter were "created." They are not what the seem, but are actually energy (from God). But this created world is passing away, and His kingdom is not of this world.

The new heaven and the new earth are a dim view (a picture), an elementary view, of something much greater. It is a finite unreality view of an infinite reality that He has prepared.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

 

[paulm50]

This is a very interesting way to think about time in regards to the Bible. Just curious if you actually believe time is an illusion or if you're just saying science claims time is an illusion?

I'll ad this as well, I believe Jesus Christ is the absolute truth and I think you'd probably agree, but how then is there still more truth to be revealed through time if Jesus is the absolute truth? I suppose if one truly believes in Jesus Christ, then and only then will God reveal truth to them through the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for the interesting perspective. I'm excited to see what God has in store for the future!

God Bless!

Jesus and other made claims that were wrong, prophecies that were never fulfilled, so how can they be the truth?

As for Genesis, as it's written it's wrong. Even you and others have admitted it wasn't as it's written. There were many species on the Earth long before man arrived. Not even if the Life of the Earth is compressed to a week. We don't arrive in the last 24 hours, we arrive in the last 8 minutes and share the Earth with other hominid species. So not even unique at the time, species not in the garden of eden.

Or do you deny the existence of Neanderthals?

 

[ScottA]

So science stops at what we know now and not what we will learn tomorrow.


And the bible is infinite because it stopped 2,000 years ago.


What did Jesus say about the creation of the Earth? did he refer back to what Bronze Age men were retelling from stories told long before the OT was written?

Knowledge in 30 AD was marginally better than 1,000 BC. And not a patch on today's.

Hey, you got something right! "Knowledge shall be increased." ...But it's still finite, compared to infinite.

 

[paulm50]

Geneses basically says it all: Space, time, and matter were "created." They are not what the seem, but are actually energy (from God). But this created world is passing away, and His kingdom is not of this world.

The new heaven and the new earth are a dim view (a picture), an elementary view, of something much greater. It is a finite unreality view of an infinite reality that He has prepared.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

So god created it, and it doesn't exist as a real thing. Can you link us to the part of Genesis that says this, exactly as you explain it.

 

[paulm50]

Hey, you got something right! "Knowledge shall be increased." ...But it's still finite, compared to infinite.

So the meaning of finite is something that increases.

Finite

adjective
1. limited in size or extent.
"every computer has a finite amount of memory" ("every bible has a finite amount of knowledge" )
synonyms: limited, not infinite, subject to limitations, restricted;
2. GRAMMAR
(of a verb form) having a specific tense, number, and person.

Can you speak in real English please.

 

[paulm50]

Horizon: What Happened Before the Big Bang?

A program on BBC4 tonight. There are many such programs on the British TV and I politely suggest some of the doubters in science watch them. So they don't display a huge lack of knowledge when debating Creation v Evolution. For instance say fossils don't have the evidence, evolution being about intelligence, and how we hominids are a huge branch of the Ape family. And by no means a unique creation as Genesis describes.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Interesting...I guess I think of "time" as something God created in order to communicate His truth to us.

Time was given so people have a chance to repent. At the end of time there will no longer be a delay between cause and effect.

 

[paulm50]

Fossil Discoveries.

Evolution of life on earth.

Evolution of man.

Evolution of mammals.

Not as easy to understand as Bronze Age science, the 6 day myth. Still undeniable proof beyond sane dispute. You can see how Darwin's Theory works, how "Survival of the Fittest, doesn't mean the strongest it means those most fitted to their environment. How there is no intelligence guiding it, and how fossils do show the proof of how we evolved.

And how we learn something new every day, and how the bible never knew anything about how we got to where we are now.

 

[paulm50]

Time was given so people have a chance to repent. At the end of time there will no longer be a delay between cause and effect.

That's the problem, you're saying things that you make up. I can give my child time to go to bed, to change her ways, or a time out. Time is just a measure of time passing.

You god isn't good at giving people time in the bible, to change, he preferred wiping them out. If only in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Yes at the end of time. According to Jesus, that should of happened 1960 years ago. In fact the end of time is the most badly predicted event ever.

Interesting...I guess I think of "time" as something God created in order to communicate His truth to us.

What is his truth? As far as Genesis and the 6 day myth. That's not his truth. It was something man made to control the people into believing the people telling the story, not the god they were representing.

Because if god was talking to them, he would of told them the truth and he could of still made the existence of man, as we are, a miracle. There's a big difference between the intelligence level of Homo Sapiens and other hominids, that would of been The Truth.

The truth is we have a larger brain, better learning skills, better, faster and more accurate accumulation of knowledge, than our closes relative today, the chimp and our closer Hominids relatives from the past. There's the real miracle.

The problem for Middle East Bronze Age Man he had no idea of what came before, god could of told them if he exists. Problem is for the bible writers is if he does exist, he wasn't talking to them.

 

[Chriliman]

That's how easy evolution works. Evolution isn't controlled by intelligence, it's controlled by nature

So, what is nature controlled by? And please don't say evolution.

God isn't an ordinary man, nature makes mistakes. Evidence of this is everywhere.

Right, God isn't a man at all, he's God. How could nature make a mistake if there wasn't something perfect to compare it's mistake to? Basically the only way a mistake can be made is if something deviates from perfection. Hmm, I think I know exactly what/who was the first to deviate from perfection, lucifer/satan/devil. This concept requires belief because we are subjective and cannot objectively know or see satan's banishment from heaven, we may be able to objectively see this when we die, but you'd better believe in the truth before you die.

yous said we couldn't, me pointing out we have done.

I never said we couldn't create artificial life, you must have me confused with someone else. It's important to know who your talking to when you're in a debate, otherwise miss understandings will cause major confusion.

Displays your lack of intelligence on the subject. Like your statement thet foddils aren't giving us the evidence.

Again, I never said this, please accuse the right people of what they truly said and don't accuse others of saying something they didn't say.

I can prove what they said is wrong. For obvious reasons, it is wrong. No you gave evidence of a lack of knowledge. Blaspehing, the man made penalty for questioning the rulers.

Why should I believe your subjective mind in saying they are lying? It seems far more intelligent to believe they were all right and that you are wrong.

I'm not sure if you admit to all the other species that have gone before, and claim they were a perfect god trying out different things. Or believe what's written in the bible, that he didn't have to many goes at getting it right. Which one is it?

I'm saying all knowledge is from God and God decides who receives His knowledge and when they receive it through the Holy Spirit. It was in God's perfect will to give the right amount of knowledge to the "Bronze Age Men" about creation because in doing so His perfect will is being fulfilled, whether you can see that or not is actually up to God to impart His knowledge on you and I believe He will, it's just a matter of "time". It's now "time" for His knowledge to become known to all.

 

[paulm50]

So, what is nature controlled by? And please don't say evolution.

The Earth, elements, climate, etc. If you're clutching at straws to prove god has a hand in it somewhere. Go ahard, I suggest you use Google before doing so, It's that easy to shoot you down.

Right, God isn't a man at all, he's God. How could nature make a mistake if there wasn't something perfect to compare it's mistake to? Basically the only way a mistake can be made is if something deviates from perfection. Hmm, I think I know exactly what/who was the first to deviate from perfection, lucifer/satan/devil. This concept requires belief because we are subjective and cannot objectively know or see satan's banishment from heaven, we may be able to objectively see this when we die, but you'd better believe in the truth before you die.

Now you're babbling. Where do you see perfection on Earth? Lucifer/satan/devil are a sign of your idea of god, as being weak. Or cruel. He either can't destroy them or doesn't want to.

I never said we couldn't create artificial life, you must have me confused with someone else. It's important to know who your talking to when you're in a debate, otherwise miss understandings will cause major confusion.

Yes someone else said it, wanted to show how wrong he was. And how easy it is to create life.

Again, I never said this, please accuse the right people of what they truly said and don't accuse others of saying something they didn't say.

See above. sorry for mistaking you.

Why should I believe your subjective mind in saying they are lying? It seems far more intelligent to believe they were all right and that you are wrong.

Don't believe me, look up the evidence. It's all there in 10,000s of books, researched over and over again.

I'm saying all knowledge is from God and God decides who receives His knowledge and when they receive it through the Holy Spirit. It was in God's perfect will to give the right amount of knowledge to the "Bronze Age Men" about creation because in doing so His perfect will is being fulfilled, whether you can see that or not is actually up to God to impart His knowledge on you and I believe He will, it's just a matter of "time". It's now "time" for His knowledge to become known to all.

Then god gave them the wrong knowledge. Or you deny the existence of millions of species that pre-date the Bronze age. As for his perfect will be fulfilled, prove it.

It's now time for his his knowledge, another false prophecy from another false prophet. The harsh truth is the church is losing members by the day.

This is what the power of religion can achieve in hands of fundamentals who preach from an antiquated book. The Christian Church has had similar, so have most religions.