If you have a question, ask it. I'm not into reading the rants of others.
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If I'm an Atheist and I am not a bad person, will I go to hell?
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Re Applnokr's reference to Gamaliel, that is to say Gamaliel warned that if Jesus was a false prophet his teaching would come to nothing as many before him did. But if He was NOT a false prophet, then watch out, you are fighting against God. History has firmly answered Gamaliel's timeless challenge. His teaching clearly did NOT "come to nothing". Christ has moved whole populations across the planet.
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GoldenBoy89
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No more than not being a stamp collector requires there to be stamps for you not to collect. The only reason there a term for atheist odds because theist exist. If there were no theists, everyone would be atheist and we wouldn't have a name for it.
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Jesus did exist. He is recorded in the Talmud as well as by Herodotus and Josephus. But it is stunning to think you can't accept his existence as well established. Saul of Tarsus aka the Apostle Paul was an ardent opponent of Christians and had a lifelong career of limitless success being a Roman Citizen, having studied under Gamaliel, and was on the inside track to head the Sanhedrin, yet he threw it all away for Christ. And so it goes for so many who set out, in earnest, to settle the issue "once and for all" only to become powerful proponents of Christ. Christ has since moved whole populations across the planet based on who He was, not just what He taught. Because of what He said about himself, He was either a lunatic, a liar or He was who He said He was. You also said you've never done an evil thing in your life. I think you're redefining it then, but its not what we do that condemns us, its what we are. Long rabbit hole there but suffice to say Jesus finished his sermon on the mount with the admonition "be perfect as your father in heavan is perfect". There isn't anyone who can live up to that. No, we require the special saving dispensation of Christ dying on the cross for our sins. Accept that and the rest is easy. You have difficulty accepting that, however, for a variety of reasons a comprehensive program of anti-Bible propaganda. Is there a heavan and a hell? Most would have difficulty answering that but consider prophecy fulfilled. Israel didn't even exist for thousands of years yet prophecy had it in existence in the end times surrounded by its enemies seeking to destroy it and to make war against God himself (Psalm 2). Yet here we are today, it has all come true. Israel has risen out of the dry bones and is surrounded by Muslims who seek to make war against the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Israel). Its just one of many inexplicable conundrums for nonbeliever. I always gravitated toward scientific bases. In the 70s the exciting news in mathematics was that we exist in a universe that has (at least) 10 dimensions, possibly more. 30 years later it was demonstrated with the particle accelerators and it is generally now accepted that we do indeed live in a universe that has (at least) 10 dimensions. What is stunning to me is that when you go back to the 13th and 14th centuries to a couple rabbi sages named Moimonides and Nahmanides who concluded purely on their study of Genesis that we live in a universe of 10 dimensions, four of which are comprehendable and six of which are not, it cannot be a coincidence - too accurate, to well established, too impossible for them to know. If the Bible is not true, this is an amazing coincidence that two bible scholars 700 years ago would conclude this long before science or math could reveal anything about it. For years, those of us taught in a publicly funded education system never heard anything about the problems associated with evolution or the age of the earth. There are many and they remain unrefuted yet we are deliberately kept in the dark about it. Well, today, the most gifted minds like Steven Hawking (atheist) have abandoned any faith in the theory of evolution that has long outlived its 19th century viability as a functioning theory based upon the Cambrian explosion, the concept of irreducible complexity (e.g. chicken and the egg), the absence of sequential speciation, and so much more. Faith through evidence takes a lifetime of study that I don't propose to provide on this page, however, you need to be aware that this information is out there. You've missed it, and it is impossible for you to conclude atheism without considering it. You must begin the journey that so many began before you. If you do so in earnest, you will get to where I am. I'll leave you with the admonition of Gamaliel who warned that if Jesus was a false prophet his teaching would come to nothing as many before him did. But if He was NOT a false prophet, then watch out, you are fighting against God. History has firmly answered Gamaliel's timeless challenge. Christ’s teaching clearly did NOT "come to nothing". Christ has moved whole populations across the planet..
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Before creation, God lived in perfect Love. The Trinity was in Unity. The attributes of Holiness existed but could not be expressed. One of the attributes of Holiness is separation, represented by the tree in the garden (as an object lesson), and by light as a metaphor.
When Adam ate the fruit, he essentially said that he was equal to God; he could make his own rules. You may imagine that God is just a bully insisting that everyone follow his rules. But in reality, he desires an intimate relationship that cannot be had until you acknowledge the reality that he alone is God.
Adam made God out to be a peer. The rest of the Bible and the history of man is a history of different ways God has tried to convince man to give up on hios delusion of being a God, and enter into that intimate relationship in Truth. See Romans 1:18 and following. It tells how man already knows that God is God but refuses to acknowledge him as such.
So Bill and George both feed the poor. Bill does it because he thinks it is a good thing to do, and George does it because God says it is a good thing to do. Do they both do a good work? NO!
Bill does not acknowledge God as God, and considers himself equal to God, so he has missed the whole purpose of existence of entering into intimacy with God. It is only a coincidence that what God says is good agrees with Bill, so he has made himself equal to God. How can there be an intimate relationship under such delusion?
This is why the works that Christians do because THEY think it is good have no merit, and are actually sin if they have not considered God to be God in the decision. All our works are like filthy rags because they are 'our works' and not the works that God has created for us from the beginning. Cain's offering was rejected because it was fruit raised under the curse. Abel looked to get back into the garden by giving back his first lamb.
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It's not necessarily a rant, it's more of a short essay on my thoughts about all this. I'd just like a general response to the points I brought up. For the sake of discussion. Please.
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First, we have all sinned and fall short of the mark God has set for each of us. Can you honestly say you have never done evil in your entire life, what bad thoughts toward another person have crossed your mind, you may have never spoken them, you've deliberately hidden them. So have I and everybody else, Christian or not! Christians recognize that Jesus' sacrifice for mankind was God's unmerited favor toward all people living, a gift of grace, which none deserve, which can be either accepted or rejected.
The time of threshing is upon the earth, the separating of the good figs from the bad figs, the wheat from the chaff, the sheep from the goats. If one rejects the gift, a goat they will be, but will they go to hell, my answer is a resounding, NO! Because when Jesus returns the time of grace comes to an end, and His sheep belong to Him, they already have their names written in the Book Of Life, they are those of the First Resurrection and they are blessed. But His 1000 reign on earth has a reason, it will be a time of teaching, of being disciplined, in the ways of God, it will be another time for decision making, for by good works and choosing Jesus, before one has to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment determines eternity for them. If belief on Jesus and enough good works(going out amongst other goats and helping them come to Jesus) are written in the other books, then the goat becomes one of those of the Second Resurrection, and their names are then written in the Book of Life, they will then take part in God's eternal kingdom. Those that do not choose God will not be cast into an eternal hell, God would have no such place in His kingdom. The still unrepentant goats will suffer the same fate as the one they still desire to follow, Satan, being consumed with a fire from within, poof, in one second they go up in flame and smoke, spiritual body and soul vanish, forever. No one of the First or Second Resurrection will mourn, nor shed a tear for them, for God removes them from the consciousness of His children, it will simply be as if they had never existed. It is God's desire to save as many of His created souls as possible, by belief and grace, or by belief and works, He wants to win over all to Himself. You may not believe your a sinner now, and that the I AM THAT I AM and Satan, are a made up fairytale, but everyone will see where they stand in the eyes of Almighty God when Jesus touches His feet on the Mt. of Olives at His return and the threshing begins!
The time of threshing is upon the earth, the separating of the good figs from the bad figs, the wheat from the chaff, the sheep from the goats. If one rejects the gift, a goat they will be, but will they go to hell, my answer is a resounding, NO! Because when Jesus returns the time of grace comes to an end, and His sheep belong to Him, they already have their names written in the Book Of Life, they are those of the First Resurrection and they are blessed. But His 1000 reign on earth has a reason, it will be a time of teaching, of being disciplined, in the ways of God, it will be another time for decision making, for by good works and choosing Jesus, before one has to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment determines eternity for them. If belief on Jesus and enough good works(going out amongst other goats and helping them come to Jesus) are written in the other books, then the goat becomes one of those of the Second Resurrection, and their names are then written in the Book of Life, they will then take part in God's eternal kingdom. Those that do not choose God will not be cast into an eternal hell, God would have no such place in His kingdom. The still unrepentant goats will suffer the same fate as the one they still desire to follow, Satan, being consumed with a fire from within, poof, in one second they go up in flame and smoke, spiritual body and soul vanish, forever. No one of the First or Second Resurrection will mourn, nor shed a tear for them, for God removes them from the consciousness of His children, it will simply be as if they had never existed. It is God's desire to save as many of His created souls as possible, by belief and grace, or by belief and works, He wants to win over all to Himself. You may not believe your a sinner now, and that the I AM THAT I AM and Satan, are a made up fairytale, but everyone will see where they stand in the eyes of Almighty God when Jesus touches His feet on the Mt. of Olives at His return and the threshing begins!
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First you have to decide what evil is. Who decides what is evil? Who decides what is good? If you claim to be a good person who has never done evil, by what measure do you make this assessment?
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The doctrine of eternal torment is not a Biblical doctrine. Jesus came to offer us eternal life. If we already had it but it was a matter of where we spent it as eternal beings than He would have said it that way.
If you do not want to spend eternity in heaven with Him then you will be judged for what you have done (and we have all done things that will be judged for) then you will be meted out a just punishment that will be temporary and then you will perish.
God does not need to extort people into heaven. His gift is amazing enough that it is either accepted or rejected without a need to threaten with a horrific never ending punishment. I will debate anyone, fully, in their zeal to try to defend the doctrine of eternal torment.
God is love, the very definition of it. Can the creation be more compassionate and just than the creator? He doesn't need to threaten anyone to spend eternity with Him. The gift is priceless.
I hope you consider His amazing creation (apart from the destructive nature of man using their free will to make it a challenging place to live)
and seek Him with all your heart.
When you do meet Him in your seeking, you will want to humble yourself to His amazing grace and amazing love. It is the relationship all souls seek and brings a peace that surpasses all human understanding.
No religion needed.
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ctudor
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If you don't believe in God, Jesus or the Bible, it's a little awkward for those of us that do to tell you you're going to hell. Because we don't have a common belief system. All we as believers can really do is tell you what the Bible says about it. Which if you don't believe the Bible, really means nothing to you.
I would--if only for academic purposes--encourage you to read the Bible for yourself and specifically what Jesus said about it. Because he spoke quite frequently about both heaven and hell. Even if you don't believe, you'll at least have an intellectual understanding about the position Jesus/The Bible takes on it.
If you'd like a basic explanation on what Evangelical Followers of Jesus believe, I've authored an e-book written in a conversational style that you can download on Amazon.com. ($2.99) It's called Christianity for the Average Joe. I wish you the best.
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You say you are an atheist, fine, but just asking this question means you think that there may be a life after we pass from this life (much like a child in the womb has no concept of any other life than the one they are currently experiencing). If there is life after this life, what form will it take because we all know that wherever it is, the human body is not going since it is dead. That can only mean the next life is spiritual. This is a spiritual question which means that it is a question for God. Of course the question then becomes "which God?". All religions are basically some version of doing good in order to earn a good eternity (aka heaven), with one exception, Christianity. Christianity says no one is good, not one person, except Jesus. Jesus says accept my perfect life and death in place of your wickedness and I will share my heavenly home with you. Jesus offers this as a gift, but you have to accept it.
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RSLancastr
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nonbeliever314:
I haven't read this whole thread (not by a LONG shot), and I myself am Agnostic, but here is my understanding of the Christian take on your question:
Whether a person ends up in Heaven or in Hell after they die is NOT based on whether or not they had been a "good" or "evil" person in life (despite what novels and films have told us for centuries or more). No, it is simply based on whether or not the person "accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Personal Savior" before the person died.
So, assuming this is correct, neither you nor I is currently bound for Heaven when we die, but that can change if and when we "accept Jesus Christ as our Personal Savior" before we die.
The reasoning is this:
1. NOBODY (other than Jesus) has lived a life without sin.
2. Thus, NOBODY - no matter how "good" they have been in their life, deserves to be in Heaven, in the presence of God, where sin cannot exist.
3. Jesus - in part, due to His having lived a sinless life - was able to die on the cross, thus taking the blame for all the sins of mankind (Substitionary atonement).
4. But a person's sins are only taken away - the slate wiped clean, if you will - if they choose to receive that gift, by accepting Jesus as their own personal Savior, at which point all of their sins are absolved and are placed upon Jesus. Their sins no longer being in them, they are then able to be in the presence of God, and so, will be accepted into Heaven when they die.
...At least, that is my understanding of how Christians believe on the matter, gleaned mostly through my having attended a Baptist church regularly with my wife for the past four years or so.
-RSL
I haven't read this whole thread (not by a LONG shot), and I myself am Agnostic, but here is my understanding of the Christian take on your question:
Whether a person ends up in Heaven or in Hell after they die is NOT based on whether or not they had been a "good" or "evil" person in life (despite what novels and films have told us for centuries or more). No, it is simply based on whether or not the person "accepted Jesus Christ as his or her Personal Savior" before the person died.
So, assuming this is correct, neither you nor I is currently bound for Heaven when we die, but that can change if and when we "accept Jesus Christ as our Personal Savior" before we die.
The reasoning is this:
1. NOBODY (other than Jesus) has lived a life without sin.
2. Thus, NOBODY - no matter how "good" they have been in their life, deserves to be in Heaven, in the presence of God, where sin cannot exist.
3. Jesus - in part, due to His having lived a sinless life - was able to die on the cross, thus taking the blame for all the sins of mankind (Substitionary atonement).
4. But a person's sins are only taken away - the slate wiped clean, if you will - if they choose to receive that gift, by accepting Jesus as their own personal Savior, at which point all of their sins are absolved and are placed upon Jesus. Their sins no longer being in them, they are then able to be in the presence of God, and so, will be accepted into Heaven when they die.
...At least, that is my understanding of how Christians believe on the matter, gleaned mostly through my having attended a Baptist church regularly with my wife for the past four years or so.
-RSL
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It's the age-old question, and none of us really have a good answer. Long story short: no one really knows what God will choose to do with people like you. If you are as good as you claim to be, though, He will find a way to make Himself known to you. He'll want you in heaven and do what He needs to do make sure you get there.
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GillDouglas
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There are no requirements. God does not chose anyone for saving based on a system of merit.
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GillDouglas
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So one day you woke up and just stop believing in what you had learned?
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GillDouglas
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You would be mistaken. Those who believe like I do, should not and do not have a place to judge others. Our only responsibility is to present the idea of God, not convince you or convict you. It's God's responsibility to change your heart.
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