If murder is a sin, then why did God create murderers?

[Dogbean]

Yes, God told them not to eat from the tree... but how did they know that disobeying God was wrong before they had knowledge of right and wrong?

Put yourself in their shoes. A supreme, powerful being told them not to do something.

 

[cantata]

You and the poster you responded to obviously did not read chapter one of Genesis.

Unfortunately, Genesis doesn't answer the question. God said it was good, but he obviously lied, because people who were part of that creation then misbehaved.

Besides, you'll notice that it's in the Genesis 1 account that God declares creation to be good. In Genesis 2-3, written by a different author, he does no such thing - and of course it's in this second, more ancient story that the human beings misbehave.

God created the world, and all the things in it, and declared it all good. Then, sin entered the world.

Well that's a contradiction in terms. If God didn't make the sin, where did it come from?

What, you guys never heard of original sin?

Of course, since belief in an actual devil is passé these days, maybe you haven't. I'll summarize:

1. God created the world and the people in it. Everything was perfect.

2. Satan snookered man into disobeying God, and the world became corrupt.

3. Satan continues to snooker man right up to the present day (man really isn't all that terribly bright, although he likes to think that he is), and the world is still corrupt.

4. God devised a way for man to avoid spending eternity in awful torment with Satan by sending us a Redeemer, Jesus Christ.

5. Even though man can be redeemed from hell by faith in Christ, the world is still corrupted by original sin, and will remain so until time comes to an end.

So God made a sinful being. There's no escaping it. And by the way, there's no need to be so condescending about my biblical knowledge. Theology student here. I know very well about the fantasy of original sin, and I find it utterly ridiculous.

Heterosexual couples have no danger of any of this stuff if they are using the sexual faculty in the proper way and for the purpose that God created it to used for. In other words, anal sex is, in its own way, just as much a perversion as homosexual sex is. But that shouldn't be surprising. You don't stick soup spoons in your ear, do you?

Would God send me to hell for sticking a soup spoon in my ear, too?

Put yourself in their shoes. A supreme, powerful being told them not to do something.

But they had NO KNOWLEDGE of good and evil.

When you tell a 3-year-old child, "Don't do that!" why do they obey? Because they fear a telling off! Since Adam and Eve had had no one to teach them about good and evil, they were like children in that respect. And when God said, "Don't do that!" perhaps they feared the telling off, but their curiosity got the better of them. It is utterly, unbelievably ridiculous and unfair to blame them at all for the "sin" of eating the fruit, let alone punish EVERY SINGLE SUBSEQUENT HUMAN BEING for it. If a person behaved that way, you'd think them a monster. But because God did it, it's all lovely.

I don't expect you to change your mind. I am mostly just expressing my displeasure.

 

[FrederickM]

For God gave man the freedom to sin, because he loved us and trusted us so much.

 

[cantata]

For God gave man the freedom to sin, because he loved us and trusted us so much.

It was misplaced, though, wasn't it?

 

[Wolseley]

Translation: you know the “lengthy list” contains references that are just as false as the first ones you put up.

No, the translation is that I know any data, from any source, will be rejected by some posters if that data in any way views homosexuality as anything other than completely normal, wonderful, and beneficial.

(shrug) We've all played this game before.

However many are unwilling to actually look at claims made by the religious right and test them with facts and confront them with truth

And as I said: many are unable to distinguish between truth coming from God, and untruth coming from Satan, in no small part because the untruth coming from Satan is what they personally wish to embrace and legitimize.

I have just as many sins, failings, and perversions as anyone else. The difference is that I recognize my sins, failings, and perversions for what they are, I don't try to sanitize them and make them into the opposite of what they are, and I don't demand that society tolerate my sins, failings, and perversions or be labelled "hatemongers".

 

[jcook922]

And as I said: many are unable to distinguish between truth coming from God, and untruth coming from Satan, in no small part because the untruth coming from Satan is what they personally wish to embrace and legitimize.

Perhaps YOU are the one unable to distinguish between your values, and that other people have values that aren't shared by you. Your views work for you, but not for everyone else. It's bigoted arrogance that you would force your views on the rest of the world when they aren't hurting anybody. There are productive and happy homosexuals out there that live normal lives and aren't doing anything wrong, if you don't like it, then that is YOUR problem, deal with it, tough.

Now I normally don't stand up for the homosexual crowd, while I have a few gay friends, I find the majority of them walk around and act the way they do to paint some sort of banner on themselves to justify their orientation. I can't stand gay men who act more feminine than women, my first reaction is to want to beat them to death. The only thing that annoys me more in this world is religious intolerance regarding issues that aren't harming our society.

 

[cantata]

Now I normally don't stand up for the homosexual crowd, while I have a few gay friends, I find the majority of them walk around and act the way they do to paint some sort of banner on themselves to justify their orientation. I can't stand gay men who act more feminine than women, my first reaction is to want to beat them to death.

Gosh. o_0

I can't imagine why they'd provoke such a strong reaction. They're just being themselves, or following fashion, like everyone else. If that's how they feel comfortable, what's the problem?

 

[lawtonfogle]

For God gave man the freedom to sin, because he loved us and trusted us so much.

My parents loved and trusted me, but they would have been put in jail if they gave me a gun as a child.

 

[jcook922]

Gosh. o_0

I can't imagine why they'd provoke such a strong reaction. They're just being themselves, or following fashion, like everyone else. If that's how they feel comfortable, what's the problem?

It's just extremely annoying to me as a person, it isn't the fact that they are gay. Heterosexual men doing the same thing would annoy me equally as much, I just can't stand the whole froo-froo limp wristed attitude, the non-stop talking, the lisp, it's just a stereotype, but one that alot of homosexuals promote by fitting said stereotype. On the other hand, I have a friend who is flaming gay, but you would have to know him really well to have suspicions of that. He's a black belt in Tae Kwan Do and participates professionally, and his boyfriend is in the army.

 

[cantata]

It's just extremely annoying to me as a person, it isn't the fact that they are gay. Heterosexual men doing the same thing would annoy me equally as much, I just can't stand the whole froo-froo limp wristed attitude, the non-stop talking, the lisp, it's just a stereotype, but one that alot of homosexuals promote by fitting said stereotype. On the other hand, I have a friend who is flaming gay, but you would have to know him really well to have suspicions of that. He's a black belt in Tae Kwan Do and participates professionally, and his boyfriend is in the army.

Do you view men who play sports and women who wear dresses with the same negative feelings? What's wrong with being a stereotypical gay man if that's how you feel most comfortable?

 

[BigBadWlf]

Put yourself in their shoes. A supreme, powerful being told them not to do something.

A supremely powerful being would of course known what would happen.

If I set a plate of homemade cookies in front of my kids and then announce that dinner will be eggplant surprise with broccoli and the tell the kids “don’t you dare eat any of these scrumptious cookies” and then leave the room. I know that there will be cookie crumbs all over the place by the time I get back.

God didn’t have to put the two “forbidden” trees in the garden. But he did so anyway. God didn’t have to make them forbidden But he did so anyway.
God knew what was going to happen but let it happen anyway
The only conclusion is things happened just the way God knew they would and the way god wanted.

 

[BigBadWlf]

No, the translation is that I know any data, from any source, will be rejected by some posters

The only thing that happened to the claims you provided was that just a few of the false statements they contained were confronted. Why shouldn’t people look at claims? Test them? Research the science of claims? And confront claims shown to be false?

Why do you feel the need to defend false claims?

if that data in any way views homosexuality as anything other than completely normal, wonderful, and beneficial.

Actually it is the false witness that is being rejected. Or are you saying it is good and moral and just to present lies about a minority?

(shrug) We've all played this game before.

And still you knowingly presented false information knowing that the fabrications and misrepresentations of Diggs and Cameron would be confronted with the truth

Why?

And as I said: many are unable to distinguish between truth coming from God, and untruth coming from Satan, in no small part because the untruth coming from Satan is what they personally wish to embrace and legitimize.

I have just as many sins, failings, and perversions as anyone else. The difference is that I recognize my sins, failings, and perversions for what they are, I don't try to sanitize them and make them into the opposite of what they are, and I don't demand that society tolerate my sins, failings, and perversions or be labelled "hatemongers".

Neither Diggs or Cameron are God and both presented numerous false claims. Why are you defending and even championing the use of false claims to attack a minority?

 

[Wolseley]

Perhaps YOU are the one unable to distinguish between your values, and that other people have values that aren't shared by you. Your views work for you, but not for everyone else.

From your viewpoint, that's quite true. I am more concerned with not offending God than I am with not offending man, however.

It's bigoted arrogance that you would force your views on the rest of the world when they aren't hurting anybody.

So, in other words then, if I oppose legitmizing homosexual behavior in all forms, then I am attempting to force my views on the rest of the world, and that's bigoted arrogance and bad. However, if homosexuals attempt to force their views on the rest of the world (or even just those with a conservative Judeo-Christian faith), then that's tolerance and inclusiveness, and that's good.

Again, we have played this game before. The bottom line is, I'm tired of having the drive-by media and militant gay groups shove homosexuality down my throat. I'm tired of encountering it constantly on TV, in movies, in newspapers, on radio, in magazines, on billboards, in two males or females swapping spit in public parks. I have no wish to be exposed to their errant behavior and I don't wish for my children to be exposed to it either.

There are productive and happy homosexuals out there that live normal lives

But if they're buggering one another, old boy, that isn't "normal". Thats what you all refuse to see.

if you don't like it, then that is YOUR problem, deal with it, tough.

I'd say you're absolutely correct. It may yet come to the point where I simply have to take my family and withdraw from this culture, like the Amish.

 

[cantata]

The bottom line is, I'm tired of having the drive-by media and militant gay groups shove homosexuality down my throat. I'm tired of encountering it constantly on TV, in movies, in newspapers, on radio, in magazines, on billboards, in two males or females swapping spit in public parks. I have no wish to be exposed to their errant behavior and I don't wish for my children to be exposed to it either.

I'm afraid you don't have a right not to be offended.

I find certain music very unpleasant, but I don't wish to see it banned to protect my delicate sensibilities.

But if they're buggering one another, old boy, that isn't "normal". Thats what you all refuse to see.

Yes it is. Heterosexuals bugger one another too, you know. And lesbians, I suppose, don't bugger one another very often at all, so they must be the epitome of normal.

Your argument comes down to "Ew, it's icky!" Luckily, laws aren't usually made on the basis of your personal dislikes.

 

[BigBadWlf]

From your viewpoint, that's quite true. I am more concerned with not offending God than I am with not offending man, however.

You don’t think presenting and then defending the false statements of Diggs and Cameron is offensive to God?

So, in other words then, if I oppose legitmizing homosexual behavior in all forms, then I am attempting to force my views on the rest of the world, and that's bigoted arrogance and bad.

If you were opposed to civil rights for blacks what would that be?
If you were opposed to freedom of worship for Hindus or Jews what would that be?

However, if homosexuals attempt to force their views on the rest of the world (or even just those with a conservative Judeo-Christian faith), then that's tolerance and inclusiveness, and that's good.

Those bad minorities. Wanting the same rights and legal protections you enjoy.

Again, we have played this game before. The bottom line is, I'm tired of having the drive-by media and militant gay groups shove homosexuality down my throat. I'm tired of encountering it constantly on TV, in movies, in newspapers, on radio, in magazines, on billboards, in two males or females swapping spit in public parks. I have no wish to be exposed to their errant behavior and I don't wish for my children to be exposed to it either.

I am reminded about a book on the hisotryof the television show Star Trek. I think it was written by David Gerrold, one of the shows writers. In it he explains that the characters Lt Uhura and Lt Sulu were purposefully not shown on camera for the first three episodes because of threats by numerous NBC affiliates in the deep south not wanting their viewers offended by the presence of minorities being portrayed as equals to the white characters. After their first appearance 18 affiliates in the south refused to air the show, they didn’t want the civil rights agenda shoved down their viewers throats. Or worse have their children exposed to such a thing

But if they're buggering one another, old boy, that isn't "normal". Thats what you all refuse to see.

And there are people “disgusted” by interracial marriage and the implied sex acts those couples engage in. does this give them the right to discriminate against interracial or push an agenda of discrimination against such couples?

I'd say you're absolutely correct. It may yet come to the point where I simply have to take my family and withdraw from this culture, like the Amish.

That is comforting. So what happens if the children grow up and don’t share your personal prejudices?

 

[Trevorocity]

You obviously did not read the article.

That's because they're from Lying "Christian" propaganda cites that need not be mentioned here.

 

[Wolseley]

I'm afraid you don't have a right not to be offended.

Amazingly enough, neither do homosexuals. But I notice that heterosexuals aren't the ones running around trying to legislate "anti-hate" laws.

I find certain music very unpleasant, but I don't wish to see it banned to protect my delicate sensibilities.

But you do take action on a personal level to lessen or eliminate your exposure to it, no doubt.

Yes it is. Heterosexuals bugger one another too, you know.

Again, not if they're using the sexual faculty properly according to both nature and traditional Judeo-Christian teaching.

And lesbians, I suppose, don't bugger one another very often at all, so they must be the epitome of normal.

The same body of teaching covers aspects such as [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and masturbatory practices.

Your argument comes down to "Ew, it's icky!" Luckily, laws aren't usually made on the basis of your personal dislikes.

They didn't used to be made on the basis of tiny segments of the population with militant agendas, either; but that's changed with the new religion of Political Correctness and its triune god, Tolerance, Diversity, and Multiculturalism.

You don’t think presenting and then defending the false statements of Diggs and Cameron is offensive to God?

First, you haven't convinced me that they're false. Secondly, they fall closer in line of what my faith teaches me is the mind of God than what you're espousing.

If you were opposed to civil rights for blacks what would that be?

False dichotomy. Traditional Christian teaching does not place race into a sinful category of behavior. You can't choose not to be black. But you can choose not to engage in homosexual behavior.

If you were opposed to freedom of worship for Hindus or Jews what would that be?

Another false dichotomy. My Church teaches that religious faith (unless it involves some other form of sinful behavior, such as human sacrifice or worship of devils or some such), is not a sin. Those who are not believers in Christ, however, are, to quote the Vatican, in "a deficient salvational situation".

Those bad minorities. Wanting the same rights and legal protections you enjoy.

And there are people “disgusted” by interracial marriage and the implied sex acts those couples engage in. does this give them the right to discriminate against interracial or push an agenda of discrimination against such couples?

See above.

That is comforting. So what happens if the children grow up and don’t share your personal prejudices?

All I can do is to try to teach them right from wrong, and to pass on my faith as best I can. Ultimately, they will have to make their own decisions as do we all. My deepest hope would be that they will follow the beliefs of their mother and myself; but if they are more influenced by the errors of the present age than by the faith as preserved by the Catholic Church, then all I can do is pray for their souls. Nobody's ultimate salvation is within my power to grant or deny anyway, not even my children's. That capacity is reserved to God alone.

 

[aotn]

From your viewpoint, that's quite true. I am more concerned with not offending God than I am with not offending man, however.

Yes, the "Audience of One" belief- who cares if you're a jerk, as long as you don't insult God? I have to ask, though, is God so weak and fragile that you think you'd actually be ABLE to offend Him?

So, in other words then, if I oppose legitmizing homosexual behavior in all forms, then I am attempting to force my views on the rest of the world, and that's bigoted arrogance and bad. However, if homosexuals attempt to force their views on the rest of the world (or even just those with a conservative Judeo-Christian faith), then that's tolerance and inclusiveness, and that's good.

Again, we have played this game before. The bottom line is, I'm tired of having the drive-by media and militant gay groups shove homosexuality down my throat. I'm tired of encountering it constantly on TV, in movies, in newspapers, on radio, in magazines, on billboards, in two males or females swapping spit in public parks. I have no wish to be exposed to their errant behavior and I don't wish for my children to be exposed to it either.

I take it you don't subscribe to this whole "love your neighbour" thing.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Amazingly enough, neither do homosexuals. But I notice that heterosexuals aren't the ones running around trying to legislate "anti-hate" laws.

If there was no hatred then there would be no need for anti-hate laws.

Do you also disparage blacks for wanting things like anti-lynching laws?

But you do take action on a personal level to lessen or eliminate your exposure to it, no doubt.

But she doesn’t promote discrimination against those who listen to such music. Nor does she justify lies about people who listen to music she does not like

Again, not if they're using the sexual faculty properly according to both nature and traditional Judeo-Christian teaching.

Christianity has a long tradition of racism and anti-Semitism. Does that tradition make discrimination acceptable?

The same body of teaching covers aspects such as [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and masturbatory practices.

I think you might be referring to Gen 38:6-10. Here the sin was not masturbation but rather coitus interruptis. God placed a high priority on the need for widows without male children to be raped until they conceived and while Onan was more than willing to rape his sister in law he was unwilling to father a child that society would not consider to be his and therefore engaged in a rather unreliable form of birth control coitus interruptis where he spilled his seed on the ground. God saw this as not fulfilling his duty and killed him.

They didn't used to be made on the basis of tiny segments of the population with militant agendas, either; but that's changed with the new religion of Political Correctness and its triune god, Tolerance, Diversity, and Multiculturalism.

Militant agenda meaning a minority doesn’t happily accept discrimination and violence against them by people who choose to hate. How horrible of them!

First, you haven't convinced me that they're false.

Making up data and lying about what legitimate researches say is evidence of truth to you?

Secondly, they fall closer in line of what my faith teaches me is the mind of God than what you're espousing.

Your faith teaches you that false witness against a minority is a good and noble thing?

False dichotomy. Traditional Christian teaching does not place race into a sinful category of behavior.

Racists disagree with you.

But not the point. If you were opposed to civil rights for blacks would that not be bigotry?
Yes or no?

You can't choose not to be black. But you can choose not to engage in homosexual behavior.

i would ask you to provide evidence that sexual orientation is a choice. But considering you don’t care for truth in matters of science I doubt it would profit anybody.

As to your other claim. Racists do not hate black people because of the color of their skin, rather their issue with non-whites is the choice most blacks make when they defy the word of God and act as social equals to whites and then try to (to use your words) stuff their agenda down the throats of good Christians.

Another false dichotomy. My Church teaches that religious faith (unless it involves some other form of sinful behavior, such as human sacrifice or worship of devils or some such), is not a sin. Those who are not believers in Christ, however, are, to quote the Vatican, in "a deficient salvational situation".

Again not the point. If you were opposed to civil rights for Hindus or Jews would that not be bigotry?
Yes or no?


Hiding behind religion doesn’t make bigotry good or moral or just

See above.

Please answer the question:
there are people “disgusted” by interracial marriage and the implied sex acts those couples engage in. does this give them the right to discriminate against interracial or push an agenda of discrimination against such couples?

All I can do is to try to teach them right from wrong, and to pass on my faith as best I can. Ultimately, they will have to make their own decisions as do we all. My deepest hope would be that they will follow the beliefs of their mother and myself; but if they are more influenced by the errors of the present age than by the faith as preserved by the Catholic Church, then all I can do is pray for their souls. Nobody's ultimate salvation is within my power to grant or deny anyway, not even my children's. That capacity is reserved to God alone.

You didn’t answer the question. What would you do if your children grow up and reject hatred and prejudice?

 

[cantata]

Amazingly enough, neither do homosexuals. But I notice that heterosexuals aren't the ones running around trying to legislate "anti-hate" laws.

Do you disapprove of laws which prevent people from inciting violence against Christians, or from discriminating against Christians in the workplace?

But you do take action on a personal level to lessen or eliminate your exposure to it, no doubt.

I don't go to clubs where the music is played. I would vehemently oppose any proposed law to ban it, or to ban it being played in public places that which I like to visit, though. My dislike of the music does not translate to a belief that others' freedom to make and enjoy it should be curtailed.

Again, not if they're using the sexual faculty properly according to both nature and traditional Judeo-Christian teaching.

The same body of teaching covers aspects such as [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] and masturbatory practices.

Tell me, does God object as strongly to heterosexual [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] as he does to the lesbian variety?

Does God also object to me using a shoe to hammer in a nail?

They didn't used to be made on the basis of tiny segments of the population with militant agendas, either; but that's changed with the new religion of Political Correctness and its triune god, Tolerance, Diversity, and Multiculturalism.

Laws which support and uphold the civil rights of minority groups have been being made for centuries. Do you oppose all of them?