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If Jesus died for the world why does most of scripture say the opposite?

Discussion in 'General Theology' started by Neostarwcc, May 12, 2020.

  1. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Edited: I'll be back later with an hopefully improved reply :)

    Sometimes I shoot first, then draw ^_^
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  2. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    So you ARE my brother. :D
     
  3. zoidar

    zoidar Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I believe to fully understand Romans 8:6-8 we need to study the whole chapter. I don't think it explains if a man of flesh can repent or not, but rather that the man of flesh focuses on the things of the world, where the man of Spirit focus on the things of God.

    Romans 8:4
    so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.


    I think the point is that those of flesh can't and won't walk by the Spirit but those born again can. I don't think that it says a heart of flesh can't repent, that would IMO be reading in more than it says.
     
  4. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    But I also have another post that supports this same thing in two other places. And I haven’t even posted Romans 3:10-19 yet.

    So what happening is that I’m posting scripture, in context, that states how someone in the flesh acts, and is by nature. But without any scripture to show different, you just keep making the same assertion that there’s at least one good thing that the unregenerate can do.

    I’m kinda at at loss right now on where to go from here.
     
  5. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    This is your interpretation that is not represented in the context. Let me explain, and then you can respond.

    Paul wrote his letters to the Christian churches as instruction, admonishment, and warning.

    In Paul's letter to the Romans, We know that Paul was discussing both options - walking in the flesh and walking in the Spirit - as a possibility for Christians because of the following:

    Romans 8:12-13
    12 Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. 13 For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.

    Notice in the above Passage that Paul is instruction the "brothers" - a warning and obligation to them to remain faithful to live in the Spirit to receive life, because if they did not do so they would die.

    Then, we see in Galatians the same warning and teaching by Paul to the Church of Galatia - warning them not to gain to the flesh, as follows:

    Galatians 5:13-25 (WEB)
    13 For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only don’t use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another. 14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” [Leviticus 19:18] 15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don’t consume one another.
    16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. 19 Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.
    22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
    24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.
    25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

    Notice in the above instruction, Paul is warning the Galatians not to use there freedom in Christ to gain to the flesh, and to stop their back-biting, lest they destroy themselves. Paul summarizes that point with the admonishment to walk in the Spirit so they will not fulfill the desires of the flesh.

    Then Paul continues by listing the sins of those who are giving into the flesh as an example, and again warns the Church again - with a double warning directed to the Galatians - that those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    Therefore, Paul reminds them that belonging to Christ means they have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts, with a warning to walk in step with the Spirit they are suppose to live by.

    Then we see in the same letter to the Galatians another warning from the Apostle Paul to the Church not to be deceived, that God will not be mocked - that they must reap to the Spirit to receive eternal life. And if they reap to the flesh, then this will lead to their corruption...

    Paul's instruction to the Church in Galatia regarding this very thing:

    Galatians 6:8 (WEB)
    7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.
    8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let US not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest IF WE do not give up. 10 So then, as we have opportunity, let us do what is good toward all men, and especially toward those who are of the household of the faith.

    Notice, that Paul is specifically admonishing, warning and teaching the Church of Galatia, of whom Paul wrote the letter to. Urging them not to give up.

    Blessings,
    Steven
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  6. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    If all you had was chapter 8, I might be inclined to agree. But that’s why I’ve taken it back to both chapters 5 and 6 of Romans. Chapter 7 does the same thing. Paul, in both, shows the contrast between those in Christ, and those not in Christ. So chapter 8 isn’t isolated. So in five, we have those in Adam and those in Christ. Chapter six we have those who are slaves to sin, and those who are slaves to righteousness. Chapter seven we have those who are married to the law, and those who are free from it by death. And chapter 8 we have, in my opinion, the summation of those arguments, starting with v. 1. For your view to be correct, we’d have to completely ignore those previous chapters. And I don’t think that’s wise.

    I’ll address your Galatians references in another post. I just wanted to show that there’s an extended context that stretches back before 8:1.
     
  7. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    “Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don’t be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing. Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the law. You have fallen away from grace. For we, through the Spirit, by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love. You were running well! Who interfered with you that you should not obey the truth? This persuasion is not from him who calls you. A little yeast grows through the whole lump. I have confidence toward you in the Lord that you will think no other way. But he who troubles you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brothers, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been removed. I wish that those who disturb you would cut themselves off. For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only don’t use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don’t consume one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won’t fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit. Let’s not become conceited, provoking one another, and envying one another.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:1-26‬ ‭WEB‬‬

    I posted all of chapter five so that we can have some better context.

    Verse one really sets it up.


    “Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don’t be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭WEB‬‬

    This whole section is Paul telling the readers to not live like they used to. They are now free. They may have thought they were free before they were saved, but we know that those in Christ are truly free. We are no longer in the flesh, but we still deal with the flesh (see Romans 6). And while he’s talking of circumcision, he’s really talking about being bound by a works theology. That never saves. I can go over that, but I’d like to jump to where you start.


    “For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only don’t use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:13‬ ‭WEB‬‬

    He’s telling them that using their freedom to gain the flesh is not a good thing (think Romans 6:1). And why is that? Because the flesh profits nothing. Unbelievers are in the flesh. They know that. We know that. But Paul wants to show them what those in the flesh are really like.


    “For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire.

    Now the deeds of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom.”
    ‭‭
    Those who practice those things have no part in the kingdom. Those in Christ don’t practice them (we are dead to sin), but we may occasionally still sin that way. But it’s not a practice because those in Christ repent of their sins.

    Now, contrast with those in Christ


    “But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:18, 22-24‬ ‭WEB‬‬

    If we belong to Christ, we’ve crucified the flesh. Unfortunately, we still live in these bodies, so it’s a struggle that we will have until we die.

    So going back to verse 1


    “Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don’t be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.”
    ‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:1‬ ‭WEB‬‬

    Paul is trying to help them to see that they are free. There’s no need to get involved with the flesh. And nothing good comes from it, so put those sinful deeds to death.
     
  8. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Regarding Romans, Paul is teaching many things as regards to the Faith, the Law, of Conscience, of the substance of faith as represented in Baptism, and of life in the Spirit as opposed to life under the Law. However, in the context of Romans 8 - for those Christians who are suppose to be living by the Spirit - Paul is specifically warning them of their obligation to continue to live by the Spirit to receive life, and not to the flesh which will lead to death.

    Will all the Roman Christians remain faithful to live by the Spirit and live? That is Paul's hope, which is why Paul is giving the warning with obligation to them to remain walking in the Spirit to receive life.

    Regarding Galatians 5 and 6, you are right in your analysis. Paul certainly is warning the Galatians that, although they have freedom from the Law by faith in Christ Jesus, he reminds them that they were saved from slavery to the flesh to walk in the Spirit. Therefore, they are not to give any opportunity to the flesh, and that they are do this by continuing to walk in the Spirit.

    Will all the Galatians remain faithful to walk in the Spirit, or will some again give in to fleshly lusts? Notice that Paul address those in the Church of Galatia who were backbiting, which is a fleshly act. That is the issue Paul is addressing with teaching, admonishment, and warning, with the promise of eternal life if they do not give up reaping to the Spirit - doing good to all.

    So, as I read Paul's admonishment to the Church of Rome, and the Church of Galatia, regarding life in the Spirit or death in the flesh, I am reading the letter as if I were one of the Church members of that day. I am seriously considering the instruction Paul gave, and I can remember when I have let the flesh get the best of me, and succumbed to its control. I can identify with what Paul is warning the Christians about. I therefore, am encouraged by the sober warning by Paul to remain faithful to live by the Spirit to receive life.

    Blessings.
     
  9. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I want to make sure I understand your position. Do you believe that someone in Christ can stop being in Christ? Is that what you think Paul is warning about?
     
  10. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Yes, definitely. The Scriptures are full of such warnings.

    For example:

    2 Corinthians 13:5 (WEB)
    5 Examine your own selves, whether you are in the faith. Test your own selves. Or don’t you know about your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified.

    1 Timothy 4:16 (WEB) Pay attention to yourself and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.

    1 Timothy 1:18-20 (WEB) 18 I commit this instruction to you, my child Timothy, according to the prophecies which were given to you before, that by them you may wage the good warfare, 19 holding faith and a good conscience, which some having thrust away made a shipwreck concerning the faith, 20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan, that they might be taught not to blaspheme.

    1 Corinthians 9:27 (WEB) 27 but I beat my body and bring it into submission, lest by any means, after I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected (disqualified).

    Hebrews 3:12-15 (WEB)
    12 Beware, brothers, lest perhaps there might be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God; 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called “today”, lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence firm to the end, 15 while it is said,

    Today if you will hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts, as in the rebellion.” [Psalm 95:7-8]

    Romans 11:22 (WEB)
    22 See then the goodness and severity of God. Toward those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

    Colossians 1:21-24 (WEB) 21 You, being in past times alienated and enemies in your mind in your evil deeds, 22 yet now he has reconciled in the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and without defect and blameless before him, 23 if it is so that you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the Good News which you heard, which is being proclaimed in all creation under heaven, of which I, Paul, was made a servant.

    Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let’s not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

    James 1:12-16 (WEB) 12 Blessed is a person who endures temptation, for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life, which the Lord promised to those who love him.

    James 4:7-8 (WEB) 7 Be subject therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners. Purify your hearts, you double-minded.

    1 Peter 4:18 (WEB) 18 “If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will happen to the ungodly and the sinner?” [Proverbs 11:31]

    2 Peter 1:9-11 (WEB) 9 For he who lacks these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be more diligent to make your calling and election sure; for if you do these things, you will never stumble. 11 For thus you will be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

    2 Peter 2:1-3 (WEB) 2 But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

    2 Peter 3:17 (WEB) 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing these things beforehand, beware, lest being carried away with the error of the wicked, you fall from your own steadfastness.

    Revelation 3:11 (WEB) 11 I am coming quickly! Hold firmly that which you have, so that no one takes your crown.

    Matthew 24:42-44 (WEB)
    42 Watch therefore, for you don’t know in what hour your Lord comes. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what watch of the night the thief was coming, he would have watched, and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore also be ready, for in an hour that you don’t expect, the Son of Man will come.

    John 14:21 (WEB) 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.”

    John 15:10 (WEB) 10 If you keep my commandments you will remain in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

    1 John 2:3-6 (WEB) 3 This is how we know that we know him: if we keep his commandments. 4 One who says, “I know him,” and doesn’t keep his commandments, is a liar, and the truth isn’t in him. 5 But God’s love has most certainly been perfected in whoever keeps his word. This is how we know that we are in him: 6 he who says he remains in him ought himself also to walk just like he walked.

    Revelation 3:4-5 (WEB) 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile (soil) their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    2 Thessalonians 1:4-11 (WEB) 4 So that we ourselves boast about you in the assemblies of God for your perseverance and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions which you endure. 5 This is an obvious sign of the righteous judgment of God, to the end that you may be counted worthy of God’s Kingdom, for which you also suffer.

    Ezekiel 33:11-12 (NIV) 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?
    12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’"

    Hebrews 10:19-31 (WEB)
    19 Having therefore, brothers, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh, 21 and having a great priest over God’s house, 22 let’s draw near with a true heart in fullness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and having our body washed with pure water, 23 let’s hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering; for he who promised is faithful.
    24 Let’s consider how to provoke one another to love and good works, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.
    26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which will devour the adversaries. 28 A man who disregards Moses’ law dies without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment do you think he will be judged worthy of who has trodden under-foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant with which he was sanctified an unholy thing, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance belongs to me. I will repay,” says the Lord. [Deuteronomy 32:35] Again, “The Lord will judge his people.” [Deuteronomy 32:36; Psalm 135:14] 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

    Regarding those who are cut off for not remaining faithful, here is a Passage that many in the Church try to pervert to mean anything and everything but what it clearly states in context. Let us take a serious look at this Passage. Note that this Passage is teaching the same thing that all the rest of the Scriptures are teaching in context. We have seen so many of these Scriptures already.

    Romans 11:19-22 (WEB)
    19 You (talking to each individual Gentile who is grafted in by faith) will say then, “Branches (plural - not nations of Israel but actual Jews) were broken off so that I (the individual gentiles) could be grafted in.”

    20 Granted. But they (plural for Jews) were broken off because of unbelief, and you (individual gentile Christians who were grafted in) stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid!

    21 For if God did not spare the natural branches (plural for Jews), he will not spare you (the individual Christian gentiles he is talking to that he grafted in by faith) either.

    22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you (the individual Christian gentiles he is talking to), provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you (the individual Christian gentiles he is talking to) also will be cut off.

    • Branches are individuals.
    • Gentiles are included (grafted in shoots into a domestic Olive Tree) by faith.

    How do we know this? Let us continue with the context of the analogy given. . .

    Romans 11:25... 25 Israel (Singular Nation) has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles (plural individual gentile believers) has come in.

    No Gentile nations here as some propose; but rather, individual Gentiles are being referred to.

    And there is only one Israel, not many nations of Israel as some propose.
    • Jews (branches) are broken off for lack of faith
    • Gentiles (individuals) are grafted in by faith,
    • but must remain faithful,
    • or be cut off for not remaining faithful,
    • For if God will cut off the natural branches for lack of faith, then how much more will God also cut off the wild shoot grafted that do not remain faithful.
    • That is why we must “be afraid,” which is a Godly fear, for God is a consuming fire.
    In light of what we just studied about being faithful or be cut off, consider the following Passages. .

    2 Thessalonians 1:11-12 (WEB) 11 To this end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire of goodness and work of faith with power, 12 that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Blessings
     
  11. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    At the risk of hand-waving, none of these say that a saved person can be lost. I just don’t have the time or inclination to deal with each one in context.
     
  12. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I take all the warnings by Lord Jesus, and all the Apostolic Writers, seriously - by teaching, warning, admonishment, and example, that those who are in the faith must remain faithful to the end to be saved, or they can be lost.

    Blessings.
     
  13. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I take the promises of my Father seriously. I refuse to live in fear.
     
  14. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    If we remain faithful, we have no one need fear, for all God's promises are ours by faith in Lord Jesus. However, a Godly fear helps us to remember that God is a consuming fire, and will judge righteously all those who do not remain faithful.

    Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB)
    ...3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
    ...5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
     
  15. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I trust God like my kids trust me.


    But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
    John 1:12-13


    For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
    Galatians 3:26


    But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
    Galatians 4:4-5


    See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.
    1 John 3:1

    I have no idea what your view of a father is, but mine is of one who’s love is greater than my sin and would never disown me.
     
  16. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    setst777 said:
    If we remain faithful, we have no one need fear, for all God's promises are ours by faith in Lord Jesus. However, a Godly fear helps us to remember that God is a consuming fire, and will judge righteously all those who do not remain faithful.

    Revelation 3:3-5 (WEB)
    ...3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If therefore you won’t watch, I will come as a thief, and you won’t know what hour I will come upon you. 4 Nevertheless you have a few names in Sardis that didn’t defile their garments. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy.
    ...5 He who overcomes will be arrayed in white garments, and I will in no way blot his name out of the book of life, and I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

    setst RE: We are children of God by faith. So, if your faith endures to the end, you remain His child.

    2 Timothy 2:10-16 (WEB)
    10 Therefore I endure all things for the chosen ones’ sake that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
    11 This saying is trustworthy:

    “For if we died with him, we will also live with him.
    12 If we endure, we will also reign with him.
    If we deny him, he also will deny us.
    13 If we are faithless, he remains faithful; for he can’t deny himself.”


    14 Remind them of these things, charging them in the sight of the Lord, that they don’t argue about words, to no profit, to the subverting of those who hear.

    setst RE: We are sons of God through faith in Jesus. Many will fall from the faith and be lost.

    setst RE: The adoption of sons is for those who repent, turn away from sin, and then turn to Jesus as their Lord and Savior whom they listen to and follow. Not everyone will remain faithful to the end, and will again be caught up in the things of this world in one sin or another. But those who remain faithful to the end will be saved.

    setst RE: We children of God by faith in Jesus. If you continue in the faith, then you remain a child of God.

    John 14:21 (WEB) 21 One who has my commandments and keeps them, that person is one who loves me. One who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him, and will reveal myself to him.”


    John 14:23 (WEB) 23 Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him.

    Blessings
     
  17. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    It’s honestly sad when people place the burdens on themselves to “remain” children. They really can’t see God as a Father. He’s no more than a hall monitor checking to see if everyone is behaving. There is no love.
     
  18. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    “For this reason he is the mediator of a new covenant, since a death has occurred for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, that those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.”
    ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:15‬ ‭WEB‬‬


    Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”
    John 10:25-30


    For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world⁠—our faith.
    1 John 5:4


    And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
    Ephesians 2:1-7


    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
    1 Peter 1:1-5
     
  19. setst777

    setst777 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I am just quoting God's Word. Either you believe or you don't. No human logic or sidestepping can change God's Word one iota.

    The assurance of salvation is only by a Gospel Faith in Lord Jesus, and to endure in the faith to the end. All the Scriptures place the responsibility of our faith on us - to remain faithful to inherit the promises of God. And many will not remain faithful and will be lost.

    Romans 6:19-22 (WEB)
    19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh, for as you presented your members as servants to uncleanness and to wickedness upon wickedness, even so now present your members as servants to righteousness for sanctification. 20 For when you were servants of sin, you were free from righteousness. 21 What fruit then did you have at that time in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now, being made free from sin and having become servants of God, you have your fruit of sanctification and the result of eternal life.

    Only one master – that is the acceptable faith: We are obligated to live by, walk in, or reap to the Spirit to receive life. When we commit, by choice, to renounce the old master and then live and walk by the Spirit, we are then led by the Spirit. We are led by the Spirit as we live by the Spirit - to listen to and follow Jesus – this is “Life” as children of God.

    John 10:27-28 (WEB) 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

    Matthew 28:19-20 (WEB) 19 Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I commanded you.

    Galatians 6:7-9 (WEB) 7 Don’t be deceived. God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption. But he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 Let us not be weary in doing good, for we will reap in due season, if we don’t give up.

    Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

    Romans 8:12-13 (WEB) 12 So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if you live after the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

    As you can see by these Scriptures, and many more,
    • The Spirit will not repent for you,
    • The Spirit will not believe for you,
    • The Spirit will not follow Jesus for you;
    Rather, you receive the Spirit by faith.

    You are to walk by the Spirit you received to become a new creature in Christ – dead to self, alive by following Christ Jesus.

    As we walk by the Spirit, the Spirit leads us to do God’s Will.

    We walk by the Spirit by walking as Lord Jesus did – to renounce the old life of sinful passions, and then to listen to and follow Him. As we do so, the Spirit leads our faith commitment to victory.

    Blessings
     
  20. Hammster

    Hammster Our weapons are Word, Water, Bread, Wine. Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    I believe His word. I don’t believe your interpretation. I refuse to live in fear because I believe He’s my Father, He’s given me to the Son, and the Spirit seals. I’m safe.
     
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