A deed is something you do. Repentance fits that. It would be a deed of righteousness. He’s saying that there’s nothing we can do that’s worthy of salvation.
Somehow, despite evidence to the contrary, you keep finding that one thing.
There are many things God predestines and so they will happen just as He planned. Everything else is perfectly foreknown by God from the beginning of time, but that does not mean God foreordained everything to happen. God can tell Paul what will happen to him and what he must/will do in Paul’s future. Paul’s future is an unchangeable historic happening for God at the end of time, but since God is outside of time and omnipresent all the historic happenings of humans are known perfectly by God throughout all of time.
You bring up an excellent point about the fact there are many Christians at different Spiritual levels, instead of God making the huge difference and making all Christians really Christ like.Perhaps, but consider this Psalm from David (Psalm 139:16).
It says:
"Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them."
It does make you wonder. That if all of the days formed for us are written down in a book (David doesn't specify which one unfortunately and there are many books that God has written) before one of them came to be, if we really can live against God's will. In my personal experience during the worst of times during my childhood after my family moved to New York from Ontario and my dad used to physically and verbally abuse me nearly everyday up until I was about 27 years old. I wondered this nearly every day I believed in God. Then all of a sudden God finds and changes me a little over a year later at just the right time in my life. And a few months later I meet my wife at just the right time in her life and my life (She was 21 years old and the year before had been dating someone else for a few years. And if I met her when she was 18 my father in law probably wouldn't have given her the freedom to marry me). I also over the years have pursued a degree in Computer science over 6 times. I've failed to get one all six times, and if I had a degree in Computer Science I wouldn't be able to serve God as I do today. It does make you wonder. If I failed at life or if God had me just the way he wanted me at just the time he wanted me.
It does seem strange that each and every person who God means to be an ambassador for him, is one and does much fruitful work. And then there are lazy but maybe still saved Christians out there. Why wouldn't every Christian out there want to work for Christ and get all kinds of eternal heavenly rewards and be praised by God instead of being rebuked by him? Shouldn't all of us want to appear before Christ unashamed?
I'll respond to your last question first. If all means ALL then I would have to concede that even Satan and his angels will be eventually reconciled to God although I'm not comfortable with that idea but I think consistency is requisite.
The basic question boils down to this: Is God sovereign? If God, the creator of all things is omniscient and omnipotent among other things, can He accomplish whatever he desires/wills? I think the answer to those questions is yes.
If this be true then we need to scrutinize the scriptures to determine what is God's will and purpose for His creation and use that as the basis and foundation for formulating our doctrinal views, in this case regarding soteriology. You believe that the doxologies are not soteriologic but Christologic. I believe that to be a logical fallacy (either-or) argument as it is not one other the other, but both. Because the Lamb is worthy of all honor, glory, etc., all will thus bow down to Him. The former does not negate the latter.
It seems to me that we have put the cart before the horse. We acknowledge that God loves the whole world and wants all men to be saved yet we deny that His attributes are able to accomplish His stated purpose. What is His stated purpose?
For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Col 1:19-20
Since reconciliation is God's stated goal, the whole of Scripture as well as our beliefs must align itself with God's stated goal. Our current, popular soteriological beliefs do not conform with God' stated purpose as the popular belief is that only a minority of souls, and a small minority at that, will ultimately be reconciled with God. Something is wrong with this picture.
Regarding the Isaiah passage. When do you suppose this takes place? "Survivors of the nations" is a reference to the future when Jesus returns to earth at his 2nd coming as described in Matt 25:31-46. This passage refers the the sheep and goat nations/gentiles who survived the tribulation and are still alive at Jesus' return. The surviving gentiles/sheep who did good to the brethren during the tribulation are allowed to live in the Millennial kingdom as their reward (v.34) while the surviving gentiles/goats who did bad to the brethren during the tribulation are sent to the lake of fire (v.41). The goats here are the ones referenced to in Isa 45:24 as being "ashamed all who were incensed against him." Note also that Isa 45:25 states that all of Israel shall be JUSTIFIED and shall glory." All means ALL.
Thus the purpose of the Millennial age is to give the surviving gentiles the opportunity to turn to God and be saved (Isa 45:22). It is also the age of time when all of Israel will be saved as prophesied in such verses as Rom 11:26-27; Jer 31:33-34; Zech 8:7-8.
Thus we see God working out his purpose to save and reconcile all to Himself accomplished through ages of time with each age have his specific plan for different groups of people.
Nothing there says that repentance precedes regeneration.
After hearing the Gospel, you must repent first before you can ever believe Jesus.
However to be regenerated by the Spirit, your faith must be genuine - a faith in which you renounce the old life and then follow Jesus – which is to walk in the Spirit, because the Spirit will only lead those who
I am guessing you are referring to this part: "...he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver to those all who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." The Greek word for destroy is katargeo.I am curious to hear your thoughts on Hebrews 2:14-18.
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. - Hebrews 2:14-18 (ESV)
I agree with you. He deserves all glory and honor that is due to Him by all creatures he has made as you stated. The difference though is that you have to qualify your statement "by all creatures he has made" (in regards to humans) as pertaining only to those humans who are saved/believed. My view requires no qualification or caveat as "all" will eventually bow their knees and confess that Jesus is Lord with their tongues.I do not think that Revelation 5:13 excludes a soteriologic interpretation because it is Christologic, rather I do not believe that the context frames it in a soteriologic setting. The purpose of Revelation 5 to my eyes is to show that Christ is supreme over all creation and that all glory and honor is due him, and ultimately will be given to him, by all creatures he has made.
Indeed we disagree. My question to you though is that how can all things be brought "into harmony with Christ by his blood" when those in the lake of fire are either eternally tormented or ultimately annihilated as popularly believed? Either option does not allow for harmony with Christ as they are forever separated from Christ.Friend, we would seem to differ here on what reconciliation means in the context of Colossians 1:19-20. I think Paul is communicating that all things will be brought under subjection and into harmony with Christ by his blood. In other words, Christ is the one through whom God is pleased to subdue his adversaries and redeem his elect. Reconciliation intimates the total victory that God accomplished on the cross.
Yes given our disparate views it would be mixing apples with oranges. However here is some food for thought. One of the reasons I believe in a future, literal millennial kingdom of God on earth with Jesus as its ruler is verses like Rev 2:26. And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.I think this broaches a topic that I am not at present adequately equipped to address fully. Briefly, I do not hold a premillennial eschatology or a dispensational hermeneutic. I believe that the millennial kingdom is the present reign of Christ at the right hand of the Father, a position he assumed at his ascension and will maintain until he returns to judge the living and the dead. The Old Testament presents eschatological scenery veiled in types and shadows. Properly interpreting it requires us to understand how Christ and the apostles in the New Testament reveal what was concealed in the Old. However, I have not sufficient knowledge to properly expound on these things and will respect your views as stated.
Why would someone even think they needed to repent if the didn’t believe Jesus was who He said He was?
If you have faith, you are justified. So in your theology, justification precedes regeneration.
And @Neostarwcc < since you started this thread.As seen above, katargeō has a range of meaning from to render useless or to destroy/annihilate. Given my belief, "render useless" makes sense as the devil is ultimately not destroyed but is instead rendered useless, unproductive, unprofitable and powerless as defined above.
Thank you for your reasoned replies as I appreciate the tenor of your responses.
You wrote:
I am guessing you are referring to this part: "...he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver to those all who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." The Greek word for destroy is katargeo.
καταργέω (katargeō)
Strong: G2673
GK: G2934
to render useless or unproductive, occupy unprofitable, Lk. 13:7; to render powerless, Rom. 6:6; to make empty and unmeaning, Rom. 4:14; to render null, to abrogate, cancel, Rom. 3:3, 31; Eph. 2:15; to bring to an end, 1 Cor. 2:6; 13:8; 15:24, 26; 2 Cor. 3:7; to destroy, annihilate, 2 Thess. 2:8; Heb. 2:14; to free from, dissever from, Rom. 7:2, 6; Gal. 5:4
As seen above, katargeō has a range of meaning from to render useless or to destroy/annihilate. Given my belief, "render useless" makes sense as the devil is ultimately not destroyed but is instead rendered useless, unproductive, unprofitable and powerless as defined above.
Also interesting is the last part of that verse which references "all who were through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery." I take the word all to mean ALL as we were all at one time in fear of death and subject to lifelong slavery. Therefore Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of ALL the people.
I agree with you. He deserves all glory and honor that is due to Him by all creatures he has made as you stated. The difference though is that you have to qualify your statement "by all creatures he has made" (in regards to humans) as pertaining only to those humans who are saved/believed. My view requires no qualification or caveat as "all" will eventually bow their knees and confess that Jesus is Lord with their tongues.
Indeed we disagree. My question to you though is that how can all things be brought "into harmony with Christ by his blood" when those in the lake of fire are either eternally tormented or ultimately annihilated as popularly believed? Either option does not allow for harmony with Christ as they are forever separated from Christ.
Yes given our disparate views it would be mixing apples with oranges. However here is some food for thought. One of the reasons I believe in a future, literal millennial kingdom of God on earth with Jesus as its ruler is verses like Rev 2:26. And to the one who overcomes and continues in My work until the end, I will give authority over the nations.
Jesus is addressing the church/saints and promises them authority over the nations/gentiles provided they overcome. In my opinion, this occurs during the millennium. It has not occurred in the past, nor in the present and thus awaits its fulfillment in the future. It happens after the tribulation period.
Rev 21:4 Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Of course! And you have been gentlemanly in your thoughtful replies, which have been greatly edifying.
My sincere apologies for not clarifying my question! I hope it was not too much trouble to look up the Greek and all those references. I present the text again with my interpretation.
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. - Hebrews 2:14-18 (ESV)
I think the author of Hebrews is demonstrating the necessity of the incarnation of the Son in order that he might intercede as a “merciful and faithful high priest” and “propitiate for the sins of the people”. To clarify this point, the writer states that “it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham”. Who are those offspring? I reckon them the elect of God from all tribes, tongues, and nations. If so, then it seems that angels and humans are distinguished as to object of the intercessory and propitiatory work of Christ. Christ took on human flesh to bear the burden of human sin. The angelic realm is excluded from his redemptive work, which I think would undermine the position that universal reconciliation, inclusive of the devil and his angels, indicates universal salvation.
Let me know if that makes sense. I look forward to your thoughts!
I think the referent of “all those” in verse 15 are the “children” at the beginning of verse 14. These same are referred to as the “offspring of Abraham” in verse 16. My interpretation from above would not see the “all” as every individual person who has ever lived, but every person whom the Father has given to the Son. These he calls his children and are offspring of Abraham by faith.
Allow me to put forth an alternative. I suggest that bowing the knee and confessing Jesus as Lord is not something that only the saints can do. I hold that the reprobate can, and will, do this very thing, though they will not do so in loving submission to the Son. I would agree with you that “all” will eventually bow their knees and confess. However, I think that this will happen in one of two ways, either out of love for Christ or out of overwhelming, yet impenitent awe of his Lordship.
Great question! I see reconciliation as referring to the victory of Christ over all things so that they are subjected to him, either willingly or not. For believers, this means redemption and adoption as sons. For unbelievers, this means condemnation and rejection as reprobate. If I may take liberty in inferring your position, it seems to me that you view reconciliation as equivalent to salvation. I think this may be the root of our disagreement. Forgive me in advance if I have misinterpreted you.
Thank you for sharing this as well! A thorough response would take me a lot of effort and far away from the topic at hand. I am happy to leave it that, if you would not mind, and consider what you have posted as food for thought.
setst RE: The offspring of Abraham are those through history that would also believe like Abraham did.
Galatians 3:6-9 (WEB) 6 Even so, Abraham “believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.” [Genesis 15:6] 7 Know therefore that those who are of faith are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the Good News beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you all the nations will be blessed.” [Genesis 12:3; 18:18; 22:18] 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.
God, therefore, foresaw and chooses to save those who have the same faith that Abraham had. The humble will believe, while the proud will be obstinate in their own flesh.
Therefore,
Christ Jesus was sent to preach the Gospel to the humble - the spiritually crushed and heavy laden with sin and shame (Luke 4:18-19; Isaiah 61:1-2; Matthew 11:4-5; Matthew 11:28). These are the sheep God promised to save out of the world.
Blessings,
Steven
Steven, your reply is welcomed!
I agree with you that "The offspring of Abraham are those through history that would also believe like Abraham did", but I do not think that it follows that "God, therefore, foresaw and chooses to save those who have the same faith that had". My view is that God, in eternity, chose a people for himself and predestined them to be redeemed by his Son apart from anything in or done by themselves. In other words, God did not choose his elect based on passive foreknowledge of who would have faith. He chose them according to the purpose of his sovereign will alone.
Okay. But you said repentance comes before faith. Why would someone repent if they don’t believe that they need to?That was the reason for the Gospel - to teach them these things.
Romans 10:17 (WEB) 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Why are you assuming that those who are thirsty aren’t regenerated?That is true. Consider Abraham, and all those who put their faith in God in the Old Covenant... They all did so before the New Covenant in the Spirit; yet, all of them God justified by faith. Regeneration is a New Covenant Gospel reality that was not available in the Old Covenant.
John 7:37-39 (WEB)
... 37 Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! [Note: Lord Jesus command those who are thirsty to come and drink]
... 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 ... ... But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive. For the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus wasn’t yet glorified.
I suggest you study the meaning of aiōnion. It is the adjectival form of the noun aiōn which means "age." Thus this adjective modifies "age" which is a finite, not unlimited span of time. Therefore aiōnion cannot mean "everlasting." Thus an accurate translation is "age-during" as in Young's Literal Translation.And @Neostarwcc < since you started this thread.
Paul says ones will be "punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" > in 2 Thessalonians 1:9.
Thanks for your replies. Yes it seems to boil down to how we define what it means to be reconciled to God. Since we start at different assumptions then our definitions follow suit resulting in difference of opinion. You are correct in assuming that my view equates reconciliation with salvation. Given our different starting points, perhaps I can address your objections in the following manner to better define my position. I've posted this before but don't know whether you've read it.Of course! And you have been gentlemanly in your thoughtful replies, which have been greatly edifying.
My sincere apologies for not clarifying my question! I hope it was not too much trouble to look up the Greek and all those references. I present the text again with my interpretation.
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted. - Hebrews 2:14-18 (ESV)
I think the author of Hebrews is demonstrating the necessity of the incarnation of the Son in order that he might intercede as a “merciful and faithful high priest” and “propitiate for the sins of the people”. To clarify this point, the writer states that “it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham”. Who are those offspring? I reckon them the elect of God from all tribes, tongues, and nations. If so, then it seems that angels and humans are distinguished as to the object of the intercessory and propitiatory work of Christ. Christ took on human flesh to bear the burden of human sin. The angelic realm is excluded from his redemptive work, which I think would undermine the position that universal reconciliation, inclusive of the devil and his angels, indicates universal salvation.
Let me know if that makes sense. I look forward to your thoughts!
I think the referent of “all those” in verse 15 are the “children” at the beginning of verse 14. These same are referred to as the “offspring of Abraham” in verse 16. My interpretation from above would not see the “all” as every individual person who has ever lived, but every person whom the Father has given to the Son. These he calls his children and are offspring of Abraham by faith.
Allow me to put forth an alternative. I suggest that bowing the knee and confessing Jesus as Lord is not something that only the saints can do. I hold that the reprobate can, and will, do this very thing, though they will not do so in loving submission to the Son. I would agree with you that “all” will eventually bow their knees and confess. However, I think that this will happen in one of two ways, either out of love for Christ or out of overwhelming, yet impenitent awe of his Lordship.
Great question! I see reconciliation as referring to the victory of Christ over all things so that they are subjected to him, either willingly or not. For believers, this means redemption and adoption as sons. For unbelievers, this means condemnation and rejection as reprobate. If I may take liberty in inferring your position, it seems to me that you view reconciliation as equivalent to salvation. I think this may be the root of our disagreement. Forgive me in advance if I have misinterpreted you.
Thank you for sharing this as well! A thorough response would take me a lot of effort and far away from the topic at hand. I am happy to leave it that, if you would not mind, and consider what you have posted as food for thought.
Why when Christ was ministering did he only refer to humanity in two categories Sheep (those who are under Gods grace and are written in the book of life) and Goats? (Those who are not written and suffer judgement for sinning against God)
Why did Jesus say in John 10 that he willingly is giving his life for the sheep? And that he will "give my life for the sheep?"
If everybody can freely come to Jesus why did Jesus plainly say that nobody can come to him unless God the Father unhardens their heart and grants it to them? John 6:44, 66.
I know John says in 1 john that Christ died for the sins of the whole world but there have been valid arguments around that for over 500 years now? Why are those arguments not considered or being considered as valid interpretations of scripture? And why is it the only verse in the bible that says that Jesus died for all?
If Christ died for the world why did he say during his famous prayer just before he was handed over to pilate in John 17:1-10 that he was not praying for the world but "for those you have given me for they are yours" and previously from that all he talks about in his prayer are those who God the Father has given him?
Why would God even have written a book of life from before the foundation of the world which contained the very sheep of God? If he didnt die for the sheep? To explain myself further what would be the point of him suffering for the sins of the whole world if only those written in his book inherit salvation?
Why does all of Roman's 9 support this point?
If God died for the entire world tgan why hasnt the entire world been given the chance ag salvation? People cannot deny that there are people called and considered "doomed" in scripture. Like the entire world in Noah's time when they refused to go into Noah's arc and believe him that the flood was coming. God said that he regretted making them and that they will perish. Also, if they had hope, why did God seal the door shut? Did they honestly have the chance at salvation? What about Judas,Pilate, the Pharisees and the very soldiers that tortured and crucified Jesus making salvation possible for you and I? True Jesus said "forgive them" but in other instances of scripture they were called without hope so that the glory of God may be revealed.
Also, notice during his 3 days in sheol Jesus only rescued the "righteous" dead and left the unrighteous dead there. If he left them there, not only why does God call them doomed but why didnt he give them the chance at salvation if everyone has the chance of getting saved? Why did Isaiah prophecy that most of israel was not Israel and would perish? Was there hope of salvation for them? When Isaiah called them doomed to destruction?
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