If ID is a theory

[MQTA]

I don't think anyone's paying attention. If ID is a scientific theory is has to be defined somewhere. Otherwise what is there to discuss? If you think that we can each have our own versions of what we think ID is... then it's not science.

One last chance, anyone? What's the scientific theory of intelligent design?

I just read where the root ideas of ID came from, it's actually called Atheistic Intelligent Design.

I'll re-reply to your post if it's not been mentioned yet. it's quite a radical idea, but it strangely seems to have more merit than any of the other ideas, once you sort out the cast of characters

 

[MQTA]

I don't think anyone's paying attention. If ID is a scientific theory is has to be defined somewhere. Otherwise what is there to discuss? If you think that we can each have our own versions of what we think ID is... then it's not science.

One last chance, anyone? What's the scientific theory of intelligent design?

Ok, nobody responded.

While CF was down I had a revelation and it all clicked.

I think there's 3 theories in the mix.

Evolution, which is our observation looking at timestamps going back in our timeline we think we see.

Creationism is the religious beliefs that an immaterial God created man out of dust, told us to stay stupid, and the girl ate a fruit a serpent told her and we 'fell'

Atheistic Intelligent Design isn't a theory, from the people who are telling their story, they're claiming the Creators of life on THIS planet ARE Eternal beings, but not much different from US. They found this planet to be perfect to sustain life, terraformed the planet a bit initially, and then learned how to create all the various life forms on this planet using DNA manipulation.

They say 25,000 years ago they started with this planet, which was already here, but covered evenly with water, and clouds. The ecosystem was water on the planet, evaporation to the clouds, and rain back down. They terraformed a bit by the equivalent of bulldozing a foundation, all the water flowed into it, and the dry land below the surface appeared (we have a theory about it, we call it Pangea)

13,000 years ago, after all the ecosystems were working well, they did the ultimate. They created Humans, using their DNA directly, and creates US -- in THEIR image --- and Likeness. All the other DNA crations were manipulations to make all the plants and life.

They go on to explain how in our infancy and lack of knowledge, they explained things to us on kids terms, and more and more as time went on. Unfortunately we kept getting the wrong idea and they used that to their advantage.

They told us the truth, but we couldn't comprehend it, so it was explained in the ancient writers terms and all the religions are built upon the observations, misunderstandings and we mistook them as Gods. Once the books were written and the teachings evolved from there, it just got more and more convoluted.

Our Creators claim they don't believe in God, a God, or a Creator of the ENTIRE universe. They only learned through scientific discoveries and experimentation HOW things worked, not necessarily why or where it all came from.

Much like us, now playing with DNA, they did so, but they're at it much longer than us, and learned how to do it. We're not inventing things in the last 60 years, we're just discovering what's always been. If WE can now do it, it seems feasible that that's how we're here. They also claim that that's how they came to be.. created, in the image and likeness of their creators.

Buddhism, The Bible, Koran, Book of Mormon, and other non-canon ancient writings are what we humans have been learning from, but the intent was so that when we could finally come to Understand, all the information will be in the preserved texts (earlier revelations to Man of the Truth, and how our ancients perceived what they were seeing and experienced) so we'll recognize them if/when they reveal this.

It's a fascinating concept. But it seems to make sense. The Bible, Koran and Book of Mormon aren't separate works by different people, they're supposedly serial revelations that we misunderstood and severely tangented from the scientific.

In their ebook they explain much of the texts, especially Genesis, 1 Kings and Revelation and some of the Koran. But with their Cast of Characters of the misunderstandings, then all the other texts make sense with that key.

So I'm really confused... 2 years of research with the ultimate irony in the last week. I think I understand a lot more now than I did before, but all the clues were there all along the way (the last 4 decades of my ponderings).

One Planet, One People, 7 races, all created by the Elohim, which is Hebrew for "those who come from the sky". And from what they're saying we really went off on the wrong tangent years ago and just keep going further and further away from what our science today is showing otherwise.

Of course, they CAN prove all this... but they say we need to stop believing ancient beliefs and start to understand the reality... realize our ancestral misunderstandings, and see that it really does say what they're claiming.

I try, but I just can't not see what I now think I see. It's just hard to undo all the years and layers of information that we've believed all these years.

Any questions? Don't attack the poster, just what was posted

 

[MQTA]

Now that I got all that out of the way, I'm going to respond to some of the other posts with what I got out of my last week's reading...

No problem.

1. ID is not based on a religion, but we all know the Designer is God.

Atheistic ID, which was first brought up from supposed events in 1973, 1975, and 1978, claims the Intelligent Designers designed the life on this planet (not the universe, genesis is only dealing with Earth) manipulating DNA. And then they did the ultimate, they created Man, with their own DNA, hence, in their Image and Likeness. They're called Elohim, mistaken and mistranslated as God(s).

So in AID, the Designers are 46 chromosomed beings, like us, but back then, very much smarter than we've become in just the last 60 years, but now close enough that they'd like us to start to understand it all.

2. ID is perfectly compatable with evolution, which is why we recommend the teaching of "the evidence against evolution," in public schools.

Atheistic ID claims that evolution happens by natural selection, within species, but that all original creations were done via DNA, created with instincts and ability to reproduce.

3. ID means following the evidence of design to its logical presumed conclusion.

They use a lot of the same words that people continually say by rote, which is close to the way things are, just not the way they were learned and [mis]understood.

4. ID is a scientific-research based examination of the obvious design of biological organisms, which makes no use of scientific research.

Hope that helps, Phred.

The first part is right, but the 2nd isn't. It's Pure science.. it's the age old beliefs that cloud the issue.

Their claims need no belief, it can be shown to be reality... it just may not be if we blow ourselves up by fighting over differences where there shouldn't be.

What an ironic twist!

 

[MQTA]

ID is the theory that if you take creationism and do a find/replace operation that effectively changes the word “god” to “designer” you will be able to sneak it into the science curriculum via religious advocates in power on the school board thereby circumventing the separation of church and state and driving a wedge into the secular science curriculum.

I gotta work on the replacement cast of characters... close though.. but no cigar


The Elohim: any number of extra-terrestrial scientist dna manipulators, creators of all life on this planet after some terraforming.

GOD: Translated incorrectly from Elohim, which means in Hebrew "those who come from the sky"

Lord: Yahweh, the council leader in charge of the Earth project

"Inspired Word of God" - the Truth, given to our Prophets, who's mindset couldn't understand science, so wrote in terms of their peers, rather than the Elohim. Boy did we get it wrong!

Angels of the Lord: any number of the Elohim, in their terrestrial suits with jet packs on their arms and legs. I guess they had what looked like wings to help them get around

Fallen Angel: those who were exiled or left here on earth, they weren't "taken up" back to their home planet.

Sons of God: reference to the Elohim

Sons of Man: humans

Satan: a governmental employee of the Elohim home planet who was claiming that we're horrible creations and should be done away with. He set out to prove it, saying Job loved Yahweh because of the wonderful life he had. So the deal was made to try to break him, Satan wanted to prove to Yahweh that if he lost everything, he'd hate Yahweh. Didn't work. When the test was over, Yahweh gave him back the lives that were taken. recreated from their original DNA, memory and all.

Michael, Gabriel, Uriel, Lucifer, and a whole list of names of "angels"... all the Elohim have names, just like we have names. Apparently they have name preferences above ours.. which have their own meanings. i.e. Simon became Peter, Saul became Paul, Jesus (they don't mention his original name)

Jonah's "big fish" (OT) and/or "whale" (NT) was a type of submarine -- to them it was a big fish or whale, today we'd call it a submarine. No supernatural reason for being able to "live 3 days inside the belly of a whale" if it were a sub like we know about

Jacob's Ladder: the steps that unfold from a space ship

Taken up: joining the elohim on their flying crafts

Moses' white cloud following them in the desert.. shining brightly by day (sun reflection?) and 'leading the way' at night (floodlights?)

The Burning Bush: illuminated by floodlights, what else would Moses think it was? He didn't understand artifical light, it must have been fire.. but it didn't burn up anything... hmmm...

Jesus' resurrection: the "angels" opened up the tomb and recreated him from his DNA they stored before the big 'event'

Noahs' Ark: this was a mind blower. After the Sons of God mated (gee, total dna/chromosomal compatibility?) with the Daughters of Men, the homeplanet goverment didn't like what was going on, they wanted to can the project and destroy all creation. Enoch was already taken up and with the Elohim, which would be why Noah was noticed and picked. Supposedly Noah, his family, and representative families from the other 6 races, were put on a Space ship, not a boat ship, WITH ALL the creations and life forms created here on Earth. Not living, breathing, eating, excreting animals and sea life, JUST their DNA in storage. They were 'saved' from the destruction of the life on this planet. They had to stay in the ship until the planet was habitable again.

Supposedly this is how the Pangea became all the other continents and still 'drift' today. The deluge (atomic bombardment?) is what created the multiple tectonic plates.. and it's why all the continents seem to fit as puzzle peaces. and maybe why, as JohnR7 always pointed out, Greenland seems to have Flipped.

There's also another thread here about 'meteors' hitting the earth, in a form of a pattern, and all seem to be 'from the same time frame'. Wow, another Match to their story!

As for Jesus and all the jargon about who he is, and the disagreement with the Koran and BoM comments about him being a man... they explain all that too.

In Genesis 6, the sons of the elohim, who created us, liked our female creations so much, they mated with them. This is half-breed race was The Jews. The other caucasians were not half-breeds.

Yahweh, however, wasn't involved with Gen 6, obviously, since he was told to destroy all the life here, as well as their 'fallen angels' in exile here. So when HE, himself, inseminated Mary, Jesus WAS, at that point in time at least, the ONLY Begotten Son of Yahweh.

As for Gen 2, the tree of knowledge didn't have fruits, it was a library and, unlike the previous versions of mankind, they didn't ask questions. But the ones we know as Adam and Eve, created in their image and likeness, did. They wanted to know, and one of the other elohim scientists (like a serpent) slithered in and told them the truth. And then their eyes were opened. They weren't not wearing clothing, they just now had more scientific knowledge than they could handle. They realized they knew nothing (were naked).

They say the Prophets, and Prophecy, did not SEE the future: the future didn't happen yet, they don't claim to know the future. The prophets were only revealed the truth, in terms they felt could be understood, each step of the way. Which is why the claim "never changes" makes people scratch their head wondering why all the writings seem to show a whole lot of change through time.

Yahweh's well known and often repeated statement "I am the Alpha and the Omega" means that before there was life on Earth, he existed, he was here first with the first recon crew. And if this planet goverment forces him to blow us to smitherines again, HE will still be around, hence, the last.

IN other words, if he has to destroy this planet, he was here first, and he'll still be here after we're gone.

The Eternals claim their bodies can go 700-1000 years, and when they're over 700, they dna create and clone a new body, move all the memory and experience over, and they're good for another 700 years.

We were originally created with that lifespan, our dna, like their dna. But after the Noah incident, they made us only with a 120 year span (and like light bulbs, they don't necessarily last that long in the field LOL)

There's a lot more... this didn't even scratch the surface. But, I dunno.. it does sound kinda like it all fits, all the missing and confusing puzzle pieces now make a lot more sense. Is it an understanding, or just another good story? We don't know now.. but some day we, or our offspring, may find out for sure.

They also don't Believe in an almight God who created everything... they didn't create the DNA rules, they just, like us, discovered how it works and how they can maniplate it.

Sorry this is so long, didn't have time to make it shorter

 

[MQTA]

ID is like evoultions but the ones who follow that theorie cannot comprehend that evolution guides itself based on the survival of the fittest, muttations, sexual selection, envirement, ect
So the conclude: it must be the work of a "disigner" (read the christian god) who guide evertring in the right direction.....

--
Ni Hao

That's the misunderstood belief of what ID is all about (i.e. the CG), but the claim from the AID claimers is different, as I wrote in my previous post.

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

Where did man get the ability to love, to be patient, to reason?

Such traits evolved.

These are not found in an unintelligent nature.

True.

Nothing cannot cause something.

Nobody here has suggested that it has. However, some aspects of quantum theory suggest that something can spontaneously form. Not from nothing, but then nothing doesn't exist. They just form.

You need to answer this, if you dare because you know where it will lead you to, right?

I can't answer it. Not in an acceptable way, at least.

And neither can you. God doesn't explain this. The only acceptable answer I have is "I don't know".

Good night.

Good morning.

 

[Erock83]

It's called Creationism... or Intelligent Design... I can't tell, because DevotiontoBible uses the terms interchangably, for some reason..

Well the more muddled the dialogue get the more likely a reader may think there is really a valid point with the text.
One Love

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

The first part is right, but the 2nd isn't. It's Pure science.. it's the age old beliefs that cloud the issue.

Where's the science?

Where's the peer reviewed, accepted research? The applications of ID?

Please, help me out here.

 

[Phred]

There is no "Theory of Intellgent Design."

Thus, there's nothing to teach our children is science classes. There is no controversy to teach as there isn't an alternative. There is only religious belief being foisted off upon the nation as "scientific."

It's ridiculous that this has gotten this far.

 

[MQTA]

it gets muddled because people have such radically different ideas, sometimes all based on the same pages read! we all have our own experiences, and years of awareness counts a lot.

You can live for 10 years of tests, lessons, and growth; or you can live 1 year and repeat it 9 more times. IT's easy, the calendar tells you what to do, what's coming, and then to do it.

Was just last week I was scoffing at ID, too. didn't really know what it was, only heard the religious side. now after reading the science side, I'm just dumbfounded. the biggest ironic shock ever, and I've seen soap operas on tv, and mystery movies. This takes the cake. This is more shocking than 9/11, JFK, Pearl Harbor, all rolled into one.

It's like seeing two naked people, in a position of authority over you, um, involved, can YOU make believe you didn't see what you saw? and even more so, can the ones you saw, go back to before it? You have to figure out what happens now.

I think there's still a lot of unanswered questions, but so many *click*'s at once. If it's not the real deal, well, it sure fits much better than any angle I ever tried before. Sounds far fetched, esp at first... could be just another confirmation bias plausible explanation.. though, of all the explanations, hand waving, semantical dancing, this is the first thing that made sense and it tied together a lot of year's past ponderings that were dismissed or the jury's still out on. Was like all the rest were lining up dominos and this one started the tumble.

There were few other things in the last few decades that did that, not in this venue/topic, per se, but actually related in some way, reinforced and confirmed. That was Wayne Dyer's earliest books, and through his later books in the early 90s, and some other material, and ideas, and they still apply today. Passes the test of time, and timeless. Like the first time I was taken to a chiro, their explanation and theory made sense, and 16 years later, still makes sense.

But with what they said, and showed, the bible seems to read differently. No super natural, just science.. things, before the last 60-100 years would probably be seen similarly, or at least just as misunderstood, as any time in our known history. They say these prophets weren't telling of a known future, they say time is in a forward motion, as well as the past no longer exists. They were revealing some scientific information and we thought they were god's, not beings in flying crafts, or 'angels' wearing terrestrial flying suits with jet packs and stabilizing gear.

whether or not this group has real reality, or is the ones they say they are, the idea seems to pan out. Make a Cast of Characters list, and it all simply, straight forward in most cases, just makes more sense. We can see that now because of our recent history of medical, industrial and information advances, and imagine how we'd react to them.

We know about planes and helicopters and rocket ships, we imagine other ships in our sci fi imagination -- and we've had authors strangely writing about 'future transport'... Jules Verne. The thing is, he wasn't predicting a future invention, our discoveries aren't of things that never were, they're just new to us. We're learning more and more of what already is, nothing new 'under the sum' LOL How would someone in 1640 react to a cell phone? or a 747, or the space shuttle?

ID could actually hold a lot of answers, maybe not.. but without digging and digging into what the original ID theorists are actually saying, one can't know.

What seems to be thought of with reference to ID is with reference to the ancient beliefs of who the ID entitie(s) were/are. If all the prophets/messengers/revealers were just a long line of visited, some more 'special' than others, then their books are stories of alien contact -- but NOT 'alien' to >us<, only alien to this planet. Same for a supernatural immaterial God (which the bible doesn't describe, it may imply, but the words surely show more than one, with their own names, and to a 21st century view, could be flying crafts and submarines). They could be our creators, which is exactly what they're saying all the ancient writings are saying, through and through, through buddhism (without the mysticism, is supposedly their philosophy), the ot, the nt, the koran and bom. Even Enoch. The terminology sparks a different view because that's how people interpretted it all the way through, and then reinforced and built upon that slightly different mistranslation, and we've been trying to make it fit ever since.

But change God to Yahweh, and understand who Yahweh really is, then it logically answers a lot of 'sayings', plainly. Angels are other elohim interacting with us. they could fly with jet packs, they wore suits and could navigate their eway round... we saw them as wings, like birds, but they coulda been like our airplane wings. We saw halo's... the thin glass bubble of an astronauts suit, all glass type, unlike our moon visit ones that were solid in the back, would cause a halo effect with the light, around the top. Fallen angels are the elohim who were living with us in gen 6, the scientists who were exiled here for a while. they obviously were without those flying aparatus suits and stayed on the ground with us. and they mated with us in gen 6.

It just reads so much easier this way. 10-60 years ago, it may have been feasible.. my friends and I through the years thought about that concept, laughed, said NAH, couldn't be... but yeah, it could be. who'd ever have even thought or considered it, before Orville and Wilbur? But now... yeah...wow.. it could be. that would be some joke on us, no?

 

[Erock83]

There is no "Theory of Intellgent Design."

Thus, there's nothing to teach our children is science classes. There is no controversy to teach as there isn't an alternative. There is only religious belief being foisted off upon the nation as "scientific."

It's ridiculous that this has gotten this far.

Well I think the understanding of the nature of God if you are so inclined to believe in one or many is very academic and has implications to science but you are correct in your assertion that it in and of itself is not a pure science like say chemistry.
One Love

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

I don't think "pseudoscience" can count as the science side, really.

But do go on. Give us your evidence and research. Enquiring minds are dying to know.

You have yet to say anything even remotely scientific on the subject, from what I've seen.

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

Well I think the understanding of the nature of God if you are so inclined to believe in one or many is very academic and has implications to science but you are correct in your assertion that it in and of itself is not a pure science like say chemistry.
One Love

What implications?

 

[MQTA]

Where's the science?

Where's the peer reviewed, accepted research? The applications of ID?

Please, help me out here.

http://www.clonaid.com/news.php ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2764039.stm

http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9905/26/dolly.clone.02/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/02/14/cloned.dolly.dies/

 

[Erock83]

I don't think "pseudoscience" can count as the science side, really.

But do go on. Give us your evidence and research. Enquiring minds are dying to know.

You have yet to say anything even remotely scientific on the subject, from what I've seen.

No but its pretty and fluffy and a great appeal to pathos, oh wait I’m no longer in the political threads. Yeah what he said.
One Love

 

[MQTA]

There is no "Theory of Intellgent Design."

Thus, there's nothing to teach our children is science classes. There is no controversy to teach as there isn't an alternative. There is only religious belief being foisted off upon the nation as "scientific."

It's ridiculous that this has gotten this far.

Yeah, that's what I thought too, right up until last Thursday. But I've been doing a lot of reading and thinking about this since then. Trying to sort it all out and reconcile it.

Care to read the 390 pages in the pdf file and then revisit these questions? Then you can show me what I'm just missing here.

This is totally unexpected and I can't just put it in the recycle bin.

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

http://www.clonaid.com/news.php ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2764039.stm

http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9905/26/dolly.clone.02/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/02/14/cloned.dolly.dies/

I'm well aware of Dolly's death. As aware as I am that you have STILL not provided any evidence. Unless, of course, Dolly's death is your evidence. Is it?

If so I point you to telomeres.

 

[Erock83]

What implications?[/size][/font]

Like the answer to where, when, how, and why God may or may not be entered into a scientific explanation. Or how theisms, rational thought, reason, and science and co-exits. I guess if you really wanted to stick it with a label it would be a theological ethic of science, thus not a ‘science’ yet an idea and questions of which scientist should concern them selves with. Not sure if you have read this one yet but this would be a good example of the implications.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2560106-idism-and-yec-are-bad-kidsmmmk.html

One Love

 

[ThePenguinMafia]

Like the answer to where, when, how, and why God may or may not be entered into a scientific explanation. Or how theisms, rational thought, reason, and science and co-exits. I guess if you really wanted to stick it with a label it would be a theological ethic of science, thus not a ‘science’ yet an idea and questions of which scientist should concern them selves with. Not sure if you have read this one yet but this would be a good example of the implications.

http://www.christianforums.com/t2560106-idism-and-yec-are-bad-kidsmmmk.html

One Love

Those words don't even make sense. Could you repeat it please?

If it's what I think it is then my response is that you're misunderstanding the limits of science. To the best of my knowledge, we cannot discover the nature of god using scientific methods.

 

[Split Rock]

http://www.clonaid.com/news.php ?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2764039.stm

http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9905/26/dolly.clone.02/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/02/14/cloned.dolly.dies/

None of this is evidence that aliens came here 20,000 years ago (or whenever), terra-formed the earth and created life here.

Where is the evidence for any of this? I could provide you with just as much evidence for little invisible pink faires doing the same. I can't understand why you find this AID stuff so persuasive.