If Jesus took the punishment for all sinners, why doesn't he go to Hell?

St_Worm2 · Mar 18, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Sinners die at the lake of fire. It is the 2nd death, not eternal life burning.

*Blind post, just FYI.

There are some Biblical reasons why the church has always taught "eternal life burning" for the reprobate. Along with Daniel 12 that Michael already mentioned, here are a few others:

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mark 9
47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Revelation 14
11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20
10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

--David

mmksparbud · Mar 18, 2019

friend of said:
@eleos1954

What do you make of Mark 9:44?

Where did the rich man go in the Lazarus story?

It was a parable. Said for the Pharisees who were covetous and unbelievers.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Jesus said "though one rose from the dead." This is not about the state of the dead, but of unbelief.

Luk 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
Luk 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The real Lazarus did die. And Jesus raised him. Jesus said Lazarus was asleep and He was going to wake him. If he went directly to heaven, why bring him back, if he was in hell---why wait so long while he was being tortured? The real Lazarus, nor any other that was raised from the dead---ever said one word about it.
You really think the saved go to the bosom of Abraham?---that would be one mighty big bosom! If there is a great gulf fixed between the saved dead and the wicked dead---how could those 2 be talking to each other? You really think a drop of water in hell fire is going to do anything to sooth any suffering?

St_Worm2 · Mar 18, 2019

mmksparbud said:
No where does the bible say anything about spiritual death.

"Spiritual" death is at least implied in several places in the Bible. Here is one of them:

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

If those outside of Christ are not "dead" SPIRITUALLY, what do you believe the passage above is referring to (IOW, in what other way could those who are physically alive outside of Christ be considered to be "dead")?

Thanks!

--David

mmksparbud · Mar 18, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
*Blind post, just FYI.

There are some Biblical reasons why the church has always taught "eternal life burning" for the reprobate. Along with Daniel 12 that Michael already mentioned, here are a few others:

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.’
44 Then they themselves also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?’
45 Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’
46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Mark 9
47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,
48 where THEIR WORM DOES NOT DIE, AND THE FIRE IS NOT QUENCHED.

Revelation 14
11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Revelation 20
10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

--David

Yes--I know all those. Not a one stands up to scrutiny. Not one verse says the wicked are given eternal life. There are many more that indicate death is not living forever. ternal life is given to the saved.

oh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There are many instances where the word forever is used but it does not mean forever. Hannah gave her son to work in the temple "forever." It meant till death. Servants who stayed with their masters were to stay with their masters "forever."--it meant till death-- There are at least 30 verses that indicate annihilation--do I need to post them all---that will take---"forever!"

mathinspiration · Mar 18, 2019

He did.

mmksparbud · Mar 18, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
"Spiritual" death is at least implied in several places in the Bible. Here is one of them:

Ephesians 2
1 You were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

If those outside of Christ are not "dead" SPIRITUALLY, what do you believe the passage above is referring to (IOW, in what other way could those who are physically alive outside of Christ be considered to be "dead")?

Thanks!

--David

Gen_2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Gen_6:17 And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
Gen_7:15 And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen_7:22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Adam became a living soul when God breathed into him. It is the same breath that God gave to all living things. It is what spirit means--breath of life. It is what goes back to God who gave it, it is what Jesus gave back to God when He died.

Anguspure · Mar 18, 2019

Nicolaus Mourer said:
The prophecy of Jonah, which is of Christ, says that he was beneath the mountains, and the bars of the earth imprisoned him. That is obviously a reference to him being in Hell. After all, Isaiah 53 says his SOUL was made an offering of sin.

The word translated "soul" which is "nephesh" simply means "life", and in the Bible everything that is alive has "nephesh".

Call me Nic · Mar 18, 2019

Anguspure said:
The word translated "soul" which is "nephesh" simply means "life", and in the Bible everything that is alive has "nephesh".

Acts 2:31 “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his SOUL was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”

miknik5 · Mar 18, 2019

7bjoern7 said:
Hi.

This is a serious question. Im questioning everything at the moment, maybe its just a crisis, maybe the Holy Spirit is guiding me, because i pray to be led in all truth and to see all lies...

If Jesus took my punishment - hell for eternity - why then got he resurrected to sit on the throne? Even tho he was without sin... if he takes my punishment it must be the same punishment or not?

The old testament says that the punishment for sin is death. "If you eat from the tree of knowledge, you must die", not "you must go to hell".

I mean... Jesus took a lot of damage and pain for us. But what is that compared for one person being burned alive for eternity?

Please don't answer to just trust that all this is just rightous, and Iam too human to comprehend it. There is too much deception going on and Im no longer willing to accept anything blindly.

Because He had to open THE DOOR between heaven and earth through the TRUE VEIL which stands between God and man
His body

Jesus did this for us yet some don’t accept this because as the Word says, they see the preaching of The Cross as foolishness that one layed down His life for us and that by believing in Him, we have life

Further, When God said, in the day you eat of it, you will die, it already is clear from His Words, “in the day that you eat of it” (showing that God already foresaw that there would be a day that we would eat even when we were told not to) that He still went ahead creating mankind, knowing we’d sin, because He more importantly foreknew that He would send His Son to do for us what we could not do for ourselves, so that those who would believe in Him and His finished work, would live

miknik5 · Mar 18, 2019

eleos1954 said:
***
Torment in Hell ... No

Psalm 1:6 “But the way of the ungodly shall perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Psalm 37:20 “But the wicked shall perish… they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” (consume - totally destroyed)

Perish (singular - not perishing ) suffer complete ruin or destruction.

Psalm 69:28 says that the wicked are “blotted out of the book of the living.” (they will not receive eternal life)

Ps. 34:16, 21 “evil brings death to the wicked.” (2nd death)

Psalm 92:7 “… shall be destroyed forever.” (self-explanatory)

Prov. 24:20 “the lamp of the wicked will be snuffed out.” (will not contune life)

Dan. 2:35 “the wind swept them away without leaving a trace.” (no trace of the wicked totally gone)

Isa. 1:28, 30–31 “rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the Lord shall be consumed.” (consumed - totally destroyed)

Obadiah 1:16 It will be as if the evil “had never been.“ (non-existent)

Mal 4:1 “All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and the day that is coming will set them on fire,” says the LORD Almighty. “Not a root or a branch will be left to them.” (they will be totally burned up - destroyed by fire)

Matthew 10:28 “Rather, fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.”

Here Jesus himself teaches against hell– saying that those who are lost experience the death of their soul. If one believes in eternal conscious hell, they believe Jesus was wrong on this point, and that souls don’t die at all, but will live forever in hell.

John 3:16 “…whosoever believeth in him should not perish (singular)” (2nd death)

Matthew 7:13: “broad is the road that leads to destruction“ (totally destroyed)

Philippians 3:19 “whose end is destruction…“ (destroyed)

2 Thessalonians 1:9 “who shall be punished with everlasting destruction …” (destroyed - never to live again)

1 Cor 3:17: “God will destroy that person”

2 Cor 2:15-16: “those that perish“ (2nd death)

Romans 6:23: “For the wages of sin is death..“ (2nd death)

James 4:12a “There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.”

2 Peter 2:3: “Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.” (the unsaved in the grave will face destruction) 2nd resurrection

Revelation 20:9

(9) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Those who believe in eternal conscious hell don’t believe in the second death– they believe everyone is immortal non the less, and that some will live forever in hell.

Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death…”

Death is Death ... cease to exist. The first death (earthly death) is temporal ... the 2nd death (of the lost) is final and for eternity (totally destroyed - cease to exist).

We do not have a loving God who tortures people for eternity.

1 Corinthians 15:26
And the last enemy to be destroyed is death.

Exist with God for eternity (through Christ) or cease to exist, be destroyed.

Can you explain what it means where scripture says. “Where their worm will not die”

mmksparbud · Mar 18, 2019

Nicolaus Mourer said:
Acts 2:31 “He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his SOUL was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.”

Not left in the grave.

miknik5 · Mar 18, 2019

7bjoern7 said:
Hi.

This is a serious question. Im questioning everything at the moment, maybe its just a crisis, maybe the Holy Spirit is guiding me, because i pray to be led in all truth and to see all lies...

If Jesus took my punishment - hell for eternity - why then got he resurrected to sit on the throne? Even tho he was without sin... if he takes my punishment it must be the same punishment or not?

The old testament says that the punishment for sin is death. "If you eat from the tree of knowledge, you must die", not "you must go to hell".

I mean... Jesus took a lot of damage and pain for us. But what is that compared for one person being burned alive for eternity?

Please don't answer to just trust that all this is just rightous, and Iam too human to comprehend it. There is too much deception going on and Im no longer willing to accept anything blindly.

He did, by the way, descend to Hell. All for the purpose of redeeming those who had died prior to His physical coming into the world. He preached to those dead souls held in captivity and those who heard who had been waiting for the promise, ascended with Him when “He led captivity in his train”

You can be sure, that He emptied that prison and took back the keys to death and hades. This is why The Gospel is preached now that all who may hear and believe shall live

Because though all will die once (physically dead) not all will suffer the second death (spiritually dead)

friend of · Mar 18, 2019

@mmksparbud

You are ignoring Luke 16:23. It states the rich man looked up, being in torment.

friend of · Mar 18, 2019

mmksparbud said:
You really think a drop of water in hell fire is going to do anything to sooth any suffering?

He was asking for a momentary reprieve of his suffering. That's what it means.

St_Worm2 · Mar 18, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Yes--I know all those. Not a one stands up to scrutiny. Not one verse says the wicked are given eternal life. There are many more that indicate death is not living forever. Eternal life is given to the saved.

oh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

There are many instances where the word forever is used but it does not mean forever. Hannah gave her son to work in the temple "forever." It meant till death. Servants who stayed with their masters were to stay with their masters "forever."--it meant till death-- There are at least 30 verses that indicate annihilation--do I need to post them all---that will take---"forever!"

Eternal life = living eternally in the presence of God in the age to come.

Eternal death = being eternally separated from God in the age to come.

You don't need to post the verses that seem to teach annihilation. This is not a verse contest where we see if one verse "beats" another

The thing is, when a verse says something like this,

Revelation 20
10 ... the false prophet ... will be tormented day and night forever and ever (in the lake of fire and brimstone),

it becomes important to reconcile what that means (not just dismiss it because another verse 'seems' to say something else). And you must admit, the phrase, "tormented day and night forever and ever", which concerns the final Judgment and the Lake of Fire (and includes two qualifying phrases to help clarify the meaning), is VASTLY different from Hannah permanently giving up her right to be Samuel's full-time mother).

--David

mmksparbud · Mar 18, 2019

friend of said:
@mmksparbud

You are ignoring Luke 16:23. It states the rich man looked up, being in torment.

I'm not ignoring anything. If you want to think that this means hell is somewhere in the lower bowels of the earth and rich man looked all the way up into heaven and saw Lazarus in Abrahams bosom, well, then you certainly can do so. That is pretty good eyesight for a sinner in a smoky furnace.

mmksparbud · Mar 18, 2019

friend of said:
He was asking for a momentary reprieve of his suffering. That's what it means.

So you don't take it literal either?

friend of · Mar 18, 2019

mmksparbud said:
I'm not ignoring anything. If you want to think that this means hell is somewhere in the lower bowels of the earth and rich man looked all the way up into heaven and saw Lazarus in Abrahams bosom, well, then you certainly can do so. That is pretty good eyesight for a sinner in a smoky furnace.

You are being too literal. Jesus told the story and in it the rich man died and was not annihilated. This part we can take literally.

What is your interpretation of Mark 9:44?

mmksparbud · Mar 18, 2019

St_Worm2 said:
Eternal life = living eternally in the presence of God in the age to come.

Eternal death = being eternally separated from God in the age to come.

You don't need to post the verses that seem to teach annihilation. This is not a verse contest where we see if one verse "beats" another

The thing is, when a verses says something like this,

Revelation 20
10 ... the false prophet ... will be tormented day and night forever and ever (in the lake of fire and brimstone),

it becomes important to reconcile what that means (not just dismiss it because another verse 'seems' to say something else). And you must admit, the phrase, "tormented day and night forever and ever", which concerns the final Judgment and the Lake of Fire (which is a Biblical "forever" + the addition of two qualifying phrases as well), is VASTLY different from Hannah permanently giving up her right to be Samuel's full-time mother).

--David

Then when a verse says destruction it means destruction, when it means death it means death. Death---the absence of life. The absence of living breath. Forever isz forever in your mind so Hannah gave her son to work in the temple forever.
Gen_44:32 For thy servant became surety for the lad unto my father, saying, If I bring him not unto thee, then I shall bear the blame to my father for ever.
Exo_21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Lev_25:46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.
1Sa_2:32 And thou shalt see an enemy in my habitation, in all the wealth which God shall give Israel: and there shall not be an old man in thine house for ever.
ud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Sodom and Gomorrah are not still burning.

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

It is only the beast, the false prophet and the devil that are tormented "forever."

friend of · Mar 18, 2019

mmksparbud said:
It is only the beast, the false prophet and the devil that are tormented "forever."

Matthew 25:41

If Jesus took the punishment for all sinners, why doesn't he go to Hell?

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