If Protestantism is true, why they are not united? (2)

[rick357]

... that's exactly the trouble with your concept of unity.
You think freedom is chaos.

Which denomination is right is a question that can not be answered in the way it is posed. In the first epistle to the corinthians Paul ask the question was Paul crucified for you. So i would ask is calvin or westley or the pope or any council or founder crucified for you. In truth we are all sects of the fulfilled judaism that Jesus established in his cross. Truth told every sect has both beliefs true to scripture and some that are infected by mens leaven. However Jesus said his disciples would be known by their love for one anouther. We should discuss our differances in understanding for the purpose of edification of each other. Not for the childish argument of which one The Father loves more.

 

[squint]

Which denomination is right is a question that can not be answered in the way it is posed. In the first epistle to the corinthians Paul ask the question was Paul crucified for you. So i would ask is calvin or westley or the pope or any council or founder crucified for you. In truth we are all sects of the fulfilled judaism that Jesus established in his cross. Truth told every sect has both beliefs true to scripture and some that are infected by mens leaven. However Jesus said his disciples would be known by their love for one anouther. We should discuss our differances in understanding for the purpose of edification of each other. Not for the childish argument of which one The Father loves more.

Or 'which one is 100% right' or 'which one is the only true church' or or or

Every sect is comprised of sinners. 100% of them are sinners. It is unlikely any composition of same is going to derive a 100% perfect conclusion about much of anything. Chances of that are less than zero. And to think it's any other way is deception.

 

[rick357]

Or 'which one is 100% right' or 'which one is the only true church' or or or

Every sect is comprised of sinners. 100% of them are sinners. It is unlikely any composition of same is going to derive a 100% perfect conclusion about much of anything. Chances of that are less than zero. And to think it's any other way is deception.

The scripture itself says there is one body, one spirit,one hope, one Lord, one faith, one babtism, one father...ephesians 4: 4-6 and also one God and one mediator...1 timothy 2: 5 and again one lawgiver. Yet nowhere are we told we would have one understanding(this would not include those who believe Jesus was only a good teacher or prophet as this is ahaiinst the faith). Despite our differances we are instructed in ephesians 4: 1-3 that by lowliness meekness long suffering and forbearing one anouther we are to keep unity of spirit and a bond of peace with all believers if we would have him consider us worthy of the work set before us.

 

[Targaryen]

The scripture itself says there is one body, one spirit,one hope, one Lord, one faith, one babtism, one father...ephesians 4: 4-6 and also one God and one mediator...1 timothy 2: 5 and again one lawgiver. Yet nowhere are we told we would have one understanding(this would not include those who believe Jesus was only a good teacher or prophet as this is ahaiinst the faith). Despite our differances we are instructed in ephesians 4: 1-3 that by lowliness meekness long suffering and forbearing one anouther we are to keep unity of spirit and a bond of peace with all believers if we would have him consider us worthy of the work set before us.

Great point!!! Very good point....one understanding is definately not in there and frankly I personally think it was left out cause I don't think God or the church wanted for lack of a better term, drones in the church. Faithful people yes but not people without their own minds and their own need to explore the texts.

 

[rick357]

Great point!!! Very good point....one understanding is definately not in there and frankly I personally think it was left out cause I don't think God or the church wanted for lack of a better term, drones in the church. Faithful people yes but not people without their own minds and their own need to explore the texts.

We understand that God is not a respector of persons, this is why it is faith in Gods grace that brings us into fellowship with him. A simple minded man or an intellectual man has neither advantage or disadvantage in Christ. Also as we grow in grace he changes our thinking and understanding. We are all in this process so we must not use the scripture to try to prove our position but instead as the bereans(wich the Holy Spirit called noble) search the scripture to see if the things we are told are true

 

[MoreCoffee]

Not only do I not need your permission, I already HAVE had at it, and I'm confident it makes me feel better than how happy your circumstances make you.

...And not just because you are obviously wrong about me knowing what you think, you having spilled your disorderly thoughts abundantly across this forum.

Such obvious factual evidence being so firmly denied reflection t-shirt poorly on your ability to distinguish between freedom and chaos.

But I have to admit, you lack no self-confidence to an unusual degree.

Odd phrasing there

A thought about evidence

To Kill a Mockingbird (4/10) Movie CLIP - Atticus Cross-Examines Mayella (1962) HD - YouTube

 

[~Anastasia~]

The scripture itself says there is one body, one spirit,one hope, one Lord, one faith, one babtism, one father...ephesians 4: 4-6 and also one God and one mediator...1 timothy 2: 5 and again one lawgiver. Yet nowhere are we told we would have one understanding(this would not include those who believe Jesus was only a good teacher or prophet as this is ahaiinst the faith). Despite our differances we are instructed in ephesians 4: 1-3 that by lowliness meekness long suffering and forbearing one anouther we are to keep unity of spirit and a bond of peace with all believers if we would have him consider us worthy of the work set before us.

Welcome to CF!

God bless you, my brother! +++

 

[MoreCoffee]

The scripture itself says there is one body, one spirit,one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one father...Ephesians 4: 4-6 and also one God and one mediator...1 timothy 2: 5 and again one lawgiver. Yet nowhere are we told we would have one understanding(this would not include those who believe Jesus was only a good teacher or prophet as this is against the faith). Despite our differences we are instructed in Ephesians 4: 1-3 that by lowliness meekness long suffering and forbearing one another we are to keep unity of spirit and a bond of peace with all believers if we would have him consider us worthy of the work set before us.

Great point!!! Very good point....one understanding is definitely not in there and frankly I personally think it was left out cause I don't think God or the church wanted for lack of a better term, drones in the church. Faithful people yes but not people without their own minds and their own need to explore the texts.

Mind and understanding are pretty much the same thing so the point is askew, it misses the mark.

(Romans 12:16 KJV) Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

(Romans 15:6 KJV) That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(2 Corinthians 13:11 KJV) Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

(Philippians 1:27 KJV) Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

(Philippians 2:2 KJV) Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

(1 Peter 3:8 KJV) Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:​

 

[rick357]

Mind and understanding are pretty much the same thing so the point is askew, it misses the mark.
(Romans 12:16 KJV) Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

(Romans 15:6 KJV) That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(2 Corinthians 13:11 KJV) Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

(Philippians 1:27 KJV) Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

(Philippians 2:2 KJV) Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

(1 Peter 3:8 KJV) Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

You suppose that mind and understanding are the same they are not. Even in our language they are not the same and certainly they are differant in the origanal language. The true problem is that you have to change these passages context and intention to use them as our understanding. If you honestly believe this then I would be glad to discuss each verse in its context with you. However if it is just a determination to be right then there is no point. As a end note in many of the verses listed mind deals motivation and desire not understanding

 

[MoreCoffee]

You suppose that mind and understanding are the same they are not. Even in our language they are not the same and certainly they are differant in the origanal language. The true problem is that you have to change these passages context and intention to use them as our understanding. If you honestly believe this then I would be glad to discuss each verse in its context with you. However if it is just a determination to be right then there is no point. As a end note in many of the verses listed mind deals motivation and desire not understanding

φρονέω

phronéō; contracted phronṓ, fut. phronḗsō, from phrḗn (G5424), mind. To think, have a mindset, be minded. The activity represented by this word involves the will, affections, and conscience.

(I) Generally, to be of an opinion. Followed by the acc. of thing (Act 28:22; Rom 12:3; 1Co 4:6; Gal 5:10; Php 1:7). With an adv. or adv. phrase (Rom 12:3; 1Co 13:11). Of time, to regard, keep (Rom 14:6 [cf. Gal 4:10]).

(II) To think, to sense mentally, followed by the acc.

(A) Generally (Php 2:5, "let the same mind be in you as in Christ" [a.t.]; Php 3:15). In Rom 12:16, not to think of "high things" (hupsēlá [G5308]) means not to be proud. In the phrase tó autó ([G846], the same thing) phronéō it means to be of one mind, one accord, to think the same thing. Tó autó is the same as tó hén (neut. of heís [G1520], one), to think one and the same thing (Rom 15:5; 2Co 13:11; Php 2:2; Php 3:16; Php 4:2).

(B) To be mindful of, to be devoted to (Mat 16:23; Mar 8:33; Rom 8:5; Php 3:19; Col 3:2); with hupér ([G5228], on behalf of, for), to mind, regard, care for (Php 4:10).

Deriv.: kataphronéō (G2706), to despise; paraphronéō (G3912), to be foolhardy; periphronéō (G4065), to despise; huperphronéō (G5252), to be vain, arrogant; hupsēlophronéō (G5309), to be proud, arrogant philóphrōn (G5391), friendly; phrónēma (G5427), thought; phrónēsis (G5428), thinking; phrónimos (G5429), thoughtful.

Syn.: phrontízō (G5431), to think, consider, be careful; dokéō (G1380), to think, form an opinion; hēgéomai (G2233), to think; noéō (G3539), to perceive, understand; katanoéō (G2657), to perceive fully, comprehend; aisthánomai (G143), to perceive, understand; katalambánō (G2638), to apprehend, comprehend; oída (G1482), to know intuitively; suníēmi (G4920), to perceive, understand; epístamai (G1987), to know well; punthánomai (G4441), to ascertain; ginṓskō (G1097) and gnōrízō (G1107), to know experientially; logízomai (G3049), to reckon, think; huponoéō (G5282), nomízō (G3543), and oíomai (G3633) or oímai, to suppose, think; phaínō (G5316), to appear, think; enthuméomai (G1760), to reflect, ponder; krínō (G2919), to judge.

Ant.: paraphronéō (G3912), to be beside oneself, deranged, a fool; mōraínō (G3471), to make foolish, and the mid. mōraínomai, to become foolish; paralogízomai (G3884), to delude, deceive; exístēmi (G1839), to become insane or beside oneself.

 

[rick357]

???????

phronéo?; contracted phrono??, fut. phrone??so?, from phre??n (G5424), mind. To think, have a mindset, be minded. The activity represented by this word involves the will, affections, and conscience.

(I) Generally, to be of an opinion. Followed by the acc. of thing (Act 28:22; Rom 12:3; 1Co 4:6; Gal 5:10; Php 1:7). With an adv. or adv. phrase (Rom 12:3; 1Co 13:11). Of time, to regard, keep (Rom 14:6 [cf. Gal 4:10]).

(II) To think, to sense mentally, followed by the acc.

(A) Generally (Php 2:5, "let the same mind be in you as in Christ" [a.t.]; Php 3:15). In Rom 12:16, not to think of "high things" (hupse?lá [G5308]) means not to be proud. In the phrase tó autó ([G846], the same thing) phronéo? it means to be of one mind, one accord, to think the same thing. Tó autó is the same as tó hén (neut. of heís [G1520], one), to think one and the same thing (Rom 15:5; 2Co 13:11; Php 2:2; Php 3:16; Php 4:2).

(B) To be mindful of, to be devoted to (Mat 16:23; Mar 8:33; Rom 8:5; Php 3:19; Col 3:2); with hupér ([G5228], on behalf of, for), to mind, regard, care for (Php 4:10).

Deriv.: kataphronéo? (G2706), to despise; paraphronéo? (G3912), to be foolhardy; periphronéo? (G4065), to despise; huperphronéo? (G5252), to be vain, arrogant; hupse?lophronéo? (G5309), to be proud, arrogant philóphro?n (G5391), friendly; phróne?ma (G5427), thought; phróne?sis (G5428), thinking; phrónimos (G5429), thoughtful.

Syn.: phrontízo? (G5431), to think, consider, be careful; dokéo? (G1380), to think, form an opinion; he?géomai (G2233), to think; noéo? (G3539), to perceive, understand; katanoéo? (G2657), to perceive fully, comprehend; aisthánomai (G143), to perceive, understand; katalambáno? (G2638), to apprehend, comprehend; oída (G1482), to know intuitively; suníe?mi (G4920), to perceive, understand; epístamai (G1987), to know well; punthánomai (G4441), to ascertain; gino??sko? (G1097) and gno?rízo? (G1107), to know experientially; logízomai (G3049), to reckon, think; huponoéo? (G5282), nomízo? (G3543), and oíomai (G3633) or oímai, to suppose, think; phaíno? (G5316), to appear, think; enthuméomai (G1760), to reflect, ponder; kríno? (G2919), to judge.

Ant.: paraphronéo? (G3912), to be beside oneself, deranged, a fool; mo?raíno? (G3471), to make foolish, and the mid. mo?raínomai, to become foolish; paralogízomai (G3884), to delude, deceive; exíste?mi (G1839), to become insane or beside oneself.

Thank you. This should show that by definition in context this does not lend itself that all understanding is a condition of fellowship or salvation.

 

[MoreCoffee]

φρονέω

phronéō; contracted phronṓ, fut. phronḗsō, from phrḗn (G5424), mind. To think, have a mindset, be minded. The activity represented by this word involves the will, affections, and conscience.

(I) Generally, to be of an opinion. Followed by the acc. of thing (Act 28:22; Rom 12:3; 1Co 4:6; Gal 5:10; Php 1:7). With an adv. or adv. phrase (Rom 12:3; 1Co 13:11). Of time, to regard, keep (Rom 14:6 [cf. Gal 4:10]).

(II) To think, to sense mentally, followed by the acc.

(A) Generally (Php 2:5, "let the same mind be in you as in Christ" [a.t.]; Php 3:15). In Rom 12:16, not to think of "high things" (hupsēlá [G5308]) means not to be proud. In the phrase tó autó ([G846], the same thing) phronéō it means to be of one mind, one accord, to think the same thing. Tó autó is the same as tó hén (neut. of heís [G1520], one), to think one and the same thing (Rom 15:5; 2Co 13:11; Php 2:2; Php 3:16; Php 4:2).

(B) To be mindful of, to be devoted to (Mat 16:23; Mar 8:33; Rom 8:5; Php 3:19; Col 3:2); with hupér ([G5228], on behalf of, for), to mind, regard, care for (Php 4:10).

Deriv.: kataphronéō (G2706), to despise; paraphronéō (G3912), to be foolhardy; periphronéō (G4065), to despise; huperphronéō (G5252), to be vain, arrogant; hupsēlophronéō (G5309), to be proud, arrogant philóphrōn (G5391), friendly; phrónēma (G5427), thought; phrónēsis (G5428), thinking; phrónimos (G5429), thoughtful.

Syn.: phrontízō (G5431), to think, consider, be careful; dokéō (G1380), to think, form an opinion; hēgéomai (G2233), to think; noéō (G3539), to perceive, understand; katanoéō (G2657), to perceive fully, comprehend; aisthánomai (G143), to perceive, understand; katalambánō (G2638), to apprehend, comprehend; oída (G1482), to know intuitively; suníēmi (G4920), to perceive, understand; epístamai (G1987), to know well; punthánomai (G4441), to ascertain; ginṓskō (G1097) and gnōrízō (G1107), to know experientially; logízomai (G3049), to reckon, think; huponoéō (G5282), nomízō (G3543), and oíomai (G3633) or oímai, to suppose, think; phaínō (G5316), to appear, think; enthuméomai (G1760), to reflect, ponder; krínō (G2919), to judge.

Ant.: paraphronéō (G3912), to be beside oneself, deranged, a fool; mōraínō (G3471), to make foolish, and the mid. mōraínomai, to become foolish; paralogízomai (G3884), to delude, deceive; exístēmi (G1839), to become insane or beside oneself.

Thank you. This should show that by definition in context this does not lend itself that all understanding is a condition of fellowship or salvation.

None of the "one" passages insist of oneness for salvation, do they? That's isn't our topic.

 

[rick357]

None of the "one" passages insist of oneness for salvation, do they? That's isn't our topic.

You are correct that is not our topic. I was of the understanding you were replying that you disagreed with me saying among all denominations all believers should have fellowship even if our understanding of scripture is not "one" when you stated mind and understanding are the same. If I misunderstood you I am sorry.

 

[MoreCoffee]

You are correct that is not our topic. I was of the understanding you were replying that you disagreed with me saying among all denominations all believers should have fellowship even if our understanding of scripture is not "one" when you stated mind and understanding are the same. If I misunderstood you I am sorry.

Since the topic is unity as a test of truth (which is in my opinion a dubious test) the idea of likemindedness and having the same understanding does indeed seem much the same to me. The apostles looked for unity that was both deep and broad by which I mean the unity covers many aspects of one's life and the unity is deep because it is intended to be part of becoming like Jesus Christ.

 

[rick357]

Since the topic is unity as a test of truth (which is in my opinion a dubious test) the idea of likemindedness and having the same understanding does indeed seem much the same to me. The apostles looked for unity that was both deep and broad by which I mean the unity covers many aspects of one's life and the unity is deep because it is intended to be part of becoming like Jesus Christ.

I dont think we are as far apart as it might seem. Even within any denomination one can finda wide range of understanding. My stance is not acceptance of wide swaths of dogma, tradition, or even doctrine. However if we come to people then if they are brothers we must accept them as such.because there is only one body. Also iron sharpens iron.

 

[MoreCoffee]

I don't think we are as far apart as it might seem. Even within any denomination one can find a wide range of understanding. My stance is not acceptance of wide swaths of dogma, tradition, or even doctrine. However if we come to people then if they are brothers we must accept them as such.because there is only one body. Also iron sharpens iron.

It's a little bit confusing to refer to one body when discussing earthly churches because it is very obvious that there is not one church here on earth; the fact is that there are a number of ancient churches and then there are literally hundreds (even thousands) of independent churches and at least dozens to hundreds of denominations that are broadly speaking Protestant. And since this thread is about these bodies not being united talking about the one body of Christ seems quite outside the scope of the thread.

 

[rick357]

It's a little bit confusing to refer to one body when discussing earthly churches because it is very obvious that there is not one church here on earth; the fact is that there are a number of ancient churches and then there are literally hundreds (even thousands) of independent churches and at least dozens to hundreds of denominations that are broadly speaking Protestant. And since this thread is about these bodies not being united talking about the one body of Christ seems quite outside the scope of the thread.

Sir if you read Pauls teaching on the unity of the church also known as 1st corinthians you will see the Holy Spirit says we are one and chapter 12 talks about us being one body of many members. And by reading and responding to the post in this thread the answer becomes plain...Unity is not on our to do list

 

[MoreCoffee]

Sir if you read Paul's teaching on the unity of the church also known as 1st Corinthians you will see the Holy Spirit says we are one and chapter 12 talks about us being one body of many members. And by reading and responding to the post in this thread the answer becomes plain...Unity is not on our to do list

All that saint Paul says in his first letter to the Corinthians is true and I have no dispute with a single word of it. Yet in this forum are members of the Baptist Church, the Anglican Church, the Presbyterian Church, and various other churches thus it is obvious that there is not one church here on earth but many. And this thread asks if Protestantism is true, why they are not united? If there is one church it is not one of the ones listed above.

 

[rick357]

All that saint Paul says in his first letter to the Corinthians is true and I have no dispute with a single word of it. Yet in this forum are members of the Baptist Church, the Anglican Church, the Presbyterian Church, and various other churches thus it is obvious that there is not one church here on earth but many. And this thread asks if Protestantism is true, why they are not united? If there is one church it is not one of the ones listed above.

We see in part so we teach in part. It is man who has divided those who have recieved our Lords grace not God. Christ is not divided. When there are divisions amongst us it is because we are yet carnal looking to these things of the earth instead of on earth as it is in heaven. Christ is not going to return for his churches but for his church. and so let God be true and all who disagree with him the liars

 

[catholichomeschooler]

We see in part so we teach in part. It is man who has divided those who have recieved our Lords grace not God. Christ is not divided. When there are divisions amongst us it is because we are yet carnal looking to these things of the earth instead of on earth as it is in heaven. Christ is not going to return for his churches but for his church. and so let God be true and all who disagree with him the liars

Does the Church that Jesus built, that is being led by the Spirit into all truth, that is the pillar and foundation of truth, that Christ will be with until the end of time, that the gates of Hell will not prevail against, etc.....


Does this Church teach any false doctrines?